rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

I am currently building a EM1 from the ground up, I have my entire suspension completely stripped, all bushing removed for new ones and getting sand blasted. (this includes the front subframe, control arms, sway bars, rear trailing arms.) I was thinking that instead of painting or super expensive powder coating I would zinc plate them. All my bolts and nuts are currently being cleaned and de-rusted and it was cheap.
My main reason for considering this is not for Appearance reasons at all, I just chose forum because its more related it, and these parts are not visible from outside, its entirely based on the reason for rust control and ease of maintenance, I HATE RUST! Zinc plating would prevent future rusting and keep it a nice a tidy project.

what do guys think?

toyomatt84

iTrader: (1)

SHG_EasyE did that.

ShinsenTuner

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There are methods of doing it on your own, I have read several articles and threads online pertaining to this (google it). It's not an uncommon thing to be done and is relatively straight forward. There are also kits online you can buy to do this at home.

It makes a big difference in a restoration project for sure. Good luck.

burnoutboy

iTrader: (22)

Do eeet... in for finished pics.


How thick is zinc plating? Would it *** with thread tolerances and ****?

toyomatt84

iTrader: (1)

I don't know why you think plating lasts longer then powder coating, but that's not entirely true.

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

seems legit. threads are still usable.
this pic did no justice to the quality

EFSedan#6

iTrader: (3)

Wow. True dedication.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Clear ZP is not that resistant to rust compared to an organic or polymer coat. Notice your subframe is less rusted than your bolts.

Yellow ZP is a bit better and honda uses it currently...but still not really all that resistant.

E-coating with powder on top is the best way. E-coat by itself is great too. But requires a LOT of prep. Parts need to be non-heat sensitive, up to 350-400°. And they can't be used for electric conduction.

Powder coat by itself is your best bet for ease of application combined with rust prevention on any metal part thats not heat sensitive (350-400°F). Pressure wash the chassis often to keep it clean of salt. Or don't drive in salt lol. Powder is also non conductive.

Powder and E-coat last so long because they're not conductive. Oxidizing is an electro-chemical reaction. Basically going from metal to ceramic. Water is the catalyst. The chemicals (road salts, other metals, etc) in the water cause the reaction.

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

powder coating the bolts would be counter productive in my opinion, due to the pact that it will change the size of the threads.

I wanted to do powder coat the suspension parts but it would have cost me over 1000 euros even though I prepped the material by sand blasting.

I will use anti seize on the bolts to prevent future issues.
I don't plan to drive the car in winter and hope I never have to. probably a weekend warrior track and trailer queen.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

I guess I wasn't clear. Don't powder coat bolts. I was talking about the suspension parts. For 1000 euros, you could buy an oven and a powder gun.

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

yep. things tend to get overpriced here sometimes, so that's why I was surprised on the price I paid to coat the bolts.

ShinsenTuner

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, any coating like paint or PC on threads is a big no no. Internal threads are impossible to control as well.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

E-coat or ZP work fine with threads. ZP is a bit more clean. ZP is a great coating for bolts. I'm not sure if they make high strength stainless bolts. I dont recall seeing anything commonly available.

I'd use stainless for sway bars and other non critical/low stress parts, though.

lostforawhile

they usually put in a rubber plug where there are internal threads, before powder coating, if any gets in the threads, a simple chase with a tap will clean it out. powder coat is your best rust preventative on the suspension parts

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

I am a strong believer in Honda OEM chassis/suspension bolts being supreme over all other manufacturer bolts except for ARP.
I always found it funny on the control arm dress up bolts that they sell on ebay.

hungrygreen_gsr

Does Honda produce they're own hardware or a supplier does it for them?

I've always been curious about that. I too feel they have excellent hardware.

lostforawhile

hardware is hardware, as long as it's the correct grade fasteners, correct thread etc, threads and thread pitch are standards, just stay away from the bargain basement chinese cheap crap, if you are worried about it, buy hardware meeting the AN standards, which is military spec, they have to meet very specific standards, and you know there is no variance in the quality, if it's good enough to hold an aircraft together it's plenty good enough to hold your car together

B serious

iTrader: (1)

AN standard? You mean Milspec?

Milspec fasteners mean many things....depending on application. Don't blindly buy milspec fasteners and expect them to work for every application.

Honda doesn't make hardware.

99.9% of the screw/bolt fasteners on the car are class 10.9 (metric) hardware. Class 10.9 metric is similar in strength to a Grade 8 standard bolt. I believe flywheel bolts are class 12.9, which is similar to a grade 9 standard bolt.

Strength and construction wise, any bolt in the same class is the same. Hardware store or dealer spec. The markings are on the head of the bolt. Honda's bolts sometimes have a dichromate ZP (yellow) coating on it, which resists corrosion a little better than clear zinc. Some bolts from the dealer are specialty bolts that honda got custom made.

I wouldn't be surprised if each car maker has their own standard for wrench size and head shapes. Honda's bolts have different wrench sizing and head shape than Toyota or Ford or whomever else.

lostforawhile

when I specified military spec, I'm referring to the materials, etc in the bolt, yes of course you still have to use the correct grade etc, but you will get consistent parts, as far as the bolt head sizes, Honda and most Japanese manufacturers tend to use standard hex heads, but in even sizes, 8-10-12-14 with the exception of 17 and 19, which are the main two odd sizes they use, German manufacturers tend to like odd size metrics, 11-13-15 etc, I'm lucky enough to have a local hardware store that actually carries real hardware, in high strength grades, metric stainless too, the only real difference I've found is sometimes instead of a 12 hex size hex head, sometimes the aftermarket bolts tend to have a 13, it hasnt been an issue though, I know you can get high strength stainless metrics from MSC, but it's not cheap, but could be useful in suspension bolts if you live in an area with road salt

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

its kinda hard for me to believe that the bolts used in Honda cars are not specifically for Honda, I've owned and worked on many different cars, and the design and specs of the bolts used for Hondas are never found to the be the same in other manufacturer except for when Honda and rover and Suzuki did some joint work. the look of the bolts used in Hondas just seems like more care was put into it, not even BMW or Audi has the quality look of Honda bolts. Strength and thread may be the same claim, but compared side to side Honda just do it right.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

I would not use high strength stainless bolts on suspensions.

class 10.9 alloy bolts are made from 4140 steel or similar. And then they are heat treated to give them their levels of yield and tensile strength. When considering a design, you design around yield strength (with a factor of safety).

Yield strength is where stainless steels are lacking when compared to heat treated...or even sometimes standard carbon steels or free machining steels.

Stainless bolts are more prone to bending. I don't remember what the yield strengths are on 17-4 high strength stainless bolts...but I do not believe it it as high as a class 10.9 fastener.

Honda uses unique head sizing as compared to the thread sizing.

Most M8 bolts have a 13mm head.
Honda M8 bolts have a 12mm head.

Most M12 bolts have a 18mm head.
Honda uses 17mm.

Honda's bolts are class 10.9. A class 10.9 bolt HAS to have a proof load of 120ksi, min yield strength of 130ksi and min tensile strength of 140ksi (IIRC). Heat treated alloy steels are strong, but often a bit more brittle.

A 10.9 bolt is a 10.9 bolt. Doesn't matter who made it. If it's not the same strength and style, it is not a grade 10.9 bolt. There is an ASTM, SAE, or other regulation for bolts. This covers everything from manufacturing conditions, materials, strengths, mechanical properties, and coatings. If there weren't people making these standards...it would be INCREDIBLY difficult and expensive to manufacture anything.

Whether other manufacturers use 10.9 or equivalent standard grade 8 bolts on almost everything, I'm not sure. Honda uses 10.9 bolts on almost everything. Maybe this is the difference you are seeing in bolt quality between Honda and other manufacturers.

Honda has unique head sizing and appearance bolts. Most manufacturers do have unique LOOKING bolts. When I see an odd Nissan or Toyota bolt mixed into my bolt bin, I know that it's not a Honda bolt...even before I consider the thread sizing or head sizing. Any company can tell their manufacturer or vendor that they want a bolt made to their specifications of style. Again...this is independent of classing or grades. Those are set.

I cannot imagine that Honda makes their own hardware. Making hardware is an incredibly expensive and very rigorous process. Even with the volume of hardware that Honda uses...I REALLY doubt they make their own hardware. It would be insanity.

I work for an OEM. We do not make our own hardware. Nor do I know other OEMs that make their own hardware.

But...maybe you're saying that whichever manufacturer honda chose to make bolts makes them to better than required tolerances, better than required coatings, and head designs/coatings that allow a more controlled amount of tension as a result of a given torque value...then yeah, I may be able to go along with it. Honda is a big enough company to specify things like that from their parts manufacturers.

ferio-ichi3

Whats the ballpark cost of getting things zinc plated?

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

my cost may be different than the Average price.
I got a hookup deal of a lifetime, 20 euros for USPS large flat rate box full of bolts and brackets, around 12kg maybe the guy was impressed that I was an American speaking broken German but none less I was trying to speak his language, that's what I believe I've noticed when I straight speak English I get bad service, but when I speak the language I even get them to speak English to me. sorry I have a tendency to digress on simple answers.

other friends came before and after me and got charged 80 euros for 1 kg of bolts.

ferio-ichi3

Are you jamaican? I noticed the flag, and the w in boy.

rudebwoy

iTrader: (1)

yes Jamaican born and raised, naturalized American citizen .