RedBarn53

Hi, all. My first post here. Not sure if it's customary to post an introductory thread first or not but I'm just looking for some quick advice to help my sister-in-law out if you'll allow it.

Her 2000 Accord wouldn't start for her. I sprayed some starter fluid into the throttle body and it ran on that and then died. I suspected a bad fuel pump. Crawled under the car and gave the fuel tank several good whacks, and the car started up and is running fine as of now.

In my mind, that's certainly the sign of a bad fuel pump. Just wanted to confirm my theory before I allowed her to spend money on a new one, though.

It does throw two codes:

P1456 EVAP Emission Control System Leak Detected (Fuel Tank System)
P1491 EGR Valve Lift Insufficient Detected

She said the CEL has been on for ages, so there's really no saying which of these, if not both, were already being thrown. Whatever the case, I'm still thinking that the immediate issue is an aged fuel pump. I can't imagine that smacking the fuel tank would have "fixed" the problem if it was anything else. Agree or disagree?

Thanks. Greatly appreciate some input.

accordturb96

evap system usually has to do with the fuel cap. Try replacing it. EGR valve may need removed and cleaned. You will need to check fuel pressure at the rail before getting into replacing the pump.

94 accord typeR

search function or google (google will show u lots of honda-tech threads)

RedBarn53

I have researched these particular codes and haven't seen anything specifically relating to the fuel pump. That said, when there's a problem with the fuel pump and/or when the car cranks and cranks and doesn't start, codes seem to trip that aren't necessarily related to the specific problem. After all, there's no code I'm aware of that relates specifically to a fuel pump being faulty.

If we forget the codes and just focus on what happened, does it not make sense that it's a bad fuel pump? We could only get it started with starter fluid, and then when I smacked the tank a few times it fired right up. A dirty EGR valve would have nothing to do with this that I can think of. I know I sound like I'm answering my own question, but I just really don't want to see her spend money needlessly on a pump and I'm hoping for some validation or, if need be, contradiction.

Thanks again.

accordturb96

test fuel pressure. Crank no start can be a multitude of issues. EGR may create a rough running condition.

RedBarn53

Yes, but how many of these issues are "cured" by smacking the fuel tank a few times? Only one that I can think of. Isn't it common knowledge that you can get a faulty fuel pump to work again by smacking it?

Again, I don't want to sound like I'm asking for advice and then refusing it, I'm just asking, if "fixing" the car simply by smacking the fuel tank could be anything other than a bad fuel pump, what would it be? What other problem can be cured in this manner? Anything?

accordturb96

Typically a starter will act that way. I could imagine its possible to have a similar issue. If you can access the fuel pump wiring and connector in the trunk you can see if it is loose or shorting. Just so you aren't wasting money, I would start by checking to see if you're getting constant pressure and if the pump is working. Do you hear it come on even when the car doesn't start? or is it always quiet koeo?

RedBarn53

Yeah, just like a starter. It's a trick I learned long ago by a tow truck driver, who ended up saving me from needing his services. I've used the trick a dozen times since, it really works. Log it away, it might keep you from being stranded one day.

I couldn't find the pump at the time, looked under the rear seat and a little in the trunk area but didn't spot it. So I'm not sure if it was buzzing or not. Still seems to make sense to me, though. If it ran on starter fluid, then the problem was apparently that it wasn't getting any gas. And as soon as I smacked the tank, the car started and drove over 20 minutes home. An issue with the EGR valve wouldn't be related to this. However, when looking into those CEL codes, it sounds like there's a lot of other gizmos attached to or very near the fuel tank, and I guess I'm just concerned that one of those could be the culprit, and that whatever it is also happens to be prone to working again after a good smack. I kind of doubt it, though. Again, sorry if I sound like I'm asking and answering my own question. Guess I just felt obligated to hear someone else agree with me before I recommended a new pump.

I don't have any way to test the fuel pressure, and I wouldn't be familiar with what the readings should be if I did.

RedBarn53

Assuming I end up replacing the pump, I found these directions. Are they about as good as any or does someone know of a more detailed one with lots of pics? Not that it sounds in any way difficult.

http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/ac...57_Binder1.pdf

Thanks again, everyone.

holmesnmanny

Get a $20 fuel pressure tester kit from harbor freight to see if the pump is acting up.

accordturb96

he is too concerned with replacing the pump haha no sense in replacing things if they aren't tested to be broken or in operable.

RedBarn53

I guess I'm guilty there, but I talked to some mechanic friends (since this thread didn't get too much response) and they all agree it's the fuel pump. To me, that's about as good as testing it. My "parts guy" can get me one for $90, so throwing a new fuel pump in for that price isn't going to hurt anything, even if it's not the problem. It's a high mileage car and could surely use one at some point.

Everyone I talked to (besides on here) agrees that if it only ran on starter fluid then it wasn't getting any fuel, and it starting up and running after smacking the fuel tank could only possibly mean that the fuel pump was acting up. Unless it was some major coincidence (which I doubt, because we were trying and trying to start it) then it just makes sense.

RedBarn53

All that said, I'm not opposed to picking up the $20 fuel pressure tester and giving it a go. But is there a guide to using it and making sense of the readings? It'd be useless to me otherwise.

RedBarn53

Did some research using the search function here and on Google and I haven't yet found anything that talks about what the fuel pressure readings should be or what they could mean. Except that it will be 0psi if the pump isn't working and 30psi or so if it is. I haven't seen what kind of reading it might give if it's going bad, and I don't feel certain that in this particular case it would give a low reading even if it is the problem. It seems to have gone from not working at all to working just fine (remember, I drove it over 20 minutes home without the slightest performance concern).

I'm still surprised you guys haven't heard of smacking the fuel pump to get it to work. I've done this a lot of times, especially on my 2003 Jetta. It had a bad fuel pump for a few months because I couldn't afford to replace it. Whenever the car wouldn't start, I'd lift up the rear seat and smack the access panel, and away I'd drive. Never gave me a problem again when I finally sprang for a new one. I'm not convinced a fuel pressure test would have revealed anything, because I'm thinking that when it worked it worked fine. I'm afraid that's what's happening here. Still, I'm curious to hear more about testing for pressure if you can point me in the right direction.

accordturb96

its not that we don't know about smacking a motor its that were thinking on a deeper level as to the issue. Just because you hit the tank and it started working doesn't mean that the motor is bad necessarily. It is a possibility, BUT it can also be an electrical issue, a ground, etc. You are hitting the gas tank, that energy is translating into the whole entire back end of the car. So it can be anything related to the pump, not always the pump.

accordturb96

for the 2.3 the psi should be 38-46
3.0 psi will be 32-40
these readings are at idle. I would assume they need to be close to this with the key on engine off as well.

RedBarn53

The bad news is that I can't get the car to start at all anymore. The good news is that I can be more sure now that it's the fuel pump or something related. It doesn't hum at all, and I pulled the hoses off and there was zero fuel pressure. Nothing obviously wrong with the wiring or ground, but I guess that's still a possibility. Or it could be a relay. My gut is still going with the pump itself, though. Will let you know what happens.

RedBarn53

Circuits seemed good when tested with my test light, so I went ahead with the fuel pump swap. Car started right up afterwards. Case closed, I guess.