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Old 03-13-2008, 05:50 PM   #1
 
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Default timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Doing the timing belt on my 96 Accord LX 2.2L (not VTEC) and I pulled the "balancer timing belt" off. The balance shafts both rotated away from the position they were in, so I have no idea how to get the timing between them right.

The Haynes manual says to unbolt some plugs and put in long 6mm bolts to get both balance shafts in the right location. When I do this it seems like I am just putting the bolt through a hole which passes all the way through the balance shaft. That implies to me that I could have the shaft 180 degrees off and still put everything together per the manual.

What does the balance shaft look like? If I am 180 degrees off, is it symmetric so it doesn't matter?
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Old 03-13-2008, 06:02 PM   #2
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L (odo53)

I am sure TouringAccord's write-up will help you.
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1908944
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Old 03-13-2008, 07:30 PM   #3
 
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L (billyrusa)

Yes, that is a great write up and I appreciate the work that went into it. But it says the same thing as my manual, put a 6mm by 100mm bolt through the rear balance shaft. My question remains, how do you know if the balance shaft is in the right orientation or if it is 180 degrees off?
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Old 03-13-2008, 07:45 PM   #4
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L (odo53)

When put the tool (or a screw driver) all way down the hole, the rear balance shaft will be locked at the right position. You will not be able to turn the shaft when it is locked.
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L (odo53)

I get what you are asking...
The hole should not be on the center of the shaft, but rather offset from center which would only allow for it to locate one way.

This should help answer your question...

click to enlarge
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Old 03-14-2008, 05:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L (odo53)

on the rear pulley there is a dot stamped into it by one of the teeth; Then when it is in the correct position it lines up with a casting boss line at about the 5'O' clock position.
if you are not replacing that oil pump seal [because you like oil leaks] then there is no need to pull that bolt out on the rear of the block, and stick an alignment pin thru the countershaft.
Look at this lude pic and you will see the mark lining up with the casting line beside the bolt.
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 03-15-2008, 04:20 PM   #7
 
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L (hondadude)

Thanks TouringAccord, that picture was worth a thousand words, exactly addresses my dilemma even if I didn't state it very well.

And thanks hondadude. I see your point about the oil pump seal...
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Old 05-01-2010, 09:16 AM   #8
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

On a 93 Accord i notice that the rear balance plug will accept a pin in different locations.

Here's the strange part, it seems to change. If I put the plug in, then take it out and rotate it back to the same position, the pin won't necessarily go in.The point being that simply lining it up with the housing is not necessarily correct.

I don't think they would have gone thru the trouble of having a plug alignment and a tool for it (using a pin plug) if it wasn't necessary.

My guess is that something internally is being aligned, but not really sure...

Can someone verify that?

Thanks
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Old 05-01-2010, 09:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

I can get mine to look like post #6, but if I rotate it and bring it back to that position, I can't get the pin in, but I can get it in somewhere else....

Seems like I can get it in in 4 different locations....

Car was running fine.
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Old 05-01-2010, 02:49 PM   #10
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingrey View Post
I can get mine to look like post #6, but if I rotate it and bring it back to that position, I can't get the pin in, but I can get it in somewhere else....

Seems like I can get it in in 4 different locations....

Car was running fine.
Correct. You can jam the bolt/pin in 4 different spots. However, only one spot will allow the bolt/pin to fully seat at the correct length.
6mm bolt x 100mm and mark it 74mm from the end.
I marked the bolt I had with a marker then used tape to mark the bolt for easy visual.

Don't rely too heavily on the Prelude pictured engine in post #6. Although the basic architecture is the same between the engines, they are subtle differences. I can tell you that on a '95 Accord EX there aren't any definite discernible markings for the sprocket or face of the engine. I suspect this is why Honda recommends the pin/bolt method, you can work it 'blind' but still get the timing correct.

I pulled the bolt out an reset it in every position til I was happy with the correct set. Make sure you place the bolt in perpendicular to the balance shaft, you can fudge it a bit and get the bolt at a weird angle if you are not careful.
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:00 PM   #11
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

I marked the pin plug with a line 74mm (2.9") from the tip.

I could easily put it in in each of the positons beyond the 74mm. They all felt identical, no angles, no forcing.

The wierd thing is they were not readily repeatable. If I made a revolution, I clould not place the pin in that position any more, untill I rotatated it a few more times. there must be something else going on there.

The point is, don't reley on marking that sprocket, make sure you use a pin plug.

In any case, I got the car back together, no vibrations, runs fine.
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Here's exactly how it's done

This is the hole the pin/bolt goes trough. That's why you need to make sure it's the correct diameter and the good depth because it could sit on the edge.

Click the image to open in full size.

Tadaa!

Click the image to open in full size.

Ahh the joy of having a non working engine for tests and spare parts!
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Old 05-02-2010, 04:17 AM   #13
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Beautiful! Thanks for the pictures...
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Old 05-06-2010, 03:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Just out of curiosity...

Any idea why Honda goes thru all the trouble to have hole in the shaft and access port vs using an alignment mark on the pulley??

How is the pully attacked is it a press fit?
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:53 PM   #15
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan007 View Post
Here's exactly how it's done

This is the hole the pin/bolt goes trough. That's why you need to make sure it's the correct diameter and the good depth because it could sit on the edge.

Click the image to open in full size.

Tadaa!

Click the image to open in full size.

Ahh the joy of having a non working engine for tests and spare parts!
so how do you test a non-working engine? LOL
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Old 05-15-2010, 01:32 PM   #16
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingrey View Post
Any idea why Honda goes thru all the trouble to have hole in the shaft and access port vs using an alignment mark on the pulley??
The Honda engineers had the foresight to realize that the original design would be changed/modified. With the engine installed it is not possible to see the alignment marks head on as the front frame rail is in the way. The bolt allows alignment of the pulley 'blind'.
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Old 08-29-2010, 10:03 PM   #17
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Just to add for future searches. I just did this on my F23A7 in my 98 Odyssey. My pulley has the mark seen in picture #6, and the flange on the pulley has a little v mark and a round mark that line up perfectly with a mark on the block at 12o'clock when the bolt is in and the other mark is around 5 o'clock. Yes, there are like 4 positions the bolt goes in, but only one where it feels "right".
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:56 AM   #18
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Hey Mark, i see what you are saying. Im gonna try this in a few.. thanks!
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Old 04-02-2011, 06:04 PM   #19
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Thanks for posting this additional info on setting the rear balance shaft position... the 74mm tape-on-a-bolt trick was exactly what I needed to solve my problem.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:19 AM   #20
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

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Originally Posted by MAD_MIKE View Post
The Honda engineers had the foresight to realize that the original design would be changed/modified. With the engine installed it is not possible to see the alignment marks head on as the front frame rail is in the way. The bolt allows alignment of the pulley 'blind'.
Mike outside of the frame rails possibly moving from car to car...what is the redesigned engineering marvel that came way of this that endears the "foresight" involved here?
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:31 AM   #21
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

Thanks to the fella who posted the Pics of this incredibly mysterious not mentioned in the manuals engineering masterpiece. It does help some.

At the same token....some comments state this almost ludicrous layout can STILL be mismanaged....there still seems to be 4 different ways as described in postings for this thing to go into the mystery shaft.

Does anyone have a firm no nonsense writeup handy on this subject?

Even from reading here it is very unclear as to what to do afterwards the freagin oil gear unit under the water pump clearly has a marking dimple on it....to align to what seems to be just a line casted to the front of the oil pump. Does that matter or not?

This very frustrating. This should be covered in the other write up posted just for informational purposes...it should be added on how to do this correctly....yes it is part of replacing the timing belt. Also that write up is missing replacing the seals....which I cannot fathom why anyone should just ignore taking the opportunity to replace them. Which brings me to why I took this oil gear unit under the water pump off....altho with great intentions to replace the seal there....I do regret doing so....the time loss is incredible. and the coverage even from Honda is very minimal.

is it possible we could all get away from the millimetric definitions and use conventional inches? its obvious we are all honda fans but really that bolt stuck up in that picture does not look like a delibirate explicit dimension size requiring millimetrics to describe it.

Can anyone pan out a fair and clear write up on reinstalling the oil gear unit without a mistake or witnessing bad vibrations afterwards?
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:20 PM   #22
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

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Originally Posted by L2ILL View Post
Can anyone pan out a fair and clear write up on reinstalling the oil gear unit without a mistake or witnessing bad vibrations afterwards?
Let me begin by saying, I hope someone will jump in and correct me if I got this wrong.

Here is what I think will help.

That rear balance shaft (which I thought was also referred to as the oil pump drive) has a 12mm bolt behind it (on the back of the engine, just a little about the gear - you can't miss it.) Remove that bolt, and get a flashlight.

Now, if you rotate the rear balance shaft gear, and look in that hole, you will see the balance shaft rotating...keep rotating and you will notice a hole in the balance shaft - you will, just get enough light in the hole, and you will see it.

Your rear balance shaft gear has two markings on it...one round dot, and one v shaped groove. the v shaped groove should be at the top, and the round dot should be at about 5 o'clock...with those two markers set, look to see if you can spot the hole in the balance shaft...if you can, I believe you are in time.

One other thing I have been told (dear lord, I hope someone with more knowledge jumps in if I am wrong on this)...the rear balance shaft wants to find it's TDC...so if you spin it, and take your finger off, it should stop close to where it needs to be...I got this from Eric the Car guy, who I think is a fair mechanic. I tried it, and after two spins, the v notch lined up with the hole in the balance shaft...

I'm in no rush to get this car back together, but when I do, I will report back with the results
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:01 PM   #23
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

sorry for the quality of the video, but I believe this is the correct way to set the rear balance shaft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcrvchGkJdA
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:47 AM   #24
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

I noticed there is no retainer on the FRONT balance shaft seal. Plan on installing one? Also anyone know how to pull out a front balance shaft seal once it is found to be leaking?
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:30 AM   #25
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Default Re: timing of balance shafts 96 Accord 2.2L

yes, if there is no retainer installed you should install one.

As for removing/installing the seal, I posted this link in the other thread you asked this in but here you go anyways...

How-To: Replace Timing Belt, Timing Balancer Belt and Water Pump on a F22B1
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