photojunky

I have a 94 Accord, manual with 135,000 miles on it. Early this year
(it was still winter here on the east coast) I started to see this
problem - after I start the car and have driven about 4-5 miles on the
highway (the temperature gauge at midway point), a 'thug...thug...'
kind of sounds starts up and I can feel the vibrations in the steering
wheel and the floor. It starts off soft and then gets really loud -
as thought the car is just going to go 'plunk' on the highway. I
have to slow down to almost 30mph on the highway to safely get home.
The sound is continuous with a frequency of 2/sec. It happens in all
the gears BUT only when my foot is on the gas. It does not happen when
I am coasting in gear (foot not on gas) or in neutral, say downhill. It
is more prominent when the wheel is straight or turned to the right,
not to the left. It does not happen if I am driving in the city or on
the local streets (STOP & GO). It also seems to decrease when I get off
at an exit and am back to driving at 25-30mph.

I have taken it to a Honda Dealer (O'Donnell Honda Service Center,
Ellicott City, MD) 4 times.

First time then had me replace the Reman Shaft - $900 odd. I had barely
driven out of the shop, and the noise started again - so I turn
around and go back. They ask me to leave it in the shop. Now they say
that the brake calipers are hanging and so, they replace that along
with the whole brake assembly, drum etc, etc. - over $700

Then summer came along and I never heard the noise again. A few weeks
ago, as it started to get cold, the problem crept up again.

I took it back to the dealer and told them that they had made me spend
all this money and the problem is not gone. Since the repair was under
warranty - they agreed to take a look at it. I told them that they
need to drive at least 4-5 miles before they'll begin to hear the
noise. I am sure they did not, they made a note on the work order, that
it was raining and so they could not hear the noise. The noise again
seemed to have disappeared.

Last week, 'whatdoyouknow', the noise started again. Took it back
to them and this time I expressed my frustration that this is happening
way too often and for them to fix it for once and all. I get a call
after they 'diagnosed' it and the service rep. tells me that the
exhaust is an after-market on, so the whole assembly needs to be
changed. I told them that if that was the case, then it should happen
all the time, plus the sound and the vibrations seem as though they are
coming from the front wheel area and not from under the body of the
car.

Even the Service Shop Manager could not diagnose the problem, even
after expressing frustration; I got him to go on a test drive with me
and demonstrated the noise. He then says it may be from the balancing
of the wheel - and I know that is not the case, since I had got that
done less than a year ago, plus, again, if that is the case,
shouldn't it be happening all the time.

Sorry for the long post, to summarize...The noise starts under the
following conditions only,

After having driven 4-5 miles at highway speeds
When foot is on gas
All gears
Outside temperature is slightly cold (less than 60 deg F)
Wheel is straight or turned right

I give up - does any one here have a clue???

HondaMike17

hmm, a whole break assembly, you got good rotors then i suppose, **** man, your break system had nothing to do with it..

with all the money they made you spend for that crap, you could have gotten new CV boots and joints, bearings etc. and that would have probably fixed your problem

HondaMike17

ive never heard of dealers rippin people, thats a strange tale to my ears

BLKFLSH

When you are under 30mph does it make the noise, even if you are on the gas? If you take off from a dry stop, hard on the gas, does it do it then?

jweller

Few thoughts

1) I'm assuming a reman shaft is a remanufactured axle. $900 is complete robbery if they replaced both of them and it sounds like they only did one.

2) $700 for whatever they did to the brakes is also robbery

3) you should have been refunded or given partial credit on labor for the 1st $900 job if it didn't even come close to fixing the problem. You should have to pay for the parts, but if they didn't fix the problem, they should be giving you some sort of break on additional work.

4)STOP GOING TO THAT DEALER! I know that the perception is that you get better, more knowledgeable service at the dealer. frankly, in some cases, thats just not true. a lot of people working at dealerships are not mechanics, they are parts replacers. More often the case is that because they get paid flat-rate, they are disinterested in spending the time to diagnose a problem. try a different dealership or an independent shop. there are a lot of dealerships in the Baltimore/Washington metro area. Convenience is nice but even if a dealership is 2 mins away, taking your car back 4 times is far more inconvenient than driving 30 mins out of your way once.

5) It could be a wheel bearing, it could be the other axle. It could be as simple as loose lug nuts, although I would think this is unlikely. with your mileage it could also be a badly worn ball joint.

My advice is to <U>take the car somewhere else.</U> I would recommends Hondamans over in Pasadena on Ritchie hwy(410-544-0566). I do most of my own work but if i get stuck or don't have the time, thats where I take my car. they are honest, use only Honda parts, and their rates are fair. they aren't the cheapest around, but they will do the job right, and fix it the first time. If you would like to take it to a dealership then ourisman in Laurel is good and so is Honda of Bowie. I know a couple people who have had problems with Honda of Annapolis, and also College Park Honda so I would avoid them.

photojunky

thanks for the reply.. these are the things that I have already replaced. I guess the only thing that is not replaced is the CV joints.

Reman Shaft, Fr. Brake Disc, Fr. Pad Set, Fr. Bearing Assembly, R Fr Caliper, Core Return, L Fr Caliper, Core Return, Brake Dot Fluid, Brake Rotors, Master Cylinder

YeuEmMaiMai

Engine mount is the first thing I would check. Front one. ALso check your subframe bolts, upper strut mounts, front wheel bearings.

photojunky

not at the beginning. Only after I have driven a while at highway speeds, then the sound starts coming at 60mph, so I ease on the gas, the speed drops to, say, 55mph, the sound dissappears, and then I start hearing it at the reduced speed also. I have never really had to go below 40 mph on the highway, for the sound to be bearable. Once I am off the highway on to a local street, I can't hear the sound below 40 mph or so.

photojunky

thank you very much for your detailed reply. I am definitely not taking it back to these guys. On the other hand, thinking if I have an recourse in Small Claims Court - frustrates to get taken...

I am going to call around and make sure the next mechanic understands all that has happenned so far and get it taken care off the first time.

photojunky

if this is the case, then shouldn't the sound start as soon as I start any given day, cold or hot, before I have driven the 4-5 miles.

YeuEmMaiMai

I am just giving you ideas as to what may cause that noise. I think that if you start looking at suspension parts you will get the problem solved. Could be lower ball joints it could be the upper or lower wishbone............

accordredliner

not sure what the problem is but I know for sure that 900 bucks for axle swap is a rip off.

How could u let them charge u $900 dollars for axles?

BLKFLSH

I may be way off here, but I would check for anything loose under the car. Maybe something is being blown around by the wind, and banging against the undercarriage. Make sure the fenderwells and other plastic pieces are secure. Maybe it doesn't do it all the time because there has to be wind blowing in a certain direction to make whatever it is flap around under the car. You could get someone to follow you, and look under the car to see if they can spot something moving under there. Just grasping at straws here. It just sounds like a speed/wind problem to me.

photojunky

yep - feel like a sucker - i went there trusting these guys to fix the problem. and when they assured me that this would take care of it, I figured, let me just get it fixed, rather than worrying about shopping around. The car was already there in their shop. Now I know, from this forum, the logic with which dealer mechanics operate. i knew their rates and charges are higher, but I trsuted them to atleast diagnose the problem and fix it. now I know better.

BLKFLSH

Did they at least fix the problem?

photojunky

BLKFSH, nope they haven't fixed the problem and are just making random suggestions - like asked me to change the exhaust system the last time. I asked them, if they would give that in writing, saying that, it would fix the problem and they refused.

photojunky

you guys were right on the money.
turns out it was indeed the left axle. took my car this time to an
independent mechanic. he put it up on the lifts and showed me the
reason the sound was coming. there was quite a bit of play on the left
axle, compared to none on the right-new one. his explanation as to why
the sound started only after driving 4-5 miles was that it took some
time for the grease in the boot to be less viscous - *who knows*. the
motor mount was also cracked - but he said that there is no urgency to
replace that. he changed the axle, along with the boot and we took it
for a test drive - *NO SOUND* . cost me $200. thanks everyone - (^_^)

Hondaman56

Glad you got it fixed, but now you need $35,000 for butt surgery.

deserthonda

take the bill to the dealer, tell them what it took to fix the problem and ask for your money back................What did they exactly replace for $ 900 reman shaft?? what did they say is a reman shaft ??

YeuEmMaiMai

honda dealers here will install both shafts for about $650......

diyer

Photojunky,

I think you have an excellent claim of either fraud, gross negligence, violation of contract, and/or, deceptive and unfair trade practices that violated the consumer protection laws of your state. The statute of limitations is usually at least 2 years in most states under the Consumer Protection Laws (CPL). Some are longer, and most have even longer time limits for contract claims or tort claims. BUT ...

I can tell you several facts about this subject:

First, in all fairness to the techs out there that are honest and competent, it is the greed and incompetence of the shops like what happened to Photojunky, that gives the profession a bad name.

Mostly all the states, if not all, have Consumer Protection Laws (CPL) in place. They are usually named, for example, insert state name here &gt; "_________ Consumer Protection Act Against Deceptive and Unfair Trade Practices." Some states have further specific consumer protection laws just for automotive violations. A good place to file a claim is with the Attorney General's Office, CPL division, of your state, but they usually can do very little after a problem has happened - exception is the amount and severity of the damage. When the problem is actually happening they can offer the most help. Why, well for one, terrorists and 9-11, and other things are just more important in their eyes. They just don't have the time or manpower to enforce the CPL, unless you sue them for not doing anything to help you. Yes, it is that bad. Other reasons are low level help from law students or flunked-out-of-law-school-barely-passed-the-bar exam lawyers, that work for little money and are usually quite lazy (you get the pic).

You also ain't got a $500,000 Mercedes-Benz. If you did, the lawyers would be chasing you. But I think that far more priority is given towards auto accidents and personal injury than repair work. The priority in the US is $$$; and that is when and where you will meet the most resistance. If you have specific auto insurance that covers this matter, then your company can go after the dealership's company.

You could start there and if they fail to help, you could file a small claims case yourself. There will be a fee to file the claim, unless you are indigent (a pauper), and if so, then you can file what is called in Latin In Forma Pauperis (meaning you are under the poverty level - I think it is around $14 k right now). Anyway, if you do, here are some very disturbing facts:

The incompetence rate among auto mechanics is about 87% (about 13% are competent). This is one the major reasons they do not want to allow the vehicle owners/customers to watch the mechanics do the repair work. The loophole is that you could get hurt in the shop. You could but, it is used as an excuse - a legal excuse. That way mistakes can be covered up. No mechanic is going to tell you, "Oh, excuse me I repaired your car wrong" ... or, "Oh, gee, I accidentally broke some parts while I was trying to fix your car, so, please bring it back and I'll either give you your money back and/or restore all the damage I did for free."

The insurance industry knows just how incompetent auto mechanics are (as well as home contractors too), because vehicles have 17,000 parts on them, and is it just not humanly possible to diagnose a vehicle that fast, and get it right. Their motivation is to make as much $$$ as possible. And when $$$ is the priority and not competence, then the quality of the work suffers. The insurance industry will throw all kinds of money at the case to shut you down if you go pro se, because they do not want any precedents set, as a virtual floodgate would be open, because of all the incompetence. Note that auto repair issues are the most frequently complained about consumer problem.

(Parentetically, I personally went thru this myself. I had a 1985 MR2, and a Toyota Master tech said the shop that destroyed my engine knew they made a mistake. I litigated the case for seven years myself and the car became totaled indirectly from sitting so long due to the predicament they put me in - I had to leave all the evidence intact, ironic. I filed a case in one of the most corrupt counties of PA (known for favoring rich defendants), Montgomery County. The case was eventually dismissed in a Pa Appeals Superior Court, Styler v Gulf. I had strong evidence, but the defendants were represented by Ohio Casualty Insurance Company (a billion dollar company), and they went so far as to bribe some of the judges and my own lawyer who withdrew from the case. He claimed my money ran out. Ended up costing me over $5K and I got nowhere. Where was 20-20, 60 minutes, or the Feds for me? It was deliberately buried, because the case implicated too many people - politics 101 !). I pray that what goes around comes around.

Note: A few days ago, I told my Mom to get the tire air pressures checked in her vehicle, since I was too busy to check it for her that particular day. Some (bleep, bleep) mechanic put in 10 lbs psi over the max for the tire ... you have no idea just how bad it really is).

... And it will continue as long as the common man allows this industry to stay unregulated in practice. There just isn't enough laws in place and there are too many loopholes in the current law that allows clever lawyers for insurance companies to pummel owners of less costly vehicles, like Hondas (i.e., the average common mans vehicle these days), versus the rich man with a Mercedes-Benz, who can usually get a better lawyer.

PS. Did the dealership offer you the broken parts they replaced? I would my life on it that they didn't. The CPL law in probably every state requires that they do this. Of course they didn't, as that would have been evidence against them. I hope you can bust this particular (bleep, bleep) Dealership. They sound very sleazy. Hey! sue Honda, maybe Honda will get rid of them as an authorized dealership. I tried that with Toyota but they had cleverly written loopholes, and even bigger insurance companies representing them. If you call Honda, I guarantee that they will say the dealerships operate independent of them [HONDA]. Personally, I do not blame Honda directly, but they are far too passive with this issue. So, maybe they are indirectly to blame, after all.

Seriously, find someone that practices black magic and wish destruction on them, as that may be as close to justice in this country that you will ever see. I knew as soon as I read your post that you were ripped badly, and incompetently, if not deliberately. Very sorry to hear of your loss.





Modified by diyer at 5:11 PM 1/11/2006

accordisslow

Did u get your tie rods checked out both inner and outter?

SpeedFreak77

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by accordisslow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did u get your tie rods checked out both inner and outter?</TD></TR></TABLE>

WHY??? Why would you ask this when he already stated that he found out what the problem was.

And diyer awsome response with some great info, I hope some of that helps out photojunky. This is why I try to do most of my own work, I just can't afford to pay that much for someone else's mistake.