Driveablity ? to throw at you all........
02-01-2006, 04:59 PM
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Driveablity ? to throw at you all........
I am having a problem intermittently when accelerating my Accord. The car wants to shutoff if you press the gas petal but if you let off and floor it quits. I am kind of confused on this...I am thinking bad gas maybe?? I filled up my car Sunday night and parked it for the night. Monday on my way to work this started. I ran 93 Octane in her and this started. Does anyone have any ideas they would like to throw at me...Its starting to **** me off....lol
02-01-2006, 07:27 PM
#5
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (project93accord)
Forgive me. I'm trying to wrap my head around this.
As I understand your dilemma: Your car wants to quit it you lightly accelerate, but recovers if you release the pedal. If you accelerate more aggressively, it works normally. Is this correct?
Other than the fuel fill-up, was there any repairs performed recently? Where do you stand with regards to maintaince; air/fuel filter changes etc?
Nothing "Just jumps out" at me yet. Maybe with a little more input, a clearer picture will emerge.
P
As I understand your dilemma: Your car wants to quit it you lightly accelerate, but recovers if you release the pedal. If you accelerate more aggressively, it works normally. Is this correct?
Other than the fuel fill-up, was there any repairs performed recently? Where do you stand with regards to maintaince; air/fuel filter changes etc?
Nothing "Just jumps out" at me yet. Maybe with a little more input, a clearer picture will emerge.
P
02-01-2006, 07:32 PM
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (P_Adams)
my maintanence is all upto date...no recent repairs and newer short ram intake...and mobil one full synthetic oils and the honda filter 
02-01-2006, 08:21 PM
#7
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (project93accord)
This is really going to be a real shot in the dark, because one (1) it's an intermittent condition (hard to duplicate) and Two (2) it hasn't set a "service Engine" lamp code. Three things come to mind, all of which can cause "transitional" problems:
a) Map Sensor (least likely of three). If slow to respond, would delay sending revised values to ECM indicating increased air flow via pressure drop. Ecm would be slow to enrichen A/F ratio during slow accelleration.
b) Throttle Position Sensor (2nd most likely). If slow to respond, would delay sending revised values to ECM indicating throttle position change. A/F enrichening would be delayed.
c) Lazy O2 Sensor (Most likely). Reduced cross-counts from age. If slow to respond, would delay sending revised values to ECM indicating needed changes in A/F ratio.
P
a) Map Sensor (least likely of three). If slow to respond, would delay sending revised values to ECM indicating increased air flow via pressure drop. Ecm would be slow to enrichen A/F ratio during slow accelleration.
b) Throttle Position Sensor (2nd most likely). If slow to respond, would delay sending revised values to ECM indicating throttle position change. A/F enrichening would be delayed.
c) Lazy O2 Sensor (Most likely). Reduced cross-counts from age. If slow to respond, would delay sending revised values to ECM indicating needed changes in A/F ratio.
P
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02-01-2006, 08:25 PM
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (P_Adams)
I might be able to shed just a tad more light on the subject since you mentioned the O2 sensor. My valve cover and oil pan was leaking a few month back and from what I understand isn't the O2 directly below there? Could the oil have burned it out from dripping hot oil on it?????? 
02-01-2006, 09:23 PM
#9
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (project93accord)
That by itself (although making it pretty cruddy) won't cause a failure such as this. It more has to do with age, and the gradual deterioration of the O2 element.
P
P
02-01-2006, 10:18 PM
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (eagleclawracing)
When you said."if I let of and then floor it it quits" did you meen the car takes off and quits dying and runs fine? if so it's a Weak fuel pump man.I'd bet you a beer.Mine did the same thing.Like you said you would be cruising along and just light foot on the pedal and it will just quit but if you let off and floor it it will drive fine....Mine got so bad doing that that for awhile I had to drive it pretty hard keeping my foot almost to the floor all the time.
*L* it drove like a dirt bike with the needle clip in the wrong position.
And Like P said it was real hard for me to figure out.*L* I fixed it by accident a fuse popped and cut off the fuel pump.So this was a few years ago and I didn't have as much experience as I do now so I went and bought a new fuel pump.Changed it.*L* because I didn't know about the fuse it was an under the hood one.the pump still wouldn't come on."But I was smart enough to test it by plugging it in before I put the fuel tank back in."
So i sat both pumps beside each other and tested them by hooking them to the battery briefly just to hear if they would come on.The new pump ran hard and sounded way loud.the old one I could barely here it but it still worked but barely.
Anyway I called a guy I buy accord parts from on eBay all the time and He said pull every fuse on the car and check it.So I found the blown fuse had power at the fuel pump plug put the new pump in and drove the car and my dieing off of idle problem was solved.
oh and the car I'm talking about is a 90 accord ex
I need to ask P adams about my theory on why the weak pump caused it to do this.P aren't the fuel pumps in these cars run off of like varied voltage.If so I think with the pump being weak when your just off of idle and the pump only needs to supply a modest amount of fuel it will only run off of a few volts.So with it being weak it would pretty much not work at all unless asked for wide open throttle and thus it would be supplied more power allowing a dieing fuel pump at least enough juice to push enough fuel to run the car.
Modified by Dmc1 at 11:37 PM 2/1/2006
Modified by Dmc1 at 11:41 PM 2/1/2006
Modified by Dmc1 at 11:42 PM 2/1/2006
*L* it drove like a dirt bike with the needle clip in the wrong position.
And Like P said it was real hard for me to figure out.*L* I fixed it by accident a fuse popped and cut off the fuel pump.So this was a few years ago and I didn't have as much experience as I do now so I went and bought a new fuel pump.Changed it.*L* because I didn't know about the fuse it was an under the hood one.the pump still wouldn't come on."But I was smart enough to test it by plugging it in before I put the fuel tank back in."
So i sat both pumps beside each other and tested them by hooking them to the battery briefly just to hear if they would come on.The new pump ran hard and sounded way loud.the old one I could barely here it but it still worked but barely.
Anyway I called a guy I buy accord parts from on eBay all the time and He said pull every fuse on the car and check it.So I found the blown fuse had power at the fuel pump plug put the new pump in and drove the car and my dieing off of idle problem was solved.
oh and the car I'm talking about is a 90 accord ex
I need to ask P adams about my theory on why the weak pump caused it to do this.P aren't the fuel pumps in these cars run off of like varied voltage.If so I think with the pump being weak when your just off of idle and the pump only needs to supply a modest amount of fuel it will only run off of a few volts.So with it being weak it would pretty much not work at all unless asked for wide open throttle and thus it would be supplied more power allowing a dieing fuel pump at least enough juice to push enough fuel to run the car.
Modified by Dmc1 at 11:37 PM 2/1/2006
Modified by Dmc1 at 11:41 PM 2/1/2006
Modified by Dmc1 at 11:42 PM 2/1/2006
02-02-2006, 05:07 AM
#12
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (Dmc1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dmc1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I need to ask P Adams about my theory on why the weak pump caused it to do this.P aren't the fuel pumps in these cars run off of like varied voltage.If so I think with the pump being weak when your just off of idle and the pump only needs to supply a modest amount of fuel it will only run off of a few volts.So with it being weak it would pretty much not work at all unless asked for wide open throttle and thus it would be supplied more power allowing a dieing fuel pump at least enough juice to push enough fuel to run the car.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The fuel delivery system on the Accords is what I'd refer to as a "Race Track" system, with it's primary loop comprising
1) The In-Tank Fuel Pump
2) The Fuel Feed Pipe to the Pressure Regulator via the fuel filter / hoses
3) The Fuel Pressure Regulator itself
4) The Fuel return Pipe to the Tank (#15)
http://www.hondaautomotivepart...+PIPE
The Fuel Pressure Regulator performs two functions.
1) supplies pressure regulated fuel to the Fuel Rail
2) returning unused fuel to the tank
This insures sufficient fuel volume at the regulator for changing engine demands and at the same time cools the fuel pump as cool fuel flows thru it.
The fuel pump operates at vehicle system voltage at all times (13.8 - 14.4volts) via two source's thru the main relay.
a) Ignition switch energizes the Main Relay. That's why you hear the pump initially cycle when you first turn the key - pressurize the fuel rail. Once the engine starts
b) Oil pressure sender energizes the Main Relay. Allows the pump to run only while the engine runs
Somewhere amongst all this is the answer to your question.
I could guess that this scenario would be possible:
You had a weak fuel pump which at 14.4 volts (upper system voltage range) supplied sufficient fuel flow (and pressure) to run correctly, but at idle - when the voltage dropped from Accessories loads and a slow spinning alternator, the pressure dropped and would cause a stalling condition.
I've seen stranger
P
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The fuel delivery system on the Accords is what I'd refer to as a "Race Track" system, with it's primary loop comprising
1) The In-Tank Fuel Pump
2) The Fuel Feed Pipe to the Pressure Regulator via the fuel filter / hoses
3) The Fuel Pressure Regulator itself
4) The Fuel return Pipe to the Tank (#15)
http://www.hondaautomotivepart...+PIPE
The Fuel Pressure Regulator performs two functions.
1) supplies pressure regulated fuel to the Fuel Rail
2) returning unused fuel to the tank
This insures sufficient fuel volume at the regulator for changing engine demands and at the same time cools the fuel pump as cool fuel flows thru it.
The fuel pump operates at vehicle system voltage at all times (13.8 - 14.4volts) via two source's thru the main relay.
a) Ignition switch energizes the Main Relay. That's why you hear the pump initially cycle when you first turn the key - pressurize the fuel rail. Once the engine starts
b) Oil pressure sender energizes the Main Relay. Allows the pump to run only while the engine runs
Somewhere amongst all this is the answer to your question.
I could guess that this scenario would be possible:
You had a weak fuel pump which at 14.4 volts (upper system voltage range) supplied sufficient fuel flow (and pressure) to run correctly, but at idle - when the voltage dropped from Accessories loads and a slow spinning alternator, the pressure dropped and would cause a stalling condition.
I've seen stranger
P
02-02-2006, 07:23 AM
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (project93accord)
I had a similar problem with an intermittant TPS. Unplug it and drive it for a while to see if your problem goes away. Your ECU will set a code but your car should run fine. If that proves not to be the problem, plug it back in, clear your code, and scratch the TPS off the list. Two questions, when it bogs, does it buck and catch itself or does it stay bogged until you move the accelerator? If you slowely increase the gas does it eventually catch itself or do you have to release and reapply the gas?
02-02-2006, 12:55 PM
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (amckee)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by amckee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Two questions, when it bogs, does it buck and catch itself or does it stay bogged until you move the accelerator? If you slowely increase the gas does it eventually catch itself or do you have to release and reapply the gas?</TD></TR></TABLE>
sometimes it will stoop but i just let off the gas and hit it again...i get only about 18-21 mpg if that gives any extra input to shed some light on...
sometimes it will stoop but i just let off the gas and hit it again...i get only about 18-21 mpg if that gives any extra input to shed some light on...
02-02-2006, 06:01 PM
#15
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (project93accord)
Lazy O2 sensors will definitely effect fuel economy; as will a TPS (throttle position sensor) with is malfunctioning.
The O2 sensor because it becomes desensitized over time and can't keep up with the changes within the exhaust fast enough.
The TPS because, by it's very design, it wears in a very small range. Because of how we drive, the throttle always operates within a small percentage of its entire range. Both above AND below this range it's (for all intents and purposes) like new (because it's very seldom used), but within this worn range, the sensor is giving either intermittent or erroneous values to the ecm.
It's determining which (if not both) that's causing you trouble.
P
The O2 sensor because it becomes desensitized over time and can't keep up with the changes within the exhaust fast enough.
The TPS because, by it's very design, it wears in a very small range. Because of how we drive, the throttle always operates within a small percentage of its entire range. Both above AND below this range it's (for all intents and purposes) like new (because it's very seldom used), but within this worn range, the sensor is giving either intermittent or erroneous values to the ecm.
It's determining which (if not both) that's causing you trouble.
P
02-03-2006, 02:22 AM
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Re: (YeuEmMaiMai)
EGR is closed during acceleration even if the ports aren't clogged, which I'm sure his are given the age of the car. The only concievable way it could cause a stumble might be if the ports weren't clogged but the valve was stuck open and then I think he would see idle surge.
02-03-2006, 02:56 AM
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Re: (amckee)
talk to many people who work on hondas and they state without a doubt that a common cause of
"The car wants to shutoff if you press the gas petal but if you let off and floor it quits."
The reason it goes away at WOT is becuase EGR is bypassed at that point in time.
EGR is NOT CLOSED during any other time except when
Car is in warmup
Car is WOT
at all other times it is functional.
"The car wants to shutoff if you press the gas petal but if you let off and floor it quits."
The reason it goes away at WOT is becuase EGR is bypassed at that point in time.
EGR is NOT CLOSED during any other time except when
Car is in warmup
Car is WOT
at all other times it is functional.
02-03-2006, 03:21 AM
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Re: (YeuEmMaiMai)
I have driven my car with a vacuum guage hooked up in the EGR vacuum line. Anytime you go into a low vacuum situation by pressing on the gas pedal, the vacuum to the EGR is cut off by the solinoid until the vacuum recovers. If you doubt me, hook up a guage to your EGR line and go for a drive. EGR is also CLOSED at idle. Once again if you doubt me, hook up a vacuum guage and stop taking other peoples word for something that you have no hands on experience with. If EGR was open at idle, why would you test for blocked ports by pulling a vacuum on the EGR at idle to see if it stumbles?
02-03-2006, 03:48 AM
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Re: (amckee)
i am not going to argue with you
I got dyno runs from the state of MO that say you are full of crap. They actually place your car on a dyno and take readings from various speeds and engine loads and give you the readout stating what your emmisions are.
Also you need to do some reseach about EGR and how it operates, when it operates, and what type of driveability problems it can cause when it is not working.
but hey the OP has tried a lot of things but he has not cleaned his/her egr ports so I gave him advice that I am confident will solve his problem.
Use your head and do a seach on Honda 2.2L engines and EGR problems. This is a known issue with honda cars and it affect just about every single accord out there. I have 2 accords one a V6 and one I4 and they both have suffered from EGR problems. Either car threw a code until the ports were completely clogged.
I got dyno runs from the state of MO that say you are full of crap. They actually place your car on a dyno and take readings from various speeds and engine loads and give you the readout stating what your emmisions are.
Also you need to do some reseach about EGR and how it operates, when it operates, and what type of driveability problems it can cause when it is not working.
but hey the OP has tried a lot of things but he has not cleaned his/her egr ports so I gave him advice that I am confident will solve his problem.
Use your head and do a seach on Honda 2.2L engines and EGR problems. This is a known issue with honda cars and it affect just about every single accord out there. I have 2 accords one a V6 and one I4 and they both have suffered from EGR problems. Either car threw a code until the ports were completely clogged.
02-03-2006, 04:07 AM
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Re: (YeuEmMaiMai)
#1 he's not throwing a code.
#2 If the ports were clogged as you suggest(and they may very well be) this would keep the EGR from functioning. No exhaust would make it to the intake so how does this cause a stumble?
EGR functions at cruise when vacuum is high. I say again, stop reading and get your hands dirty. Hook up a guage to your EGR. I know exactly how and when the EGR works on Hondas and many other makes of cars. You are missinformed from your lack of hands on mechanical experience and need to quit spreading false info on EGR. Once again I say, the only concievable way it could cause a stumble might be if the ports WERE NOT clogged but the valve was stuck open and then I think he would see idle surge.
EDIT: How does emmission levels from a dyno test tell you ANYTHING about when the EGR opens. NOX emmissions don't immediately shoot up as soon as the EGR closes.
Modified by amckee at 7:19 AM 2/3/2006
#2 If the ports were clogged as you suggest(and they may very well be) this would keep the EGR from functioning. No exhaust would make it to the intake so how does this cause a stumble?
EGR functions at cruise when vacuum is high. I say again, stop reading and get your hands dirty. Hook up a guage to your EGR. I know exactly how and when the EGR works on Hondas and many other makes of cars. You are missinformed from your lack of hands on mechanical experience and need to quit spreading false info on EGR. Once again I say, the only concievable way it could cause a stumble might be if the ports WERE NOT clogged but the valve was stuck open and then I think he would see idle surge.
EDIT: How does emmission levels from a dyno test tell you ANYTHING about when the EGR opens. NOX emmissions don't immediately shoot up as soon as the EGR closes.
Modified by amckee at 7:19 AM 2/3/2006
02-03-2006, 04:30 AM
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Re: Driveablity ? to throw at you all........ (project93accord)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by project93accord »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sometimes it will stoop but i just let off the gas and hit it again...i get only about 18-21 mpg if that gives any extra input to shed some light on...</TD></TR></TABLE>Back on subject, you are going to have to try or test something to give some more info. Can you check the fuel pressure? Can you try unplugging the TPS and driving it for a while? We really need more to go on or the best you are going to get will be a guess.
02-03-2006, 05:23 AM
#23
Re: (YeuEmMaiMai)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by YeuEmMaiMai »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">talk to many people who work on hondas and they state without a doubt that a common cause of
"The car wants to shutoff if you press the gas petal but if you let off and floor it quits."
The reason it goes away at WOT is becuase EGR is bypassed at that point in time.
EGR is NOT CLOSED during any other time except when
Car is in warmup
Car is WOT
at all other times it is functional.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I beg to differ,,,, but egr is DEFINATELLY closed at idle,, think about it ,,,,,it sits on the intake manifold , if it were open at idle you would have a vaccum leak which depending how bad ,would make car stall,,,,,,,,
,,,,,If you doubt it,, start car , let it idle, take off hose # 16 from the egr valve, hook up a vacc pump and draw some vaccum,i bet the car will die ......the only way it would not die is if the egr ports are clogged up ..............this is the first step when trouble shooting the egr system make sure valve is closed at idle ..
"The car wants to shutoff if you press the gas petal but if you let off and floor it quits."
The reason it goes away at WOT is becuase EGR is bypassed at that point in time.
EGR is NOT CLOSED during any other time except when
Car is in warmup
Car is WOT
at all other times it is functional.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I beg to differ,,,, but egr is DEFINATELLY closed at idle,, think about it ,,,,,it sits on the intake manifold , if it were open at idle you would have a vaccum leak which depending how bad ,would make car stall,,,,,,,,
,,,,,If you doubt it,, start car , let it idle, take off hose # 16 from the egr valve, hook up a vacc pump and draw some vaccum,i bet the car will die ......the only way it would not die is if the egr ports are clogged up ..............this is the first step when trouble shooting the egr system make sure valve is closed at idle ..