kTrain89

I have owned a 5th gen. Prelude for about 6 months now. When I bought the car, the previous owner had just put 4 new tires on it. After driving around for awhile, it felt like the car was pulling to the right, so I took it into a local reputable alignment shop.

After paying my $50 bill, I was a little upset to see the alignment sheet - the "before" and "after" numbers were literally exactly the same...and all in the green. Even though $50 for a 4-wheel alignment is cheap, I felt like I had just wasted the money. Nonetheless, I was content knowing that my alignment was good and uneven roads must be the cause of the "pulling" I was experiencing.

Then I find myself putting a new front lip on my car the other day, and I notice that the front right/passenger tire is worn REALLY bad on the inside. I checked the other 3 tires and they were all fine. But the front right was literally almost vertical around the inner edge of it.

So what could this be, if not an alignment issue?


Alignment Story: the shop I took it to was very reputable. I had called and asked about having an alignment done before I went in, and they said their alignment guy was very sick and had gone to the hospital straight from work. I called back a few days later, and their guy was still out, but they had some Joe Schmo "fill in" for him and do alignments...who was there when I brought my car in. Is it possible that this guy created a "fake" alignment sheet? And showed that my car was in alignment when it really wasn't? Should I go back to the shop and bring this to their attention?

rickyracer

is the car stock height? might need to check the camber.

Dioxine

The camber should have been adjusted with the alignment. Ive seen wheel bearings cause this to happen (very strange i know). Most shops guarantee there work so it would be worth a shot to take it back. Maybe you hit something and knocked it out of alignment.

TunerN00b

Toe causes much more inner tire wear than camber for cars driven normally.

However, burn outs and hard braking with negative camber also causes the same uneven wear.

Worn bushings and/or tie rod ends can also cause it.

Post a scan of the alignment sheet.

92civiceg9gsr

Bad/worn bushings would be my first suspect. Worn tie rods and/or ball joints tend to cause a "shimmy" at freeway speeds. Post an alignment sheet so we will have a better idea of what your "good" alignment is.

kTrain89

Car is at stock height...no suspension modifications whatsoever. I have never done any burn outs or anything like that, either. I did suspect/know that toe would cause this, but like I said in the OP everything, including toe on my alignment sheet is in green (I believe that for this particular tire the toe was .06 or something like that).

I will try to scan the numbers as soon as I get a chance. Thanks for the replies thus far!

kTrain89

What is the possibility of this^

Dioxine

Its very unlikely but i guess it might be possible. I would go back and tell them that your tires are still wearing. If your tie rods were bad then they wouldnt have been able to align it correctly and they should have told you. If this guy just didnt care he might have just set it in the green then the second you take it off the lift its gonna be out of alignment again.

pogeeboy27

iTrader: (3)

I recently had this problem with my Civic. The tech that performed the alignment said that although my numbers were within spec, the front right had slight positive camber and the front left had slight negative camber. Therefore, my tires were\ \. That alone was enough to cause my car to pull to the left and therefore cause inner tire wear similar to what you described. I installed a camber kit, got it realigned, and now the car runs straight.

kTrain89

Are you on stock suspension though? I just find it hard to believe that I would need a camber kit with a completely stock suspension...

Dioxine

No you shouldn't.

pogeeboy27

iTrader: (3)

Yup stock suspension at stock height. I've owned the car for 6 years and it has never been lowered. The only suspension parts that were changed were dampers and bushings. It's just an old high mileage car driven on crappy roads. Oh well.

kTrain89

FRONT LEFT
CAMBER: Actual 0.1, Before 0.1 (Specified Range -1.0 to 1.0)
CASTER: Actual 3.4, Before 3.4 (Specified Range 1.7 to 3.7)
TOE: Actual 0.03, Before -0.02 (Specified Range -0.08 to 0.08)
SAI: Actual 13.7, Before 13.7
INCLUDED ANGLE: Actual 13.8, Before 13.8

FRONT RIGHT
CAMBER: Actual -1.0, Before -1.0 (Specified Range -1.0 to 1.0)
CASTER: Actual 3.0, Before 3.0 (Specified Range 1.7 to 3.7)
TOE: Actual 0.04, Before -0.06 (Specified Range -0.08 to 0.08)
SAI: Actual 8.3, Before 8.3
INCLUDED ANGLE: Actual 7.4, Before 7.4

FRONT
CROSS CAMBER: Actual 1.1, Before 1.1
CROSS CASTER: Actual 0.4, Before 0.4
CROSS SAI: Actual 5.3, Before 5.3
TOTAL TOE: Actual 0.08, Before -0.08 (Specified Range -0.16 to 0.16)


REAR LEFT
CAMBER: Actual -0.7, Before -0.7 (Specified Range -1.8 to 0.3)
TOE: Actual 0.09, Before 0.10 (Specified Range 0.00 to 0.16)

REAR RIGHT
CAMBER: Actual -0.9, Before -0.9 (Specified Range -1.8 to 0.3)
TOE: Actual 0.08, Before 0.08 (Specified Range 0.00 to 0.16)

REAR
CROSS CAMBER: Actual 0.2, Before 0.2
TOTAL TOE: Actual 0.17, Before 0.18 (Specified Range 0.00 to 0.31)
THRUST ANGLE: Actual 0.00, Before 0.01
AXEL OFFSET: Actual 0.0in, Before 0.0in

kTrain89

Went back to the shop today:

The tech looked at my alignment sheet and said everything was perfect. Then he walked out to the car with me to look at the tire, and noticed I had 3 Fuzion tires and 1 Nitto Neo Gen (the Neo Gen was on the driver's front). He said THAT was causing the problem...compared it to "wearing one Nike shoe and one Addidas shoe. you will feel weird and not walk right." He said since the Neo Gen on the left had such a different tread than the Fuzion on the right, it was causing it to pull and rotate unevenly.

I then asked him why he didn't bring that to my attention when he aligned my car, since he was so certain it causes problems. He had no answer, but rotated my tires for free (fronts to the back). Hopefully my problems are solved...even though I now have a bald, unevenly worn rear tire.

thehoustonian

I know from experience that toe in(+) and negative camber can cause significant tire wear in only a few hundred miles.

Before the alignment did they check your tire pressure and make sure the tires were even and properly inflated. Not doing so can have extreme impacts on the quality and accuracy of the alignment. A vehicle with the wrong tire pressure will pull towards the less inflated tire. The incorrect tire pressure can also cause the vehicle to lean or otherwise give incorrect measurements. Also the parking brake left engaged can make some adjustments slightly off, the manual mentions disengaging the e-brake prior to adjusting alignment. Also if your car is ATTS equipped or not may make a small difference as to pulling after the alignment, ATTS vehicles need to have a sensor or plug jumped to disable the ATTS until after the alignment.

From your alignment specs they seemed to have added a lot more toe in on the front, a definite change from your "before" numbers, a change of .05 on drivers front and .1 the front passenger. The fact that you have -1* of camber in the front right explains why you have wear on that wheel more than the others. The camber alone probably would not make a significant difference in wear but coupled with the toe in(+) on the front right is most likely contributing to the problem. Another thing to consider is the difference in your SAI & Included angle numbers and how they might play into all of this. SAI and Included angle numbers are a good indicator of a damaged or misaligned part.

"Additionally the vehicle's toe is one of the most critical alignment settings relative to tire wear. A toe setting that is just a little off its appropriate setting can make a huge difference in their wear. Consider that if the toe setting is just 1/16-inch off of its appropriate setting, each tire on that axle will scrub almost seven feet sideways every mile! Extend it out and you'll discover that rather than running parallel to each other, the front tires will scrub over 1/4-mile sideways during every 100 miles of driving! Incorrect toe will rob you of tire life"

Source-Toe
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=4


"PURPOSE:
Directional Control Stability. • Steering Wheel Returnability. • Vehicle Load Placement.
S.A.I., I.A. and Camber can be used to locate areas of the strut system on unibodies which may have damaged or misaligned parts. I.A. (Included Angle) is used to determine if there is a damaged spindle or strut tube. The S.A.I. (Steering Axis Inclination) is used to determine if the unibody is misaligned."

Source- SAI significance
http://allentireco.com/info/alignment.php

"Checking and comparing SAI readings side-to-side is a good way to identify "hidden" problems such as those just described. Even though we tend to think of it as a nonadjustable angle that is built into the suspension itself, it is still a useful angle to look at (even if specs are not available) because it can reveal conditions or damage that affect a vehicle's ability to steer straight. On front-wheel drive cars where the lower control arms are attached to the engine cradle, a shift in the cradle's position to either side will upset SAI as well as camber. The result will be a steering lead towards the side with the least SAI. Ideally, right and left SAI readings should be within half a degree of one another."

http://www.aa1car.com/library/tr295.htm

Also the more I read about alignments, the vehicle will tend to pull towards the side of the car with the lower amount of (+) caster. (your passenger front). Also in regards to the tires being mismatched, the vehicle will pull towards the side that offers the greatest rolling resistance. Check the tread pattern, size, width. Also a worn tire will increase roll towards the part of the tire that is worn, alot like the effect of camber.

another source, this one mentioning mismatched tires.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/steerpul.htm

The second link I provided about the SAI also has solutions to alignment problems and vehicle pull. Just because the vehicle is within spec doesn't mean the alignment is correct, especially if there was a problem before and a problem after. A vehicle alignment should correct the problems not just set to a set value unless the problem is fixed within the standard. That being said probably wont get anywhere asking for a fix with the difference in tire make/model that does seem to be your only weakness in an argument for a new alignment. Also shops may argue that somethings broken or bent, which you may want to look into but the tiny amount a part has to be bent or tweaked is too small to see by eye and no sense of buying and replacing random parts.


Sorry for the uber long reply but the links provided can give you a solid understanding of vehicle alignment and the effect the different factors have. Read up see what you can fix and then possibly go by the shop and see what they say about not just getting the car in spec but getting the numbers as even as they can side to side. Camber is non adjustable but caster you can adjust, i doubt that the shop will for the $50 you paid tho.

Stock Prelude manual can be found on
http://www.hondahookup.com/manuals/

The section involving suspension and alignments is section 18 4-7
http://www.hondahookup.com/manuals/?file=p5c16-18.zip