Taylor Woollen

So I used the same title as the introduce me post, but as I've gotten father in I figured I'd make a thread documenting some of my issues.

Short intro, I'm a truck guy, but commute 100 miles a day now. Bought an 03 vtec auto civic, but changing residency I would have had to get inspected and it's a scam. Bought a 97 Accord, sedan, F22b2 5 speed with 212k, leaks, squeaks, but overall wasn't running terrible. It has a CEL for serving O2, other than that, no codes. But I only paid $650, so I didn't expect much more.

I threw a junkyard k&N cone I found there one day, I got it for $5 and figured couldn't hurt. I also threw some new plugs in it with plans to do a bigger overhaul when work and family time (several kids) slowed down.

The car, however, had different plans, driving one minute, no issues, filled up, started driving and it cut off at a light. I cranked it up and it wasn't thrilled to start, but did still run, I knew we had issues so I limped 15 ish miles back home.


Here's ol girl in surgery prep.



Found some projector lights that are going in when I put it back together, and I just wanted to get all the plastic crap out of my way. So if it came.


​​​​Notice the tear on the valve cover gasket, explains one of my leaks.

Pulled EM, notice cylinder 1 missing a stud, and how black it is. Previous owner snapped a stud of at some point. That explains the exhaust leak.


Intake manifold out. I broke the nuts with an open end, managed to fit my flex head 1/4" between the runners to get most of them out. Underneath I had the one bolt holding the bracket to the manifold give up and break off. I'm considering going vtec, so that may be a non issue. Either way I'll get it out eventually.

I went ahead and got the mega socket, and the pulley holder. I have a 60 gallon compressor in my barn, but haven't moved it to my garage yet. I figured my 6 year old DeWalt battery impact wasn't going to break the bolt loose. I was right. Used the pulley holder, and two pry bars to break it loose. Not horrible, just had to figure out how to finagle the bar the holder was on.

Now, this started because after the car limped back home, I scanned it and was getting crank position sensor. Well, when that sensor poked his broken self out,I knew I was in for a treat.

And let me tell you, a treat is what I got.

Obviously, I was planning on replacing the belt anyway, but I got a chuckle out of finding it like that.

Looks like that CEL was right after all.

I have some clean up to do, and parts to order. I was contemplating whether or not to start a thread, but after finding the belt like that I thought others might get a kick out of it. I'm not looking for anyone to hold my hand, I've turned wrenches long enough I can usually work through issues. I also have been doing it long enough to know there's always people way smarter than me.

Ghost, touring, NZX, and a D name I can't remember are a few I've seen more than a few times. So feel free to chime in if you notice anything stupid I do along the way.

As mentioned, I'm considering going vtec. Depending on what I can find at my JY and what I can con my wife into letting spend. Either way I'm going to pull the head tomorrow, depending on how it looks that may make a decision for me. I know just from peaking, that the valves definitely could use a good cleaning.

Stick around and I'll post as I make progress, should have it back together within the next week or two. I traded my wife's expedition for a 92 bronco, and gave her my 06 F250 to drive the kids in. Long story short, bronco isn't driving 100 miles until I get the steering tightened so I'm in the truck she's supposed to be driving.

Happy Easter to all, I have some Ribeyes and a big green egg to tend to now.
​​​​​

angrysmileyface

Id suggest just finding someone who's already done a swap and has a running motor hanging out there and performing required maintanence on it. (This is what I did. I went with an F23A off FB marketplace to replace the F22B1 out of my 95) or setting up the motor and conducting a leakdown test on each of the cylinders and determining course of action from there.

Taylor Woollen

So, I'm not really picking up what you're putting down here. I get checking out a swap that's been done in person, makes sense. Where you lose me is hanging out there and performing required maintenance on it. I don't know if you're saying buy the motor that someone pulled from their car, or perform maintenance on theirs lol.

Regardless, I'm open to checking out something if anyone is in my area, or potentially buying parts. The motor is fine, it just had a tired belt that let go and took the sensor with it. Does it need gaskets and seals, sure, but that was expected. If I can find a vtec b1 in my local JY, I might get the head, intake, vtec goodies, and ecu. If one isn't there, or in a yard close to me, when I go this week I'll probably just take my head to the machine shop.

This is 97 commuter car that gets 100 miles/day. Would I like to add a little hp and spunk while I have it torn down this far, sure, but I'm not going to be throwing $2k plus into a $650 car to do an H22 or any other swap. I can get F22b1 goodies for fairly cheap, and do it relatively quickly, which is why that's on the table.

Northernlightz

Take in to account that underneath will need attention as well. 99.9% of the time when you dig into a 90’s Honda, you will find more issues. 20+ year old rubber tire is still +20 year old rubber regardless of climate and care. Good luck.

angrysmileyface

By maintenance, it's just making sure the belt pump and other gaskets are taken care of before you swap your replacement motor in. I mean who wants to repeat timing belt failure. Extra insurance fwiw

Taylor Woollen

Much appreciated, the random odds and ends are definitely going to get some attention while I'm at it, which was expected for an old, high mileage, low price car. Things like sway bar end links, axle shaft probably needs help, struts, passenger side motor/trans mount, power steering and alt belts, plug wires.

It looked like several of the hoses were replaced at some point, but there's a few that are going to need replacing. The one big ticket item that I don't have to deal with is tires, which was a plus.

I'm pretty much going through it now to replace and fix anything and everything that was neglected by the previous owner. That way I know I'm working with a clean(er) canvas and have more peace of mind. Driving ~2k miles/month, to me, it's worth the time and money to do it all now since I already have it stripped down this much.

Taylor Woollen

Yeah I'm not talking about swapping in a while motor at this point. I was talking more of head and up swap. Potentially throwing in the F22b1 vtec goodies. I have no intention of getting a motor for the exact reason you mentioned. I know mine was running fine, and barring any catastrophic bottom end failure (knock on wood), the top end will have new gaskets and seals regardless of which head goes on.

Oil pan gasket is also getting replaced, so I'll be able to take a look while the pan is down for any significant issues.

Taylor Woollen

So, technically it's my anniversary so I could only sneak out for a few before my wife caught me and I had to knock out some of the honey-do list.

I managed to get the head pulled, so, those of you who've been down this road several times and have more Honda experience than I do: do you see any glaring issues? I can clean up the residual oil and coolant that didn't drain. As far as head gasket, to me it looks like it's in decent shape, so I'm thinking it was changed somewhere in the 212k.

I was reading up on ghostAccord's old thread where he ported his heads, I'm sure there's several more similar threads, that's just the one I stumbled on. I've also seen a few powernation/powerblock episodes where they do it, but I haven't tried it personally. It seems like an undertaking that could be beneficial for the potential gains, with minimal investment, but also could easily wreck the head.

So for those who have done it, how did you prevent yourself from digging in too much? Is it as simple as marking the gasket locations, and trimming some of the extra metal off? I'm sure that sounds simplified, but that's really what I'm gathering.


Head removed
Head/gasket.

Taylor Woollen

Yesterday I moved my compressor up from the barn to the garage. I will proobably will end up moving it into the basement and running air lines to the garage so I don't have to hear it. No matter where it is, having air again is going to definitely move things along.

The local JY just got a couple OBD2 vtecs both F22b1 and f23a1 in, so I was planning to go tomorrow to pull the vtec head whatever else I need.

In an unexpected turn off events my wife started asking about pricing and whether or not I could find a reasonably affordable donor rather than spending a day off away from her and my kids. It turns out, she may, from time-to-time enjoy me being around rather than scavenging parts from the local yards.

Now that the situation may have taken a turn for a full swap. Obviously still will need to find an ecu and potentially pull the to off the replace gaskets and whatnot which will be loads easier while it's out of the car. BUT I have to decide on the f22b1 it the f23a1. I've been attempting to go my homework between work, kids, wife, and sleep. From what I've gathered the heads of the two are essentially them same, but the 23a1 intake has better flow. So there are people switching the 23a1 intakes onto 22b1s. They have relatively similar cam profiles, I know I read about exhaust side but honestly I can't remember.

One thing I can look up later tonight, but don't have time right now (because I bribed the kids with sonic, and the wife with driving around) is whether they're both sleeved, and if the bottom end of them have comparable/negligible differences to think about when weighing pros and cons.

I'm going to be getting one tomorrow or Saturday.

candidate#1

99stockcivic

So what is your goal? My thoughts are to drive towards that. If you just want to keep it simple, I would replace with the same engine and call it a day. It won't take long, there are lots of engines available, JDM or junkyard. Then there is no need to mess with ECU and other items, just clean it up, replace gaskets that seem to need it, you are good for a long time.

Taylor Woollen

The goal is to just have something a little more peppy. Driving 45 miles each way in my commute I still want dependability and fuel efficiency, but want to be able to, let's say merge efficiently.

I picked up a full f23a1 and a 5 asked this morning. Wiring and ecu swap aren't really too difficult. Plus I'll have spares that I can start building something with more power of I end up feeling like it.



as far as numbers, I don't really have a set goal. For broncos there's a tune up that's upgraded cap and rotor, plug wires, cool, headers, intake, and a small bump in the timing. I'm assuming doing a similar set up on this motor can help get the fire burning a little better. I saw ghost post something about swapping to an accel coil, and seeing some throttle response. That makes me think even if it's not a drastic improvement, it's still a benefit, plus getting new parts in will just help with the efficiency portion.

Taylor Woollen

When swapping ECUs, specifically from 98-02 into a 97, is anti theft ever an issue? Or are they just plug and play? From my reading it seemed like the ecu could swap with minimal issues.

Taylor Woollen

Got the harness, radiator, and other goodies out of the way this evening. I was hoping to have the engine and trans out already, but had something pull me away for a couple hours.

I'm thinking after I pull it I'm going till the car out so I can pressure wash the bay, and treat since of my rust spots. Nothing crazy, but figured if I'm sorry this far down the hole, I might as well make this job worth it. Here's some pictures of today's progress.

Taylor Woollen

Got out this morning before having time. Old engine has out!

Tube to clean up the bay in the next day or two. The new engine looks like it only has pull coming from the distributor, but I'm thinking I'm still going to tear it down and replace gaskets and seals, tinting belt, and waterpump.

Taylor Woollen

I'm at the local junkyard, and there's a 5 speed f23a4, will that ECU work for my f23a1? Trying to get it before the yard closes, didn't realize this car was an a4.

Taylor Woollen

So I went ahead and pulled the computer, harness that connects to and goes through the firewall, as well as the fuse/relay box with it's wires that connect into the bottom from the engine bay. I didn't have time to do my googling before the yard closed so I figured I'd make a gamble and hope it would work. I'll do some googling when I get home, but if someone can tell me off The top of their head if it'll work with my f23a1 I'd appreciate it.

Edit: I see the a4 has a different exhaust manifold and more emissions control, but the main question I have is whether or not my a1 will work with the a4 ecu? Even if it did throw a code, will it run and drive? I've seen some yes and done no answers, so I'm hoping someone with experience can shed some light on the topic for me.

Taylor Woollen

So I found another 5 speed ecu that was in an f23a1 at a different yard and got it today sn: 37820-PAA-L11. I really didn't want to go through this whole swap to have a check engine light for something this easy to fix. I'll just take back the a4 ecu tomorrow and get my money back for it.

For the immobilizer, can I take the ecu and keys to get them paired or do I need to have the whole car up? Obviously I can call the dealership but I'm hoping someone has first have knowledge that can save me 30 minutes of being in hold.

99stockcivic

For the immobilizer you can either install a bypass chip and never worry again:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13352522381...QAAOSwqMxfaEan

OR you can get a tool like the CK-100 and reprogram your keys yourself.

Done both and either works fine.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/15376022036...Cclp%3A2334524

Taylor Woollen

Awesome, I appreciate it, I'll have to read up on the chip and how to use it. CK looks like it's too far out of the budget.

Taylor Woollen

Finally started digging into the f23a1. Really excited with how clean it is, definitely going to be doing timing and balance shaft belts. Need opinions on whether or not it's worth doing water pump and am the seals that come in most of the Amazon kits. I have to imagine it is since everything is so accessible right now and I can get them for under $150.

Also in pictures is A1 engine harness, ecu to firewall harness I got yesterday, new ecu for A1, fuse box off the A4 car (looked identical to A1), and the HF earthquake with the oversized 19 for the cam bolt. I have a 60 gallon compressor, that plus the gun/socket combo, can bolt was out in literally 4 seconds. Really impressed.

If there are people watching this build from the shadows with thoughts, recommendations, questions, etc. Feel free to message me or reply. This is my first time actually documenting anything I've done on a forum, and not going to lie, I kind of enjoy cataloging it somewhere. More updates to follow, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Northernlightz

Engine looks pretty decent, good to see you’re making progress. You might as well replace the water pump and seals while you have access.

Taylor Woollen

So now that I have more pulled off, these belts look pretty new to me. Is there any way to determine if the previous owner had it done in the not so distant past?

The car had 142k miles on it, the shop would but repo cars and part them out. Typically, if one can't make payments, they don't do routine maintenance. This engine had great fluids, looks clean and cared for. I didn't see any writing that would tell me mileage of a belt/water pump job, but I'm not buying it's this clean after 142k.



balance shaft belt

Timing belt
Some sign of corrosion behind WP gear

Small amount of oil at the bottom of... Oil pump? gear.


Hard to tell if that's from the belts slinging junk, that's my guess, it seems too dry to be oil.


tensioner bearings feel great. 6006PPIZ. On the bearing. Going to have to look that up.

Front balance shaft seal looks that most worn. Definitely showing signs of leaking in the future.

Is something like this worth it? Cheapest I've found, but don't want stuff creeping out on me in two months.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Timing-Belt....m46890.l49286
This is another option I was looking into.
Of course OEM honda is going to be the best, but it's also outrageously priced. I've got mouths to feed, so I'm trying to find the best bang for my buck.

Northernlightz

From what I’ve seen in car reports is that the only documented work is from the dealer. I highly doubt a private shop would use a Honda timing belt kit, so it’s likely that it was changed at the dealer years ago.

You definitely don’t want to cheap on out on something as crucial as a timing belt. That link you posted is dime a dozen crap that won’t last.

You want something like this. Seals can always be ordered separately.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/124095278213...QAAOSwckFfpPox

99stockcivic

AISIN kit as listed above is exactly what I used as well.

Taylor Woollen

Thanks guys, best I can tell this is the exact same kit as what you're recommending. Let me know if you notice any difference.