zorobabel

I have the parts coming my way and I'll be replacing:
-the lower balljoints
-upper balljoint boots
-driver side outer tie rod end boot and inner bellows
-PS fluid

The car is a 97 Accord SE F22B2 with 253k.
I've never done any suspension related repair before, I've read advice (https://honda-tech.com/forums/showpo...97&postcount=6) posted by MadMike about this but I still have a few questions:

1.Do I need a 36mm socket for the spindle nut? 181 lbft torque?

2.Do I need to lube the boots with silicone grease? What type of grease is best? Does the bellow need to be lubed?

3.Should I try to lube the joints I'll be replacing the boots for (upper balljoint and tie rod end)? With what and how?

4.I watched a youtube video by Nukem384 replacing the lower ball joint for his 95 Accord. Why does he loosen the upper balljoint and tie rod end before loosening the lower balljoint? Is there a particular order?

5.Do I need to remove the rotor and disk from the knuckle in order to replace the lower ball joint?

6.Tie rod - and locking nut what size wrenches do I need?

7.Can I replace the inner bellows without taking the steering rack off? That's what I'm hoping to try.

8.Would a tool like this (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...tie+rod+puller) work for removing and instaling the lower BJ? I'm going to be renting a torque wrench that can do 181 lbft, might as well rent a joint tool.

9.Is it safe to put pressure on the joint studs (like pushing the stud towards the joint)?

10.The manual says 36-43 lbft of torque for LBJ castle nut? Which one is it? Same thing with the other castle nuts 29-35 lbft.

Thanks!

Roader

Never done an LBJ but have removed the knuckle:

1. Yes. I rent the 36mm socket at Autozone & use a 1/2" breaker bar with a 5' piece of pipe to get extra leverage. I've never used a torque wrench for this nut, I just guesstimate what 181 ft-lbs is.

3. Use axle grease/wheel bearing grease.

4. I think it's to get access to the LBJ. The knuckle will swing out with the tie rod disconnected, making it easier to get to the LBJ. And it's easier to pop the UBJ out when the LBJ is still connected to the control arm.

5. No.

6. Most sizes are 11/16" - 17mm as I remember. Might be a 3/4" - 19mm in there somewhere.

7. No, but you have to take off the outer tie rod end. A little silicone grease on the tie rod threads helps here. And be sure to either mark the position or count the number of turns it takes to get the tie rod ends off, for each side, and screw them on the same number of turns.

A small sledge hammer works wonders to get the ball joints and tie rod ends out of the knuckle. Smack the side of the knuckle next to the tapered shaft of whatever you're trying to get out.
(Didn't read MM's excellent post first...he explains the small sledge hammer use better than I.)

v4lu3s

1. rent or buy, buy price is usually about $15, i agreee with rodaer, though i have used a torque wrench and not used one.
2. no
3. i agree with roader
4. I am partial to do ing it in this order...tie rod end, then lower ball joint (uses the downward pressure of the shock to help it) and then upper (weight of knuckle helps).
5. yes, the brakes need to come off so that you can replace the ball joint and the upper ball joint boot, use a wire coat hanger and hang the caliper so it is NOT hanging from the rubber brake line.
6. have 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 17mm and 19mm on hand as well as that 36mm and that should cover everything on this job, it helps to have both sockets and wrenches.
7. yes the bellows comes off and on once the tie rod end is off.
8. use a hammer to hit the lower control arm next to the ball joint, preferably a 3 lb short sledge or engineers hammer, that works 90% or better of the time. if that doesnt work one of those tools may work. make sure you get teh ball joint install tool set from the parts store, it helps a LOT.
9. i prefer not to do that to avoid damage.
10. those are ranges, if you are in that range you are fine.

MAD_MIKE

*snort* *fart* *burp* what? who? someone say something? *wipes drool from face*
Yeah, its a big bugger. If the axle nut was installed by an overzealous dog molesting *** monkey, then you will probably have a hell of a time getting it off. I've had to upgrade to a 3/4" drive breaker bar as I would pop the 1/2" breaker bars like twigs on removing those nuts.

You don't need a 250lbft torque wrench. Depending on how much you weigh, you can do a little math and figure out where you need to stand on the breaker bar. Breaker bars are usually about 18" long. and 1lbft is generated by placing 1lb of pressure, 1ft away from the center of the fastener you are tightening.
Nope, the boots don't need to be lubed.
AFAIK the original and MOOG replacement brand parts are all sealed, No way to lube them. If the boot is torn you replace the BJ. These are not serviceable parts. When you get to the lower BJ you will see why there isn't a grease fitting. There is simply no room for it.
No real order, but you don't want to totally disconnect or remove the components until you have broken them all free. If you remove the components prior to breaking the rest of the studs free you will be fighting the studs and have an upright flopping about, it just becomes a PITA.
Nope the hub/bearing/rotor are not in the way of removing or installing the LBJ. But if you are in there and have over 150K on the wheel bearing, you might want to look into possibly replacing it. If it spins freely its probably on its way out.
Tie rod castle nuts are 17mm, so is the UBJ nut. LBJ is 19mm IIRC. Use 6-point sockets, don't risk rounding off the nuts.
Never done this, but from what I recall, with the outer tie rod removed(mark it so you know where it was) you can remove/replace that bellow. Might be a bit tight to get the inner band on though.
No. The pitman arm tool is sized much larger, and is only used for removing a pitman arm. Not the same as pressing in or out the BJ.

However, ORLY does have a tool loaner program. You will have to rent a ball joint installer/removal tool AND the Honda BJ adapter kit. If they have the nifty tool rental mat on the counter, look for the BJ tool, next to it will be the Honda adapter tool, don't be surprised if the Honda tool is new, I don't think many people realize it exits.

You will need the cupped washer the windowed cup and the sleeve to extend the windowed cup down enough to install the BJ. Do NOT only use the windowed cup, this will catch on the boot of your sealed BJ and tear it, rendering it useless. Due to clearance issues, the windowed portion faces towards the dust shield.

If your new BJ leaks grease it is no good. Being non serviceable it will wear out with out the grease. You can push the boot down towards the BJ base, if grease starts oozing out form a small tear or hole, its no good. Order up another. I went to 4 different stores and looked at 10 LBJs to find 2 that did not leak.
Yes it is,(remember on the LBJ that corner of the cars weight travels through that little joint, while being able to rotate, articulate, all the while getting beat on from road irregularities) just make sure not to damage the threaded portion. You can't really get a pickle fork on the studs, and even if you could it would destroy the sealed boot, rendering the joint worthless.
That's the torque spec range. 36-43 on the LBJ, so 36;37...42;43 are all the correct torque specs.

Important notes with the BJs.

Make sure the BJ is completely installed, replacement LBJs come with circlips that you use to make sure it does not move up. Install it, if the BJ does somehow loosen it will not ride up and contact the outboard CV joint. Bad ju-ju happens if that occurs.

Make sure that the tapered stud and stud hole is not damaged, corroded or have any junk in the hole. Look for any abnormal wear that may have occurred from a loose stud. Make sure the new stud seats correctly.

Honda and MOOG replacement LBJs have a smooth base. McQuay-Norris/Napa(blue boots) have a serrated base. The only reason it would have a serrated base is to be slightly oversized. On a stamped steel control arm this is fine to allow the BJ to bite the arm, but on the steel knuckle of the Honda there is no need for this. If the BJ is sloppy in the hole, either the BJ is incorrect, or the knuckle has been damaged.

And above all else, make sure the LBJ does not leak grease. If after getting everything reinstalled the LBJ has grease oozing out of it, you will need to pull everything apart and replace it.

djkurious

If you can't get that lower ball joint seperated, do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISY8bGof3bQ

zorobabel

Thanks Roader, v4lu3s, MadMike and djkurious!
Just to clarify, I've ordered the parts from Majestic Honda. I'll install the lower ball joints as they come (hopefully assembled). Thanks for the tip on leaking boots MadMike.

1. I'll try to get a 3/4" drive socket and breaker bar (pawn shop or Harbor Freight-$45 for both). I'll use the floor jack handle. Thanks for the using body weight for torquing tip MadMike, I'll use that if all else fails.

2. The manual says the boots need to be lubed on the inside (I'm only talking about the boots I'll be replacing - upper balljoint boots, driver side tie rod end boot and inner bellow). You guys say the boots don't need to be lubed. What's the purpose of the silicone grease? Maybe to keep the rubber from rotting?
I haven't been able to find silicone grease so far any way.

3. Won't the axle grease/wheel bearing grease cause the rubber to swell? It's happened to me before with the walmart high temp complex grease (pink stuff). I could try and be carefull and only apply a bit of grease to the joints or just use the silicon grease I haven't found yet. I'm still not sure about this one or question 2.

4. Got it, it makes sense. I'll use the order suggested by v4lu3s - thanks!
Thanks djkurious, that's how I planned to remove the LBJ from the LCA.

5. I should have said rotor and bearing - ooops. I'll leave them on the knuckle then. Thanks for the tip on checking the bearing MadMike.

6. I was talking about the tie rod lock nut (the one on the inner tie rod) - I imagine I'm going to need 2 open box wrenches to remove the outer tie rod, just trying to figure out what tool to buy.

7. It seems it can be done just by removing the tie rod end, thanks! I hope I can reuse the band, I haven't ordered a new one.

8. I have to buy a 3lb ball peen hammer if I find one. MadMike, is this the tool? https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-civic-del-sol-1992-2000-1/balljoint-replacment-autozone-free-rentals-27023-27164-a-2987276/

9. I'll avoid pressure on the joints to be safe, thanks.

10. I've done some more reading and I'm supposed to torque the castle nuts to the lower torque specs and keep tightening until the cotter pin orifice alligns with the castle nut.

Thanks for all the help guys! A special thank you to MadMike - you must be dreaming lower ball joints at night )

MAD_MIKE

Usually, you use a new boot if you damage the boot. But normally if the boot has failed, like CV axles, the joint itself is already old and more than likely in need of replacement. If you are using Honda boots, make sure to get new circlips to attach the boots.
Cheap boots from Dorman and the like are made from rubber and will swell/deteriorate. The BJ boots, CV boots, and oil gaskets/seals are not made from typical rubber. Usually made from neoprene or nitrile rubber, which will have better resistance to oils.
Yeah just a couple of box ends. Once you loosen the lock nut the outer tierod can spin off, then remove the lock nut so the boot can slide on.
That is exactly what I was thinking of. Although you do not need to use the
'A' or 'B' adapters. You should be able to use the 'Honda BJ adapters on their own with the C-clamp/jackscrew of the BJ tool.


Hah! No, I just had the unique experience of replacing pads/rotors/wheel bearings/BJs and some other tid bits on the '95 EX. Budget/Time issues with the bearings and BJs, caught with my pants down so no HOR conversion this time.
Well said JDM_DC4_Fanatic... well said.

zorobabel

Thanks Mad Mike.
I finally got around to doing the job this weekend. Here is the end to the story .
Unstaking the spindle nut was a PITA - I didn't have a chisel, broke a screwdriver but managed to do it in the end.
As for the spidle nut - I'm glad I bought the 3/4" sockets and breaker bar from HB. I was amazed to see the floor jack handle (I was using as an extension) bend so much while I was jumping on it, ha ha!
Removing the LBJs from the LCAs was a breeze, they were'nt stuck at all. Can't say the same thing about the other joints. Maybe they became unstuck while hammering the others.
The autozone tool was no good for removing the LBJ from the knuckle. It may fit a Civic, but it doesn't fit the 94-97 Accord; part F doesn't fit over the LBJ, not enough ID.
I used a 3/4" impact socket to hammer the LBJs out, it worked ok and survived the ordeal.
The autozone tool does work for pressing the new LBJs in and beatufully . A 22mm socket or wrench is needed for working the clamp - for those that wonder.
The LBJs I pushed out had no snap rings - but had the grooves for it; the LBJs I bought from Majestic Honda had no grooves at all.
The tie rod ends - to disconnect them 2 19mm wrenches are needed.
I used dielectric grease to coat the inside of the PS bellow, that's the best I could find.
For flushing the PS fluid I could have used a 4th 12oz bottle, I only had 3 bottles. The fluid is not clear, but at least it's not black any more )
Thanks a lot guys!

El Diablo

I made it to around 330,000 miles on the stock lower ball joints before this happened. Oddly enough it had just been through PA inspection. I know the mechanic, I was in the bay, the lowers seemed tight. I'm rocking the ebay replacements now, and I'm wishing I went with Moog. An air chisel took mine out faster than the jack did.

MAD_MIKE

Even with a cold chisel and a punch unstaking the nuts can be a right bitch of a ***** of a job.
Yeop, those axle nuts are too much. Another reason why I am not a fan of using an impact gun or torquing the hell out of them. Somebody is going to have to get back under there sooner than later, usually it's yourself.
Interesting. The ORLY rental is "OEM" brand too, just a black case rather than the red shown in the pic. It was snug around the boot, had to be careful as not to pinch the BJ boot. This may have been why I kept finding so many busted boots on all the replacement units, careless wannabe installers.
There is actually a Sea Foam cleaner for AT and PS systems, I don't recall there being anything regarding not using it on Hondas, but it may be something to look into. Honda possibly already has something similar.

nus_dogg

That cop looks funny as hell! Lol.

Upper and Lower ball joints are easy to do. I just did both outter tie-rods, one lower ball joint, and both upper ball joints on my '94 Accord Beater. Then I did an alignment on it to center my steering wheel.

dillydools

Just replaced lower ball joints in a 2001 civic EX--this may not apply to an accord, but info may be useful.
Duralast Ball joints have a grease fitting that will not clear axle anti-lock brake ring on install--go for the sealed joint. You can disassemble the included fitting and just put in the nipple, which will close the ball joint hole, but there still will not be enough clearance to fit a grease gun one everything is put back together

MAD_MIKE

IMO this makes that BJ type not worth using. The BJ needs to be a sealed unit in this application as there is no way(outside of suspension disassembly) to grease the BJ.

AlxMcyD

My 2 cents on this.

According to the bearing manufacturers, the top reasons for early failure of their bearings:

1. Failure to properly torque the bearing to spec.
2. Re-using axle nut for applications which specify one-shot axle nuts.

forward

I just replaced both LBJs on my '95 Accord LX, and carefully pounded the old ones out (ten blows each at most) with a five pound sledge. I put both LBJs in the freezer for a few hours (each sealed inside a Ziploc(tm) bag), then lightly heated up the lower end of the knuckle with a small propane torch to expand them slightly, and both LBJs went in easily.

I used OEM LBJs from a local dealership (part #51220-S84-305, $25.48 each) and noticed the new LBJs do not have the groove for the external snap ring like the original LBJs did. Wasn't too happy about that, but maybe there's a good reason why that change was made. The grease boots and spring clips are pre-installed, so you only need to install the LBJ into the knuckle and you're finished. You will need to re-use the castle nut, though.

FYI, the Honda LBJs are available online for $18.xx or so, so you could save a few dollars over buying a pair at the dealership.

strategy400

I've found putting parts in the freezer causes condensation while assembling the parts, which can gum up the lubrication while pressing in.

johm73

Since this is related I thought I'd ask here.

Does anyone know of a way to get the steering gear boot/bellow on the damn inner flange?!?! I have the outer tie rod off and the boot into position but getting the back side on the flange is a royal PITA!! I'm working on the driver side but both need replaced.

This is on a '97 Accord if that matters. Is there anything I should remove to make it "easier"? I've already spent the better part of 2 hours trying with no luck and this is the first of 2 I need to do.

Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated.

MAD_MIKE

If the boot is tight put a little lube on the inner lip to slide it over the housing.

Ginohio1

I just had this happen on a 1998 Accord, fortunately I was only going 25 mph when it broke My mileage on the car was 149,000. Ironically Honda had a recall on the LBJ for year 1998 even more ironic my vin # was not one included in the recall. F**k Honda. MY 2001 recall of the airbag module was denied over 4 years ago because my Vin # was not included in the recall. Now after all this time they calling me to have it changed because of all the cars affected. Again F**k Honda.

MAD_MIKE

It's why I'm a fanboi of replacing LBJs and front wheel bearings at 100Kmiles.

If I were you I would take some photos of the LBJ up close, where it broke, a picture of your VIN, and any other documentation and get in contact with Honda of America. A BJ being sloppy(huh huh) is one thing, but the stud breaking is unacceptable under normal wear.
Make sure to take pictures of the rest of that corner of the car/suspension and body damage wise as well.
HoA may work with you and pay you for any loss/damages.

Ginohio1

Unfortunately, this happened in July past summer after a 1800 mile road trip back home from Fla to Ohio. through mountains of Va,WV and PA. We bought the car for our son a few years ago and he got a job in Fl and bought a new car this past summer and they didn't wanna give him anything on trade in so we were going to be in Fl on vacation anyways and decided to drive it back for a winter beater. I don't have any pictures only a police report. but I do have my receipts, lol

MAD_MIKE

I would still pursue it. They may say no, or they may cut you a check for part of your cost.

Ginohio1

Thanks I will try that. I hate to cross post being new here but any tips on a 2001 accord alternator replacement? My daughters car, was able to get it out barely without having to remove cooling fan but I can't get it in at all. Do I have to remove the bottom mud guard to get to bottom screw on cooling fan I can't see anything except the radiator plastic drain valve. Thanks in advance

Max Coldest

Way to go"forward"! My shop fridge has a freezer! For 15 yrs it has been full of Honda ball joints and compliance bushings! Even a "Motor" mag article on replacing LBJ's said nothing of this trick. You are the first I've seen allude to this. They almost slide in @times! Good tip!

lurice01

same thing happened to me in a 95 honda civic ex. the lower ball joint separated and the axle popped out of tranny. happened as i was pulling out of driveway.

now the frot upper ball joint is bad too, popping, and tire wheel is loose. I was wondering, what would happen if upper ball joint, too separated while i was i driving? would wheel fall off car or just lose steering? wheel would fall off right? Does that happen as often as lower ball joint separating?