condor22

Dear Experts,

I have a 1996 Honda Accord
2.2 VTEC motor
Manual 5 speed shift
About 253K miles


The clutch plate between the motor and transmission is still original.
Not bad.

But the master and slave hydraulic cylinders
have been changed multiple times.

The symptom is that the clutch pedal will only
engage close to the floor. When it gets really bad, I
have to put my toe under the pedal and pull the pedal
back up.

The last time the master and slave cylinders were
changed was about 2 years ago. But it
took five tows to the shop that year.
First just the master. Then the slave.
Then, one of them got fixed on warranty.
Sigh.

It happened again recently. So, I immediately
took it to the same transmission repair shop
that I had before.

They wanted to use OEM parts from Honda.
But they are multiples more expensive.
So, I said to use aftermarket.
Unfortunately, the only use one supplier.
They won't use NAPA, or any other store.

They told me that they had a lot of trouble
bleeding the system. Apparently, 6 hours of work.
They kept it into the next day.

Yesterday, I got the car back.
Immediately, the clutch pedal was down near
the floor again. I assumed that they hadn't
adjusted the free play, and gave them a call
to tell them. They said to bring it back
after their backlog.

I drove the car for an errand later that night.

Then, today, I went to drive it again.

This time, I could start the engine.

But the clutch pedal went all the way to the floor and
would not return. Again, I had to lift the pedal
with my toe. Sigh.


I'm actually convinced that the original design of these
components is bad. Dorman, will make some of their
after market components (window regulator) better than
the original, and you can see the difference.
But every component that I've looked at online, all
look the same. No over or re engineering.


Questions:

When the pedal goes to the floor, won't return,
and I need to use my toe, which cylinder is
the culprit? The master or slave?

Is it possible to get a break in the hydraulic lines?
Other than the master and slave cylinders,
what are the other parts in the line that might fail?

Is there a machine that is used to test or bleed the system
that should be used?

Is OEM that much better than after market?

Any other ideas?


Thanks a lot!

Aradin

Most of the aftermarket clutch/hydraulic components are fine to use as an OE replacement. You don't need to spend a fortune on OEM components.

The slave is easily checked by visual inspection. You can look at it where it's connected to the transmission and see if it's leaking. If there isn't a bunch of fluid around it/on it and the reservoir is full, it's unlikely that it's bad.

The master cylinder can also be visually inspected for leaks. You can check where it's attached to the firewall and also inside the car where it connects to the pedal. Most of the time they will leak inside the car and cause fluid to run down onto the carpet/floor mats. Again, if the reservoir is full and you see no signs of leakage the master cylinder is unlikely to be bad.

If those both look fine, trace the lines and look for leaks. I believe there is a dampener assembly near the transmission that can sometimes leak(may not be present on all models). If you can't find any leaks, high probability it just hasn't been bled or adjusted correctly.

Davesmit

Ahhhha Condor22! You are in luck today. I am no expert, but I may shed some light on your misfortunes with the car! I had same problem you had this past summer and finally got it resolved! At one point it got pretty bad while I was driving with an intern and I even pulled to the side of the road to have a look under the hood thinking the slave cylinder sprang a leak. But as it turned out the slave was not the culprit. It took a lot of work and time and money to get it right I went thru 3 master cylinders! The only way I was able to correctly bleed the system was from a special technique I saw in a YouTube video. Search in YouTube the following: How to Bleed a Clutch, Fast, The Best Way. It has about 368k views.

Now, the reason I also had to go thru 3 master cylinders before I got it working was because there was a small leak where the hardline (the one that eventually goes to slave cylinder) connects to the master cylinder. Touch your fingers around it and under the master cylinder there and see if it gets slightly wet. I was getting air sucked in via that hardline connection only when releasing the clutch so then the fluid leaked at the connection only when the clutch pedal was depressed (so easy to miss by eyesight since so small a leak) You need to feel it to spot it! The only master cylinder that ended up working to seal that air leak was the super expensive Honda OME just because it has a, yellow hue, soft brass contact point inside the master cylinder port where the hardline from the slave cylinder connects to it and this gave a good connection that was finally air tight! Keep in mind, that you have to bench bleed the master cylinder first, then install it under the hood (but while doing this keep that port that connects to hardline plugged airtight and don't depress the master cylinder plunger. Once the master cylinder is hand tightened to the firewall fill to the top the reservoir and unplug the hardline port while trying to thread in the hardline to the master cylinder all the while brake fluid is leaking out but do not allow the reservoirs fluid to completely empty to the master cylinder itself via the reservoir else air gets into the master cylinder and that's bad. After this refill the reservoir and do the bleed system per YouTube video I mentioned above.

Further thoughts:
It does not help that your clutch plate is still original after so much time and mileage (if clutch plate lasts 100k you did fantastic, now over 200k it means you really gotta change not only her but the pressure plate, thrust bearing and pilot bushing and a bland new flywheel is a must is you don't want to mess with shimming it). In my opinion, when a clutch has so much mileage on it you need to look under the steering column where the clutch pedal is and should notice that the pedal does not contact the "hard stopper" which means the cylinder in the master cylinder is absorbing the stopping force instead of the hard stopper because it does not make it there anymore; this is not good for longevity of the master cylinder. So I cut a small section of PVC pipe and duct tapped it by the hard stopper such that the clutch pedal mechanism contacts the pvc pipe just before the master cylinder's cylinder does.

I have a 91 Accord LX with manual transmission and 205k miles and also still original clutch plate! But currently working to get it changed myself and it has been a lot of work and figuring things out.

Good luck and it makes me smile when I see people trying to get every penny outta their beater cars!

Cheers,

Dave

Slow&Steady

Good job Dave! What a reply man. Hopefully that helps this member out.

19Accord97

If the system is leaking, get rid of the damper system all together. You can call a company called Bonnaco and tell them you have a Honda Accord and need a stainless steel line directly from the master cylinder to the slave cylinder. The guy will know exactly what you're talking about and it should run around $90. Guy who convert their automatic 5th gens to manual do this (including myself). Was super easy and comes with the correct fittings already attached, not to mention it is a stainless steel braided line.

condor22

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Especially when they speak from so much experience.

I do appreciate it!

condor22

The clutch is fixed finally.

After the December fix, the master only
lasted one day! And had to be fixed
on warranty again. Sigh.

I'm convinced that Honda's design of the
master and slave cylinders is faulty.

Mine have been changed at least 4
times now (only 250K miles)

And every picture online looks Exactly the same.
No different designs as I've seen Dorman
do with window regulators (much better
than original).

Aftermarket manufacturers:
This could be your big business opportunity.

Build a super duper overbuilt
master and slave cylinder for Honda clutches.

You'll probably do really well with that investment.

GhostAccord

What was the final fix for your issue?

Did you ever try an OEM part vs the re-mans that you had to keep getting replaced under warranty? After the first two failures I would have tried OEM parts. Despite what people on the forums told you. A lot of times OE parts are of better quality, not to mention, they are usually New and not rebuilt. Sure they may cost more, but I'm sure it would have saved you time in the shop.

I can tell you with great confidence that this is not an issue with Honda's design. I've seen 90-97 Accords go a lifetime without ever having to replace the cylinders. The slave and master in my 96 are still in perfect working order.