rotorbudd

I've looked thru most of the threads on this to get an idea of the difficulty of this project.
Wife's trans started slipping on the 1/2 shift, hard downshift into 1st when stopping. All other operations are normal.
I changed the fluid twice with a lot of black sludge (no chips or flakes) on the mag plug.
This morning it got so bad that she couldn't drive to work. I changed the fluid again, more sludge, drove several miles with same problems.
My question is: I'm a helicopter/aircraft mechanic (30+ years) so can I, with a manual and overhaul kit get this transmission rebuilt?
From all the posts it seems the main problem will be the clutch packs are worn out.
Thanks for any help,
Richard Budd

Turbowa

You can. But you MUST purchase the Helms manual for the car. This is the same one the factory uses. When you replace the friction disc's on the clutch packs there is a shim ring on the end that snaps in. There are a ton to chose from and are only listed in the manual. You will also need to purchase new bearings, nuts, washers, and gaskets. All in all Its cheaper and more timely to just replace it with a reman unit. These have come way down in price form honda over the last couple of years. The parts that you will need for the tranny add up to around $1500-1800. The price for a reman unit is around $2500. And if you don't get those cluch packs just right you will be taking it back out to try all over again. Trust me I've rebuild plenty of these. The first time I did it I had to take it in and out of the car 3 times before it was perfect. Also there are alot of one time use parts that have to come off every time. So each time you take it apart you have to replace these parts to be reliably.

Also if rebuilding plan on the car being down atleast a week due to having to order parts and install/tear down time.

If you just replace the tranny it can be done in one day. Hell I have it down to about 4-5 hours to remove and replace them.

rotorbudd

Thanks for the quick reply.
I've got the manual on the way. I don't need to rush this, the car will be sitting in the hanger at work, I can order parts online.
I'd rather do it myself and know it's right than just stick something unknown in.
I have no trouble reading and understanding a manual. If the manual is through enough it shouldn't be too hard should it?

YeuEmMaiMai

i would get all the the service updates that have been made to the car. Your Helms manual may or may not have these updates depending upon publish date

rotorbudd

Yea, I used the correct fluid. It helped at first, but after 3 or 4 K it crapped out.
I got it into work this AM. I manually shifted it on the way in. After about 10 miles it started sticking in 2nd. So I just drove it in like that.
I've got an overhaul kit, gaskets, seals, drive and driven clutch plates, etc on the way. Plenty of online parts available (Honda or aftermarket)
I'll take lots of pictures, so maybe I can post them to help the next guy.

Turbowa

I always use factory parts. Rotorbudd you will need to go to the dealer to order atleast the shims for the cluch packs. They are not listed in the parts cataloge. The part numbers are only in the helms manual. Most of the updates are this way too.

sublime423

I am a 12year Honda dealer tech do you think I should rebuild the turbine engine in my Apache if I get the proper service manual?

sublime423

your right we don't rebuild as many engines and transmissions as the independents....why? becasue it is not cost effective.

rotorbudd

I've probably overhauled 50 helicopter gearboxes over the years . This entails NDT , setting up gear patterns, run in, and flight tests.
I doubt you have a clue what a turboshaft engine even is.

sublime423

You might be suprised.....I am gonna bust out my a&p license

Jim Truett

Disregard the haters. It's not a terribly complicated rebuild. I am not a fan of the OEM clutches with the large oil grooves (reduced friction area) or the OEM fluid. I have more than a year on mine that I did myself.





















Cleanliness is the most important aspect of the rebuild. Also, make sure all of the valves move freely in their bores. Do not overtorque the valve body bolts. It is easy to distort it and cause the valves to bind.

http://cl.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=492261

YeuEmMaiMai

Jim, there is a reason those clutches have large oil passages........but hey whatever floats your boat......

there is a problem with 2nd gear lubrication so they increased the units oiling capacity along with relocating the filter to be inline with the cooler.......

Jim Truett

No, I don't know anything about transmissions, could you please enlighten me.......


I am actually surprised you didn't mention that my diff carrier bearings are going to fail at any time....

Sorry, but my transmission is not a stock Honda unit, and I am not looking for the super soft stock shifting either. I do not run the OEM fluid with it's flash point at that is only slightly higher than the temps seen under a 1-2 and 2-3 full load shift. The Z1 ATF has been shown to oxidize in less than 15k miles under normal service. I run a full synthetic Mercon 5 based fluid.

Turbowa

Don't forget that they also added an oil jet kit for that clutch pack as well. I believe its also for 3rd gear too.

powermaker

Can anyone say what the real issue is/was with these transmissions from 98-02? I worked as a dealership mechanic for Honda back in the late 80's when you could not kill these things(I tried!!). I just bought a 2000 4 cyl/auto w/140k knowing that these transmissions had issues(this car has a rebuilt trans from somewhere, not Honda), and would like to know what were/are the problems. I hear of clutch pack failures, carrier bearings, and updates to oil lubrication. How long can I count on a rebuilt lasting? I will use this as a commuter to replace a Geo metro(go ahead and make fun!!) with 413k miles, same motor/trans, and would like to what I can to make it last with the least amount of work. I look forward to replies from the group.

YeuEmMaiMai

1. axle seals leak because differental bearings are made from substandard material. they cause the main inline screen filter to clog.......which in turns causes 2nd gear clutch packs to go bye bye becuase they are already low on lubrication.

2. 2nd gear clutch packs wear at an accellerated rate due to lower lubrication levels

3. 2nd gear shaft overheat resolved by installing an oil jet kit........


newer reman units (05+) have relocated the filter to be inline with a cooler line, better differential bearings, and increasted pump capacity along with differnet clutch packs


but I am sure Jim could tell you that as well...........


Bottom line is if you want the unit to operate properly, rebuild it to the latest specs available from HONDA and do not rely on someone who rebuilt it to their own specs and tells you hey it's running fine for a year..........

rotorbudd

OK, I've got this trans ready to drop out except for one issue. Manual says to remove "center beam". This car has no center beam. See pix below.
Question I've got is; will the trans drop past the box beam on the R/H side?
If not I've got to remove the beams which are spot welded to the fwd cross beam.

BTW, thanks for the help everybody!

YeuEmMaiMai

that black bar is the center beam.........

rotorbudd

If it is it's welded to the forward cross beam where the forward radius arm is thru bolted.The forward crossbeam supports the forward engine mount and the left hand side is also spot welded to the forward cross beam where the left hand radius arm is attached to the cross beam. All of this has to come out?

see the pix I just uploaded
Maybe I can get some better pix tomorrow AM

rotorbudd

Well, I guess I'll just have to do it.
But I think some one inch square tubing and a TIG welder will be cheaper than a helicopter!

Turbowa

If you don't have a way to support the engine its not the end of the world. Just leave the rear mount in and un-bolt it from the tranny. It will hold the majority of the wieght.

sublime423

this is going to be fun to watch.

fyi no engine holder is needed....

i see you removed the radius rod..should have left attached to the front beam (center beam)

to remove the center beam
there are 6 17mm bolts in the back 3 on each side

2 17mm bolts in the front 1 on each side

unbolt the radius rods from the lower control arms

unbolt the three 14mm bolts from the front engine mount bracket

don't forget to undo the clips for the power steering cooler lines on the engine side of the beam

that's enough to get you in to some trouble.

powermaker

1. axle seals leak because differental bearings are made from substandard material. they cause the main inline screen filter to clog.......which in turns causes 2nd gear clutch packs to go bye bye becuase they are already low on lubrication.

2. 2nd gear clutch packs wear at an accellerated rate due to lower lubrication levels

3. 2nd gear shaft overheat resolved by installing an oil jet kit........


newer reman units (05+) have relocated the filter to be inline with a cooler line, better differential bearings, and increasted pump capacity along with differnet clutch packs


but I am sure Jim could tell you that as well...........


Bottom line is if you want the unit to operate properly, rebuild it to the latest specs available from HONDA and do not rely on someone who rebuilt it to their own specs and tells you hey it's running fine for a year..........[/QUOTE]

YeuEmMaiMai, would you recommend install of external filter in the cooler line? Don't know where this one was rebuilt, it has really pretty silver paint!!, but figure whatever I can do make it last!! My plan after reading other forums was to swap out the 3qts of fluid w/ATF-Z1 every 15k and keep an eye on the color for any bad signs!!

Atomkane

Subs

iamtwan

just curious, how much would this cost to have a shop do it?