zerobacan

Hi. Guys

My car is a Accord SE Coupe 2.2 Liters Non VTEC 1997

Here goes my story (Sorry about the English, I still learning)

Everything started this Thursday 01/05/06 when I started my car and noticed a very loud ticking in my engine, I thought I was lacking of oil, because, I've been seeing an oil leak under the engine for a while (Maybe 2 months almost the same time I changed a failure hose that made my car over heated for third time. My radiator also broke and the car overheated once at cause of a broken radiator like 7 months ago) The leak was coming from the oil pan gasket next to the drive-plate in the trans-axle part of the engine. I changed the gasket (kind of easy) then I put new oil back in and I ran the car, but the ticking continued. That lead me to think that my ticking was more than a lack or poor of oil, and it might be something with the valves.

After a while running the engine trying to see what was really the problem, I heard the same loud ticking in the engine, and suddenly the motor sounded like it got stuck and stopped moving, I rapidly stopped the engine and checked what was wrong. The starter was working well, the belts were moving well, I have sparks in the spark plugs, gasoline, and everything was OK.

Then I decided to open the valve cover, to see what was wrong, as I opened it, I let the the engine move for like 15 seconds and I found out that the sprocket was moving along with the timing belt (good, I didn't have the timing belt broken) but the valves were not moving with it.

I continued to remove the timing belt upper cover, and I sadly found out that the union between the sprocket and the camshaft had been horrible broken and the sprocket was moving by it self-destroying the camshaft even more.

At this time I have the camshaft removed, and I'm looking for a place to buy a new one.

Also, the engine is not in the TDC position yet. I also know I need to put it in TDC at some point at assembling everything back.

My questions now are.

1) Am I doing wrong in some point?

2) As the timing belt, and the rest of the engine, got to move by it self without the camshaft, could the car be out of time, or synchronization?

3) If it so, is there a better way to put it at time, without having the pain to open the whole timing covers, to rearrange the belts position?

4) Do you guys know any place or website, to see how to assembly everything back?

5) Did the camshaft break at cause of the overheating? Or the mechanic who changed the timing belt at almost a year ago tied the belt too much? Or my rude driving? (22yo guy, 2nd car.)

6) Finally, was the ticking really the sprocket hitting something or the valves were out of alignment?
If it so, would I need to do a Valve job after all this? Or realign the valves in some point?


I would really appreciate that you guys helped over this question, it is 2am, and ill be trying to fix this problems today Monday.

Thanks again

Yury San Martin


yurysanm@hotmail.com MSN Messenger
zero123zero AIM





Modified by zerobacan at 12:00 PM 1/9/2006

TouringAccord

well, it sounds like the ticking you heard after the cam gear spun on the cam was the valves making contact with the pistons. Kinda like what happens when a timing belt breaks.

You'll probably be further ahead to find a head on eBay or at a junkyard and hope you didn't damage the pistons. I'm not sure what the cost of all the parts would be opposed to just getting a used head off eBay or a junkyard but if this is your daily car and down time is a concern, it may be faster to just swap the head. Deffinately find out if the valves are bent or not first before going and buying a head or parts.

As for the timing, you'll need to remove the timing belt covers from the side of the motor and line everything back up. I don't know the mileage of the car but since your doing all this work, you may want to consider replacing the timing belt, balancer shaft belt and water pump as well if you are unsure of it's last service date or if it's been done at all.

There is a step-by-step on how to replace a timing belt on a 2.2L Honda but your best bet is to get a service manual, preferably a Helm manual they are worth it. I'll see if I can find that step-by-step.

P_Adams

Actually, this failure is caused by one of two reasons;
1) Breaks just behind sprocket
..... Sprocket retainer bolt worked loose, allowing sprocket to start wobbling and impacting side loads to the camshaft. Many times caused by incorrect torque applied during previous timing belt replacement.
2) Camshaft breaks mid-point.
..... Seized in head from either oil starvation, or localized overheating. Can be caused by sludge buildup (starvation as pump pickup clogs with sludge from pan) or Overheating from sudden coolant loss (radiator failure or a "HORSE" blows out.

[quote] "same time I changed a failure horse that made my car over heated for third time" [quote].

You should at least pull the head to determine if there's any collateral damage. If none is found, follow TouringAccord's suggestion and at the minimum get a head assembly for it.

P

Honda-Master

get a low miles Japanese engine in it call these guys they are located in CA. 1-866-532-7878.....

TouringAccord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by P_Adams &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) Breaks just behind sprocket
..... Sprocket retainer bolt worked loose, allowing sprocket to start wobbling and impacting side loads to the camshaft. Many times caused by incorrect torque applied during previous timing belt replacement.</TD></TR></TABLE>

meaning the cam breaks just behind the sprocket? Wouldn't that cause the cam gear to drop down into the timing covers to the tensioner/water pump area?

By this statement...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zerobacan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Then I decided to open the valve cover, to see what was wrong, as I opened it, I let the the engine move for like 15 seconds and I found out that the sprocket was moving along with the timing belt (good, I didn't have the timing belt broken) but the valves were not moving with it.

I continued to remove the timing belt upper cover, and I sadly found out that the union between the sprocket and the camshaft had been horrible broken and the sprocket was moving by it self-destroying the camshaft even more.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I assumed he meant the sprocket had spun on the camshaft.

P_Adams

Like sheared the key-way? Could be.
Or maybe the Camshaft broke just behind the first Camshaft Bearing Journal
...no cam action, but the front snout was still supported and intact.

That's why I gave both camshaft break scenario's

P

Then again: Cam seized, didn't break, but sheared the key right off the front on the cam. It's possible. (I just hadn't seen one yet)

TouringAccord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by P_Adams &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Like sheared the key-way? Could be.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah, thats what I was thinking.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by P_Adams &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Or maybe the Camshaft broke just behind the first Camshaft Bearing Journal
...no cam action, but the front snout was still supported and intact.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Could, I wasn't thinking of that.

213374U

Camshaft breaking for no reason!?!?!? Happens all the time.... Hell, just the other day my half-shaft snapped and just fell off while it was parked in the driveway....... FOR NO REASON

voiceinurhead05

1) Am I doing wrong in some point?

Everything sounds about right so far

2) As the timing belt, and the rest of the engine, got to move by it self without the camshaft, could the car be out of time, or synchronization?

It most likely is out of timing. there's no telling where the crank position wouond up in all of this, unless you check it.

3) If it so, is there a better way to put it at time, without having the pain to open the whole timing covers, to rearrange the belts position?

As far as I know, that's exactly what you have to do. You will have to set the #1 piston to Top Dead Center (TDC) and set the postition of the camshaft accordingly (no pun intended)

4) Do you guys know any place or website, to see how to assembly everything back?

I don't but I would imagine there are plenty. There are actually some places where you can download free shop manuals. Just search for "honda shop manuals" on google or something.

5) Did the camshaft break at cause of the overheating? Or the mechanic who changed the timing belt at almost a year ago tied the belt too much? Or my rude driving? (22yo guy, 2nd car.)

I would say that the overheating incident was the culprit. It weakened yor camshaft. You may want to check your oil for metal filings as well. If there are some, check your bearings and pistons too.

6) Finally, was the ticking really the sprocket hitting something or the valves were out of alignment?
If it so, would I need to do a Valve job after all this? Or realign the valves in some point?

It's possible, but not likely. Before it broke, your camshaft was probably warped, which would cause inaccurate valve lift, which would cause your ticking sound. This should go away when the camshaft is replaced. If not, then you may need a valve job.

zerobacan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Vt4cPwn35 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Camshaft breaking for no reason!?!?!? Happens all the time.... Hell, just the other day my half-shaft snapped and just fell off while it was parked in the driveway....... FOR NO REASON </TD></TR></TABLE>

i know i was being sarcastic. I know it could be any of the reason stated, lack of oil, overheating or over tight of the sprocket nut.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TouringAccord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, it sounds like the ticking you heard after the cam gear spun on the cam was the valves making contact with the pistons. Kinda like what happens when a timing belt breaks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think it got that messed up because, the car ran perfectly til it didn't work anymore, the sprocket disconnected from the camshaft.. and the i got the timing belt changed a year ago, at 160ks. lol i know...


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by P_Adams &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) Breaks just behind sprocket
..... Sprocket retainer bolt worked loose, allowing sprocket to start wobbling and impacting side loads to the camshaft. Many times caused by incorrect torque applied during previous timing belt replacement.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm guessing that was the cause of all this. because (and I'm going to post a pic of it) the par where the camshaft connects with the sprocket is completely smashed because the sprocket spun on the camshaft.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TouringAccord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">meaning the cam breaks just behind the sprocket? Wouldn't that cause the cam gear to drop down into the timing covers to the tensioner/water pump area?</TD></TR></TABLE>

it didn't, it stayed in his position turning with the timing belt, but not moving the camshaft. and yep, it spun on the camshaft.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by P_Adams &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Then again: Cam seized, didn't break, but sheared the key right off the front on the cam. It's possible. (I just hadn't seen one yet) </TD></TR></TABLE>

i get you a pic of it...

and thanks all you guys and voiceinurhead05 for your answers, I'm going to find a camshaft now, and replace it, and assembly everything back. lets hope, the pistons are not damage, as i expect, and i haven't loss the timing.

and if anybody know a good place to find a new or used camshaft. would be appreciated. i live in riverside California, that Southern ca. and yep, i have all Haynes manual always with me

Yury

P_Adams

The reason I suggested pulling the head is to determine what (if any) additional damage may have been done to the piston tops.
The Cylinder Head sounds to be toast, considering it appears the cam seized in the head, causing either the sprocket key to shear off or the cam to break all together.

Why suspect piston damage? The F22 is the first of Honda's "Interference" engines, whereas damage would occur if the Cam/Crankshaft co-ordination were to fail. (Timing Belt breaks). No matter at what point the belt breaks, the camshaft stops; but the crank (and pistons) don't. Any valves which are held open by the now stopped cam hit the rising pistons and are either bent, or damage the tops of the pistons.

You're still going to have to determine why it (the cam) seized. If you've any sludge under the valve cover, you've also got it in the oil pan as well. It could have starved the oil pump.

P

Honda-Master

get a low miles Japanese engine in it call these guys they are located in CA. 1-866-532-7878.....

Do not even waste your time removing the head......I have seen a few of these problems, by the time you replace the head, for a few hundred dollars more you can get a complete low miles engine,, .Keep in mind you still might have lower end problems

hondadude

Yeah I've got one of those "low miles" japaneese motors in my shop right now; about 3 pounds of sludge under the valve cover, and the T-belt teeth are cracking off; I'll bet that it has at least 125k miles on it. I got suspicious when it showed up all repainted. I've also gotten these "low mile" engines and run VIN inquirys on them to find out the really have way more miles than advertised. The bastards are now cutting off the VIN tags before they ship the engine to us. BUYER BEWARE!!

P_Adams

How true, It's been a real shell game with these "Exclusive JDM" importers. I can't count the number I've deleted from my "favorites" list over the last year. Just how many Preludes and pristine junk Honda's do these kids think populate Japan? i wouldn't be surprised some are being recycled when returned for a warranty failure.
An eye opener? Try calling the Secretary of State for the state these guy's do business, and ask how long they've been doing business. Sometimes they come back with 5 months to 1 year, I actually had one come back as "Who?". They never bothered to register as a business in the state of California.
Some just rent a Commercial Condo and fill the back room with used motors.

Me? If I can't touch it, can't inspect it and can't be assured they (the seller) will still be there a year from now, I don't buy it.

P

rest assured, not everything is solved with a JDM "low milage" engine.

zerobacan

thanks guys, i already bought a camshaft for 89 buck in a well known auto parts here. i got the new o-rings and gaskets. ill be asembling everything back again

ill keep you guys update, and thanks again

yury

Eddiebx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda-Master &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">get a low miles Japanese engine in it call these guys they are located in CA. 1-866-532-7878.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda-Master &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">get a low miles Japanese engine in it call these guys they are located in CA. 1-866-532-7878.....

Do not even waste your time removing the head......I have seen a few of these problems, by the time you replace the head, for a few hundred dollars more you can get a complete low miles engine,, .Keep in mind you still might have lower end problems</TD></TR></TABLE>

i think he got the point, why is it so important to you that he buys a motor from them?


so do you think it costs the same to have a head pulled, as it is to have an entire longblock changed? you forget to factor in labor which most likely will cost as much as getting a longblock.


for the original poster, i woudl do what everyone else says, and pull the head to check for damage, and then go from there. u might get away with no damage, or maybe jsut bent valves who knows

213374U

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eddiebx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think he got the point, why is it so important to you that he buys a motor from them?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Spam

BLKFLSH

I guess he's just going to pivot the cam sprocket off the timing belt, then try and pivot the new cam under the belt in the same position. Then crank her up and pray. Do you think there is a chance of it working? Is it possible to do it without taking the end covers off?

P_Adams

It sounds like performing Gastric Bypass Surgery thru the patient's nose!

Hey, all I can do is advise. I can't afford to get all weepy when they decide to walk the path untested.
I'd love to be the fly-on-the-wall when that thing fires up.

P

BLKFLSH

Would it be possible to change a cam that way though? If nothing else needed to be changed. For instance if someone wanted to try a different cam with minimal tear-down.

P_Adams

At the very minimum, you've got to get the timing belt covers, and the valve cover off to gain access. Plus he'll have to remove the L/S inner wheel well to align the lower timing marks.
After that he'll have to remove the Camshaft retainer caps with the associated cam follower pivot shafts. At that point he may run into galled camshaft bearing surfaces (metal transfers between the two components as they weld together), bringing this half-As..d project to a screaming halt.
With any luck, he'll find the reason for his oil starvation; a nice thick layer of baked on sludge to remind him of what's in the oil pan.

And then there's assembling it without a manual, phasing the camshaft, readjusting the valve lash.
I'm glad I'm nowhere near it.

P

Honda-Master

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondadude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah I've got one of those "low miles" japaneese motors in my shop right now; about 3 pounds of sludge under the valve cover, and the T-belt teeth are cracking off; I'll bet that it has at least 125k miles on it. I got suspicious when it showed up all repainted. I've also gotten these "low mile" engines and run VIN inquirys on them to find out the really have way more miles than advertised. The bastards are now cutting off the VIN tags before they ship the engine to us. BUYER BEWARE!! </TD></TR></TABLE>

i would never advice something that i have not tried or done personally........i have installed engine from this company for the past 6 years , they give 1 year warranty, and as to date, have never had to use it,, and yes i do remove and inspect the valve train (so far always clean ).. and the timing belt before i install it on any of my customer's cars ,,i have to give them a warranty as well and i DO NOT want to do the job twice.......

the reason i gave the phone # is because out of the 4 companies i have used over the past 10 years these guys sell the best product ,,like i said for the past 6 years i have dealt only with them with NO PROBLEMS,,..

Ehy guys i am not trying to sell it to you ,,just an advice if you decide to use it fine and if not is fine the same ..

Anyho.. if the camshaft broke, ( seized up ) it was due to lack of oil, which means where the cam rides ( head cam bearing ) is all screwed up , you cannot replace just the cam, it is just like putting a band-aid in a 20 inch cut ,you need to replace the head assembly ..and if it is oil starvetion it also tells me that there is damage to the lower end..that is why i reccomended the whole engine ,,it will be cheaper in the long run .......

zerobacan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by P_Adams &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">At the very minimum, you've got to get the timing belt covers, and the valve cover off to gain access. Plus he'll have to remove the L/S inner wheel well to align the lower timing marks.
After that he'll have to remove the Camshaft retainer caps with the associated cam follower pivot shafts. At that point he may run into galled camshaft bearing surfaces (metal transfers between the two components as they weld together), bringing this half-As..d project to a screaming halt.
With any luck, he'll find the reason for his oil starvation; a nice thick layer of baked on sludge to remind him of what's in the oil pan.

And then there's assembling it without a manual, phasing the camshaft, readjusting the valve lash.
I'm glad I'm nowhere near it.

P</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well first, too bad I can’t put the pictures here yet.

The camshaft broke right where the sprocket is, right outside the valve cavity. The sprocket is even separated from the valves, by an o-ring, and all the debris stayed with the sprocket, I even assembled the part back to see if I have any missing. The camshaft is almost intact where all the oil is and there is no metal in any part of the cam, I already bought the camshaft, the o-rings and gaskets needed, finally I cleaned all the oil and lubricated the valves head and etc.

Second, the car was over two tripod, the wheels were not even touching the ground when the camshaft (the union with the sprocket) broke, and the engine was also on idle speed. So I'm prying to don’t have that much damage. But as you recommended, I would open the engine, to check out the piston heads, to see if they got in anyway in contact with a closed valve, and to make sure, I don’t have any damaged valve, or piston head

Thirdly the camshaft doesn’t need that much regulation, when I move the engine to the TDC position, having the timing belt also at the right position (read point number 4). With the timing belt connected to the rest of the engine, I have to put the sprocket with the arrow, UP, and connect the camshaft to it, the camshaft as you know, makes the valves to open or close. As I put the cam, in the "right" position, the valves should automatically also be set to the "right" position, then ill have to put the distributor at the right position, using the manual. And the engine would be on "time". Ready to be fired.

(4) Finally, the timing shouldn’t be that hard. The timing beside the valves part is on time, because the rest of the engine was never interrupted in any way. I just need to find the marks my mechanic should had left in the belts and in the engine, from the last timing belt change (1 year ago). On the TDC position. And install everything back and run the baby.

I hope this theory results. Tomorrow at first time, I will continue assembling everything back.

PD. I do have a manual Haynes for this car.

Good luck to me, and more comments info, and questions will be great!!

Thanks!

Yury

YeuEmMaiMai

IF you starved the engine of oil and that is the reason that the cam broke, I say go straight to rebuild. By time it is said and done, you most likely have main bearing damage as well. I would not even waste my time with that motor unless you are going to replace it with a long block or have it rebuilt.

Reason for this: by the time you have everything inspected for damage and get it repaired or replaced, you will have spent more than if you would have dropped in a rebuilt motor. I'd buy one from a JY before I get a so called JDM motor from an unknown business that you cannot verify how long they have been around..........I bought a used 3.8L for a 1992 sable and it lasted another 90K before it blew a head gasket due to a hose rupture. it had 55K on it when i bought it.

TouringAccord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zerobacan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well first, too bad I can’t put the pictures here yet. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Why not? Are trial members not allowed to or something?


Here is that How-To I was refering to earlier. Also, I don't like those Haynes or Chiltons manuals, especially for a job like this. I would much rather have a Helm manual instead. The Helm manual does cost more but it's worth it.