LSV84

ok i've replaced so far:
-fuel pump(unrelated)
-fuel filter(thought was related)
-spark plugs
-distributor cap+rotor
-o2 sensor
-checked plug wires for proper resistance with multimeter and they were up to spec
-checked coil for proper resistance and primary was .9ish(should be between .6 and .8 ..kinda works it way down.. meaning when i put the tester on it goes from something high to around 1.3or4->1.2-1.1->sits at 1.0 for around 15-20secs and then goes to 0.9 where it stays) secondary resistance is within spec

car is a 90 ex-r manual tranny with 203km

symptoms:
-jerks during acceleration. i don't know any better way to describe it...i think it could also be called compression breaking/surging. when i changed the cap+rotor it improved slightly whereas before it wouldn't drive at all without jerking, now if i hold an rpm steady or accelerate at the pace of a snail it doesn't jerk...so it's still pretty much undriveable..i'm almost positive its a spark related issue because of slight improvement after changing above parts
-what is odd is the jerking starts to happen a few minutues after initial startup...and once it does occur it doesn't go away until i restart and then it allows me another couple mintues before it continues again
-if i accelerate slightly above the "snail pace" the rpm guage kinda bounces as does the car but not violent jerks..but if i give it anything harder than that it jerks...HARD
-had the car die out on me in neutral once to... kinda sputtered its way.. i was testing it to see if it acted up in neutral too and sure enough it did.
-car idles fine, no heavy fluctuating
-car starts first time everytime.. initial startup when its cold it slightly hesitates before firing up..but once warm it restarts nicely.
-one more thing i think i should add is i've driven around already with tps disconnected in default mode and it still happened..so that rules out the tps, o2 sensor, or other sensor issue.

what i want to know is whats the most likely issue that causes these sorts of symptoms on these cars?? do i need to replace the coil, igniter, or the whole f'ing distributor..

btw if you see this posted elsewhere word for word its probably me trying to get as much advice as humanly possible before moving forward... i'm getting sick of having a broken ride.

philadd

My friend's car had a similar problem that was due to bad/clogged injectors. I picked up 4 decent ones from the junkyard and it solved the problem. However, I'd rather someone else step in here and make some suggestions, instead of you running out and buying anything else that may not even resolve the issue...

LSV84

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by philadd &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My friend's car had a similar problem that was due to bad/clogged injectors. I picked up 4 decent ones from the junkyard and it solved the problem. However, I'd rather someone else step in here and make some suggestions, instead of you running out and buying anything else that may not even resolve the issue...</TD></TR></TABLE>

would his/her car correct itself for a atleast 1-2 minutes after restart.


Modified by LSV84 at 11:31 PM 4/2/2006

LSV84

and also where there any CEL'S? would bad injectors throw a CEL? cause i have none at all.

i_kick_turtles

The first thing you should learn is not to start throwing parts at your car. You'll spend a lot of unnecessary money. With that said, I have no idea.

philadd

No, there wasn't any CELs.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSV84 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">would his/her car correct itself for a atleast 1-2 minutes after restart. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not completely sure. Her problem wasn't as severe as yours. Judging from your description, I was able to give it a bit more gas with her car before any stumbling/jerking. If I babied it, I could drive around w/o any problems.

Off the top of my head, things I would look at would be:
- fuel injectors and/or wires
- fuel pump and filter (you've already have)
- air intake/vacuum leak
- incorrect ignition timing

LSV84

you dont think its anything with the distributor?

if i was to take out the fuel injectors how would i determine if they're bad... don't think i'll be doing this today as its raining outside(just my luck).

LSV84

i'm thankful for you bringing up the fuel injectors... now that i think of it when i changed the fuel filter some orange(rustish coloured) **** came out.

the car was sitting in a garage for a few years prior to me driving it... but the bad gas was removed because the fuel pump went bad during that time and we had to drop the tank.. mostly i guess because some must of got left behind in the fuel rail.

not to mention the problem started happening approx 3/4 of the way through a tank w/ fuel system cleaner.


Modified by LSV84 at 9:36 AM 4/3/2006

philadd

In regards to the distributor, if you're getting a good spark then I would probably only consider the timing.

As for the fuel injectors, there's only a couple ways of testing it that I personally know, although I know there are more out there. You can measure the resistance on the injector, which I believe should be 14-19 ohms. There's also some kind of tool that you could plug into the injector connector to make sure that it's getting the right voltage, but I don't have any experience with it.

Some of the Honda techs that are on this board should be able to help you out more, when they get online later today. I'm not a pro at this, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

If the injectors are clogged, there is a way to clean them. I just don't know what it is...

LSV84

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by I R Tylor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The first thing you should learn is not to start throwing parts at your car. You'll spend a lot of unnecessary money. With that said, I have no idea.</TD></TR></TABLE>

so far i've only thrown the basics...but yah i agree 100%.

P_Adams

Throw a can of Seafoam and a can of Dry Gas in the tank.
And think long and hard about the Ignition Ignitor (module) in the distributor.

If you've still got your old Cap&Rotor hanging around, a closer inspection is called for. It's possible you had a burn-through with the rotor and some of that errant discharge may have clobbered the Ignitor



The SeaFoam will act to clean the fuel system and injectors, the Dry Gas will.......dry the gas

Something to ponder

P

LSV84

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by P_Adams &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Throw a can of Seafoam and a can of Dry Gas in the tank.
And think long and hard about the Ignition Ignitor (module) in the distributor.

If you've still got your old Cap&Rotor hanging around, a closer inspection is called for. It's possible you had a burn-through with the rotor and some of that errant discharge may have clobbered the Ignitor



The SeaFoam will act to clean the fuel system and injectors, the Dry Gas will.......dry the gas

Something to ponder

P </TD></TR></TABLE>

i think i still do have the rotor somewhere... i don't know exactly what "burn through" or what to look for but my cap terminals did have some corrosion on them...but no cracks.

P_Adams

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSV84 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think i still do have the rotor somewhere... i don't know exactly what "burn through" or what to look for but my cap terminals did have some corrosion on them...but no cracks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

A burn through is a situation where the 40k voltage discharge finds an easier path to ground (thru the center of the Rotor to the shaft below it), rather than jump the gap to the Distributor Cap Terminals. It can appear as (what best could be discribed as) a Blue halographic sheen under the center contact (indication of High-voltage arcing) or in extreme cases an obvious burned spot.

LSV84

just took it to a mechanic and he drove it..he claimed it wasnt dirty fuel injectors. he claimed it could be a bad map sensor or tps...but wouldn't those throw a CEL? and i've driven around with my tps disconnected and CEL on and it still happened..

he wants $100 for diagnostics..

amckee

I would check the fuel pressure if you have a guage. For the hell of it, I would also take off the cap and see if there was any slop in the shaft itself. Just grab hold of the rotor and rock it back and forth in several directions. I've seen the insulators on the wires going to the igniter crack and fall off from heat and age. Make sure they are not able to ground by covering them with silicone or electrical tape. You know, just because you can read resistance through your plug wires doesn't mean they have continuity under a high voltage load, particularly the coil wire.

LSV84

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by amckee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would check the fuel pressure if you have a guage. For the hell of it, I would also take off the cap and see if there was any slop in the shaft itself. Just grab hold of the rotor and rock it back and forth in several directions. I've seen the insulators on the wires going to the igniter crack and fall off from heat and age. Make sure they are not able to ground by covering them with silicone or electrical tape. You know, just because you can read resistance through your plug wires doesn't mean they have continuity under a high voltage load, particularly the coil wire.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i dont have a pressure guage... but i've checked the shaft and its rock solid no play at all. ..and about the plug wires...why would they reset themselves for a couple minutes after restart? if they were a problem wouldn't it be continous.. it's gotta be something electrical controlled by the computer because of the fact if fixes for a little while after restart..

also i asked the mechanic about that default mode/CEL ON(car doesn't use sensors) when you pull the TPS...he said something about it being like a christmas tree lights and that the tps is far up the chain so the car would still be using sensors like the o2.


Modified by LSV84 at 12:30 PM 4/3/2006

amckee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSV84 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont have a pressure guage... but i've checked the shaft and its rock solid no play at all. ..and about the plug wires...why would they reset themselves for a couple minutes after restart? if they were a problem wouldn't it be continous.. it's gotta be something electrical controlled by the computer because of the fact if fixes for a little while after restart..

also i asked the mechanic about that default mode/CEL ON(car doesn't use sensors) when you pull the TPS...he said something about it being like a christmas tree lights and that the tps is far up the chain so the car would still be using sensors like the o2.


Modified by LSV84 at 12:30 PM 4/3/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>Your mechanic is wrong about that. About your restart......are you saying that when the car is jerking that you can stop, turn off the ignition, and immediately restart it and it will run OK for several minutes, or are you referring to a restart after a cool down period?

LSV84

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by amckee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your mechanic is wrong about that. About your restart......are you saying that when the car is jerking that you can stop, turn off the ignition, and immediately restart it and it will run OK for several minutes, or are you referring to a restart after a cool down period?</TD></TR></TABLE>

yup.. even when the car is operating temp. if i restart it fixes itself for a few mintues atleast. i also just drove around with my o2 sensor unplugged and it did the same thing so that rules out what the mechanic said.

BLKFLSH

I would say to check if the fuel pressure drops (after start-up). But I could never find a gauge that would hook up to the fuel rail port (4th gen).

P_Adams

Going back to your original post, I picked up on something you said:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSV84 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">checked coil for proper resistance and primary was .9ish(should be between .6 and .8 ..kinda works it way down.. meaning when i put the tester on it goes from something high to around 1.3or4-&gt;1.2-1.1-&gt;sits at 1.0 for around 15-20secs and then goes to 0.9 where it stays) secondary resistance is within spec
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It shouldn't be doing that. An ignition coil is no more than two electro-magnets (a spiral of wires around a steel center) which share a common steel core. As a quick? test try putting the coil in the freezer and take a resistance reading for both the primary and secondary side. Let it come back to room temp and then throw it in the oven for about ten minutes and test again. The readings should not vary.

What I believe is happening is that the output voltage of the secondary side is dropping once the coil is heated and that resultant voltage can't sustain fire under heavy compression loads (the spark won't fire the charge) like acceleration and heavy loads. IE: It piffle's along if you nurse it, but goes to hell if you put your foot in it. Once it cools off (stops running for a while), the voltage rises again.
What develops that 40k output voltage is the ratio of windings of the secondary side when compared to the primary windings. Change one side, effect the other.

P

accord-pro

try somethig real simple, make sure all the connections at ignitor and coil are good and tight,, also the plugs going into the distributor ..
main ground wire at t-stat housing is clean and tight ??

LSV84

will definately be looking trying all these suggestions when the sun comes up...definately gonna look at those fuel injectors too regardless of what the mechanic said. will let you guys know how it goes... if it doesn't look good.. i might just have to suck it up and admit defeat and take it to the guys who know what they're doing.

LSV84

well i havent had much time lately but i have done a few things.

took out the fuel injectors and ran some fuel injector cleaner through them manually by connecting a double AA battery and hose and blowing on a hose(ghetto i know, but no pressure gun available).

also did the test P_Adams described and when the coil was fresh out the freezer it fluctuaded its way down but more rapidly after going down went to 0.9-0.8 and kept fluctuating back and forth...

when fresh out the oven also went to 0.9 but took slightly longer to get down going from 1.3-2--&gt;1.1--&gt;1.0--&gt;0.9 and sat there.

secondary resistance was similiar for both tests and did not work its way down or fluctuate.

i also took it to my dads friend(polish guy speaks broken english can barely understand what he's saying) who works on cars in his spare time. he was also mostly clueless about the problem but said some sensor was throwing off my ecu and causing it to inject more gas then it needed. but the way that guy was driving my car made my stomach turn it knots.. revving to like 3-4 grand before engaging the clutch, did a burnout when we left his parking space too for no apparent reason.

Chiovnidca

Try disconnecting the vacuum line to the egr valve to see if it runs smoother.

LSV84

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chiovnidca &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Try disconnecting the vacuum line to the egr valve to see if it runs smoother.</TD></TR></TABLE>

will give it a shot but doubtful thats teh problem because in january the car failed smog because of high NOx and egr system was serviced and car passed with flying colours after..