Xag

I have an automatic 94 accord EX. I recently replaced the clutch disks in the tranny and everything has gone back nice and smooth except the torque converter won't mount back onto the tranny.

I have tried several different things. Pushing, wiggling, rotating clockwise and counterclockwise, and even using a screwdriver to try to 'pop' it while I turn in push. This thing refuses to go onto the shaft, and doesn't even make it onto the first set of splines, and while rotating it, it feels like it's spinning smoothly, like it's touching smooth metal to metal without trying to grab any splines. I do remember it needing a prybar to pull off, and even then it didn't come off easy and it has been suggested that the inside may be ovaled out and I just need a new one. I have the A0YA transmission if that means anything.

SO! I have two questions relating to this.

1) Is there any OTHER idea or trick that this thing needs me to do to get it on? Because I've heard of a lot of different things down to mounting it to the engine first and then sliding the tranny on to force it.

2) If replacing it is my only option, does AOYA and BOYA trannys need different Torque Converters, or are they compatible? Because Autozone and Advance Auto both only sell the BOYA TCs, while Rock Auto sells both AOYA and BOYA, and the difference is less than an inch in diameter but I don't know if it changes whether it will work, because a lot of sites say AOYA and BOYA are compatible but never mention the torque converter or the difference diameters.

jollyhonda

So is it a difference in the overall diameter? Which shows to have the larger diameter? If your trans has the larger diameter, and everything else is the same, I would say you should be able to use the smaller diameter tc. A smaller diameter tc is a hot rodding trick, less rotating mass, faster spin up. Who knows, it may be worth looking into...

Xag

The two sizes are...

AOYA: Diam (in) : 10.063; B/S (in): 10.25; Pilot (in): 0.945; 22 Splines; Pads : 8 HOLES

BOYA: Diam (in) : 9.625; B/S (in): 9.865; Pilot (in): 0.945; 22 Splines; Pads : 8 HOLES


The first two measurements are different but I don't know what they are to know if it effects whether or not it will mate to my transmission. As I said, most people on other sites say the AOYA and BOYA transmissions are compatible with each other, but it's usually in regards to the transmissions themselves, not the torque converter. So I don't know if I need the AOYA torque converter for my AOYA tranny, or if it matters, since my local shops only sell the BOYA TCs. I thought that might be because it's universal but then rockauto sells both AOYA and BOYA so now I'm thinking it might actually matter.

I'm hoping it doesn't matter because I'll be able to get it cheaper and quicker from my local shops, but I can't afford to go on a guess, and have to send it back and get a refund and wait for shipping all over again from rockauto. But rockauto will be more expensive and longer and my money is really tight right now, and yet I need this car running so I'm kinda in a hurry, stuck, and might not have a choice at the same time so I'm hoping for a definite answer from this site, even if it's the less favorable one for me.

jollyhonda

I dont see anything in this specs to cause concern. I would give it a try

MAD_MIKE

TCs can be a PITA at times when trying to mount them. Sometimes that slip on with little effort, other times a Rubik cube would have an easier solution.

Verify inner shaft from the transmission has not slipped out or is too far foward. Main stator shaft is immobile and should not move.
Lube up the oil seals and shaft of the TC.
Only try to mount the TC with the transmission in its installed position. Do not turn the transmission up on end to 'aid' TC installation. This will make it very hard if not impossible to mount. You will be chasing the inner shaft to the turbine interface.
Clock the TC so that the slots on the TC are clocked to the nubs on the pump.
Slide the TC onto the shaft and gently roll it up and around to engage each shaft, rotating the TC back and forth should aid in engaging each spline. Do not force or shove the TC on. It needs to engage each shaft properly. Should be three clicks
Pump, Stator and Turbine. Turbine can be tricky, don't jam it when on the last one, just rotate back and forth and rock it up and down.

There are different TC diameters, but these do not affect installation of TC to trans. Diameters are for different stall speeds. This only affects the drive(flex) plate. Accords have two flanges bent 90° on the driveplate where the Ody with the larger TC have a flat driveplate

Xag where are you located? Might have a willing H-T member nearby who can help out.

Xag

Well. I read that a bit late and purchased a new one anyways.

The "do not tilt" advice is a great help, because that is pretty much what I've been doing the whole time. I've also been told to use a screwdriver to "bump" the TC onto the shaft which I've tried, but only while it's been tilted. I'm giving it another go, because my two roomates have had two separate ideas. One is to mount the TC to the motor and line up the tranny and slide it on, rotating the tc and flywheel and use the tranny being bolted on to pressurize the tc on. The other idea was to file the splines on the shaft with a triangle file, because he thinks my splines are messed up, but they look fine to me.

neither of these ideas sound legit, and while I don't mess with trannys, and both of them are mechanics, they don't mess with trannys either, but both ideas sound like really really bad ideas.

Also, I live in clarksville TN.

jollyhonda

Good call on your judgment of their advice. Never use bellhousing bolts to pull a tc into the trans. You can force it all together and you will end up trashing the pump on the trans in the process. If you have not already installed the new unit, give the old unit another shot and maybe you can take it back.

MAD_MIKE

This will not work. Only thing that you may accomplish is bending the TC input and breaking the bellhousing off. Never force the TC on.
De-burr them is fine if you need to, but do not reshape anything.
Yes they are.

Verify they are giving you the correct TC for your transmission.

How far on can you get the TC?
Just gently push it on while slowly rotating back and forth, if you are forcing it enough to move the transmission you are jamming up against something.
Verify there is not a plug inside the TC snout that you have forgotten to remove. TCs are usually shipped with a cup, cap, or plug on the snout to prevent material from falling into the TC.

Xag

I can't tell if it's rotating anything in the transmission or not. It doesn't make it to any of the three clicks, so I assume it isn't making it onto the first set of splines. It did ship with a cup that went over the snout, but nothing on the inside. It's the same problem I was having with the previous one.

I've rested it like it would be on the transmission and tried pushing it on again without any tilt but still nothing. If the shaft on the tranny is warped or the splines are bad, I can't tell, but I have no idea what is stopping this thing from going on at all.

djkurious

Its weird that the TC won't slide into position. I have done 3 of these tranny's and never had the issue you are experiencing. Whatever you do, don't use the transmission case to force it on, otherwise pump will go bye-bye.

Xag

The problem there is that both my roomates work on cars, one of which went to school for it, and they have a mutual friend that owned his own shop, and the three of them say to do it. Not force it on, but to attach it to the motor, and bring the tranny up to the engine and line up the bolts and slowly pull the tranny to the engine while spinning the TC back and forth to "pop" the TC into to the transmission, because apparently this is how they always do it.

What I have read online, and what you guys are saying, that is absolutely stupid to do, and can break something. But when I tell my one roomate that, it's like I've entirely insulted him. "So you're going to listen to random people online, instead of us who you know have been working on cars our whole lives?" is more or less what I get, followed by a refusal of help since I question everything they say. I myself am not by any means mechanically inclined. I've done everything on my car by following directions and manuals. If something isn't in the manual, or doesn't go like the instructions say (like this TC), I am lost and helpless. What's going to end up happening, is they're going to get tired of this car up on jackstands and just do it their way whether it breaks or not because "the laws of mechanics is just doing things until it works or breaks and trying to avoid breaking something is stupid because stuff breaks when you work on cars, it's part of mechanic work".

But I've been getting a ride to work 45 minutes away by another friend, who recently got a new job, and starts in another two weeks. If that shaft is messed up somehow, I might as well buy another transmission off ebay and pray it works. I wish I could adequately explain what it is this TC isn't doing, but it really feels like it slides on to a point and just stops. It doesn't lock on anything, it just rests on the shaft. I'm pretty sure it doesn't even attempt to go on the splines, because the snout of the TC only goes into the transmission as far as the O ring.

Xag

Update.

I have shown it to two mechanics. Neither are Honda or transmission specialists, but both have told me that the splines are good and the shaft isn't bent, and with this being a brand new TC they have absolutely no clue why they can't get this sucker on. I feel like something microscopic must be wrong and I just need a new transmission.

Hites

I've personally spent half an hour just spinning and wiggling a Honda tc to then have it just suddenly fall into place on the main shaft.
What part number tc and main shaft do you have?

MAD_MIKE

Can you post up some pics of both the trans and the TC?

Only thing I can think of is that the TC or the transmission is not what they are advertised as. I do not know if a C V6, J V6 or 98-02 F23 TC has any differences that would not allow the TC to slide on but looks just like the correct TC.

As for your roomate who is 'insulted' and will not help you anymore, he's a muppet.
If he cannot demonstrate how to get the TC on when the trans is on the bench/floor, then he is a true gobshite. Parts/tools do get damaged from time to time, TCs should never be forced or 'popped' on.

Xag

Ill get some pictures when I get home but the new TC is exactly the same as the old one. But I have the AOYA transmission and the TC that goes with it. I know that much. Any specific pictures you need?

MAD_MIKE

Trans case, trans case sticker, bellhousing, input shafts, 90° and inline to view any possible shaft damage/misalignment. Best pic you can take of inside the TC snout, and general measurements of the snout, notches in the TC snout vs the two teeth in the pump to verify the correct fitment.

slowcivic2k

Did you put the oil pump drive gears back in the same way? Reflex reaction. Some splines are not finish cut on both ends.

Pictures of the old and new converter would be helpful. I haven't had too many problems with Honda's, they should sit flush with the case if they are on all the way.

Do not mount it to the engine. The converter and transaxle are mounted as a unit. You run the risk of damage if you do that.

The bolt spacing between AOYA and BOYA is different, and once you get it in, it wont bolt up, but it will fit. The diameter of the unit should not make any difference, as the AOYA and BOYA case halves are very similar. I've nver tried it though, and I've actually never come across this yet myself. Measure your bolt spacing on the drive plate, and on the converter and see if they match, if not, wrong converter.

I would then start by evaluating the splines inside, and that the turbine and stator clutch turn freely.

Xag

Well. I actually don't know what the oil pump gears are to know if I even messed with it to have put them in upside down? And I had asked about the differant measurements between a AOYA and BOYA TC. I was assured they were fine. And I have tested that the TC does line up right with the drive plate and like I said it looks just like the old one. The only reason I bought it was because the old one wouldn't go on and I thought it was a bad TC.

MAD_MIKE

Dumois question.
TCs on the Hondas use an O-ring.
Verify there isn't an old O ring jammed into the trans, and that the new O-ring is lubed with trans fluid. If you are trying to install the TC with a dry shaft/O-ring...

slowcivic2k

[QUOTE=MAD_MIKE;50389556]Dumois question.
TCs on the Hondas use an O-ring.
Verify there isn't an old O ring jammed into the trans, and that the new O-ring is lubed with trans fluid. If you are trying to install the TC with a dry shaft/O-ring...

Yea, some of them also come with a spacing ring that prevents the front bearing from walking and blocking oil return. This will not come out with the converter, because the seal will catch it. Not many Honda transmissions use them, but just something to be aware of.

Also, I was referring to the bolt pattern on the converter. Does the converter mate up, and bolt down to the drive plate. The B/S measurement is the bolt spacing, like lug spacing, and it is indicated different.

Xag

[QUOTE=slowcivic2k;50390199]It does have an O ring but it came out with the old TC. The new one has an O ring on it and it does bolt to the drive plate. My roommates were deadset on trying to push the tranny to the TC so it was bolted on. Luckily it sticks out so far the bolts couldn't reach the engine block so he never got to try.

I'm trying to get my ride to come over earlier so he can take pictures and let me use them but I swear he's starting showing up later since then. I might be able to get ahold of my roommates phone but as soon as I can ill get some pictures up.

Xag

Distance it sticks out.





Front view.





Inside the bell housing.





Front of the shaft.





12:00 splines.





3:00 splines.





6:00 splines.





9:00 splines.





Close up of shaft.





Cruddy attempt at inner teeth.





Inside new TC.





Inside new TC.





Mouth of new TC.





Side by side of new and old TCs.





Inside of old TC.

MAD_MIKE

I can't recall how much interference the Starter may have on installing the TC, as I usually have it off. I suspect it may be interfering with your ability to properly roll the converter up enough to install.

slowcivic2k

The primary problem is the converter is not seating in the transmission, as evidenced by it protruding from the bell housing: These two surfaces need to be near flush.

The gear teeth appear okay, but I am not at your housing so.... yeah.

Does the OE converter fit on the shaft? If it does, a defect clearly exists on the replacement. If this is the case, get a replacement unit. I would also go a step further and measure the OD of the unit and compare it. It is obviously binding and refusing to install on something. If by some magic you do get the converter to seat, I would be very worried about wear and tear: If it goes on tight all the way, its going to produce wear somewhere over time.