Front end alignment and lowering - camber and tire wear, etc.
05-21-2007, 10:10 PM
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Front end alignment and lowering - camber and tire wear, etc.
So here's the deal...I lowered my car and never got a camber kit or alignment after I did it. I went through a set of 225/40/18 tires and two sets of stock 195/65/15's. I was told by a member here that the camber isn't what wears the tire down, it's the toe that needs to be aligned.
My problem is that the drivers side (and eventually the passenger side) will wear down on the inside down to the steel and thread and all the way towards the middle of the tire, to the outside will be bald as hell.
I'm getting a new set of tires for my rims (225/40/18) and then a 3-way alignment on Wednesday morning, which consists of camber, caster, and toe. I know the camber will probably not be corrected all the way and I might need a camber kit. But my question is - when I get my front end aligned, will most of the premature wear be taken care of? Because I really don't want to pay $250 for new tires and then $70 for an alignment when it won't help at all.
Also, will camber wear the tire down to the thread like my tires are doing now? I have negative camber on my rear tires and have been driving with them for about a year and there is no premature wear on them whatsoever. The tires are perfectly fine. So what's the deal here??
My problem is that the drivers side (and eventually the passenger side) will wear down on the inside down to the steel and thread and all the way towards the middle of the tire, to the outside will be bald as hell.
I'm getting a new set of tires for my rims (225/40/18) and then a 3-way alignment on Wednesday morning, which consists of camber, caster, and toe. I know the camber will probably not be corrected all the way and I might need a camber kit. But my question is - when I get my front end aligned, will most of the premature wear be taken care of? Because I really don't want to pay $250 for new tires and then $70 for an alignment when it won't help at all.
Also, will camber wear the tire down to the thread like my tires are doing now? I have negative camber on my rear tires and have been driving with them for about a year and there is no premature wear on them whatsoever. The tires are perfectly fine. So what's the deal here??
05-21-2007, 11:48 PM
#2
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yes, toe does wear the tires. so you dropped your ride with new tires and never got a alignment??? theres alot of debate on just going with the toe set or going with a camber kit, but its really up to you. I myself felt that i didn't want to find out if setting the toe back to zero would solve the tire wear problem. All i know is i threw on a front skunk2 camber kit and i've seen no wear what so ever for the last 2 years/40k. I'm dropped a little lower than 2inchs all around...
There has been many people who's gotten alignments and the end result is buying brand new tires anywhere from 2 weeks-2 months later.
There has been many people who's gotten alignments and the end result is buying brand new tires anywhere from 2 weeks-2 months later.
05-22-2007, 12:22 AM
#3
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Re: (bmoua)
you wont need a camber kit. just get an alignment to set the toe.
the only "debate" of camber and toe tire wear is between those who understand tires and suspension and those who dont.
negative camber isnt a significant factor in tire wear. despite the seemingly obvious connection. tires wear by the amount of slip the rubber goes through as it transitions to and from contact with the pavement as it rolls. an incorrect toe setting will cause the tire to slip more, like the car was constantly turning as the tire shifts in direction between ground contact and back. an extreme example of tire slip in the fore-aft direction is doing a burnout. the effects of tire slip to tire wear is easy to comprehend. the same thing goes on in the lateral direction when the tire is forced to "turn" or twist at every revolution.
severe camber will not affect the tire slip nearly as much as it simply is flattening out in the normal direction a tire is designed to compress with no more tire slip than a regularly rolling tire. perhaps more on one side than the other. but consider also that the sidewalls flex and for most allowable camber angles still produce a contact patch full across the tread. even then, consider that a regular tire should last 30-60 thousand miles, especially if just rolling straight.
hondas in particular those with double wishbone suspension specifically control camber angles better than other cars and is also the reason why camber really isnt in need of "correction". in fact, negative camber is a good thing and to take away from it would take away from the great handling already designed in the suspension.
when a car is lowered, the ride height changes. when the ride height changes, the camber changes. when the camber changes, the toe changes. (it doesnt work in reverse) this is designed in the double wishbone suspension for better handling in the corners as the outside tire is loaded. therefore, when the ride height changes, the toe changes. and so the toe should be fixed.
for those who just put camber kits on after lowering, and then adjust them back to positive, also adjusted the toe back. so as a result, benefited in tire wear because the toe was changed closer to where it was previously. not because the camber was changed. even with a camber kit, a full alignment is still recommended, as theres no way to really to know where the camber or alignment really is. and its nonetheless important.
the only exception to the benefit of reducing negative camber is for those interested in maximizing straight line grip, as in drag racing. then you want as straight of a contact patch as possible, or something.
the only "debate" of camber and toe tire wear is between those who understand tires and suspension and those who dont.
negative camber isnt a significant factor in tire wear. despite the seemingly obvious connection. tires wear by the amount of slip the rubber goes through as it transitions to and from contact with the pavement as it rolls. an incorrect toe setting will cause the tire to slip more, like the car was constantly turning as the tire shifts in direction between ground contact and back. an extreme example of tire slip in the fore-aft direction is doing a burnout. the effects of tire slip to tire wear is easy to comprehend. the same thing goes on in the lateral direction when the tire is forced to "turn" or twist at every revolution.
severe camber will not affect the tire slip nearly as much as it simply is flattening out in the normal direction a tire is designed to compress with no more tire slip than a regularly rolling tire. perhaps more on one side than the other. but consider also that the sidewalls flex and for most allowable camber angles still produce a contact patch full across the tread. even then, consider that a regular tire should last 30-60 thousand miles, especially if just rolling straight.
hondas in particular those with double wishbone suspension specifically control camber angles better than other cars and is also the reason why camber really isnt in need of "correction". in fact, negative camber is a good thing and to take away from it would take away from the great handling already designed in the suspension.
when a car is lowered, the ride height changes. when the ride height changes, the camber changes. when the camber changes, the toe changes. (it doesnt work in reverse) this is designed in the double wishbone suspension for better handling in the corners as the outside tire is loaded. therefore, when the ride height changes, the toe changes. and so the toe should be fixed.
for those who just put camber kits on after lowering, and then adjust them back to positive, also adjusted the toe back. so as a result, benefited in tire wear because the toe was changed closer to where it was previously. not because the camber was changed. even with a camber kit, a full alignment is still recommended, as theres no way to really to know where the camber or alignment really is. and its nonetheless important.
the only exception to the benefit of reducing negative camber is for those interested in maximizing straight line grip, as in drag racing. then you want as straight of a contact patch as possible, or something.
05-22-2007, 08:51 AM
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Re: (Tyson)
Thanks Tyson...that helped out a lot. I'm going to get the alignment tomorrow - I know they can't set the camber back to 0, but it'll definately be corrected to some degree. The toe will definately be fixed.
Bmoua - I never got it aligned...I was meaning to but kept putting it off. I had my stock tires, so once I burned through the 18's, I slapped a pair of stocks on....then the other pair. But after tomorrow, all should be well. I was thinking of also getting a camber kit, but I don't mind being negative a bit. I don't go to the track or anything...just a bit of fun on the street every now and then, so it's all good.
Bmoua - I never got it aligned...I was meaning to but kept putting it off. I had my stock tires, so once I burned through the 18's, I slapped a pair of stocks on....then the other pair. But after tomorrow, all should be well. I was thinking of also getting a camber kit, but I don't mind being negative a bit. I don't go to the track or anything...just a bit of fun on the street every now and then, so it's all good.
05-22-2007, 01:10 PM
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Re: (98savage)
I just had the tires for my 18's mounted and balanced today and on the passengers side, when I turn my wheel to the right, the back end of the tire will rub on the wheel well. I know it's caused by set back - you can see it if you look at the tire when it's straight....the tire is pushed a bit farther back when it's supposed to be in the middle with an equal amount of space on the front and rear. I'm getting my front end aligned tomorrow....will this be corrected by a toe adjustment, or is there something bent or....what actually causes set back to occur out of the blue like this???
05-22-2007, 01:12 PM
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Re: (98savage)
your caster is out of spec.
what car are you even talking about? caster is usually not adjustable.
running into curbs its a likely way to affect your caster.
what car are you even talking about? caster is usually not adjustable.
running into curbs its a likely way to affect your caster.
05-22-2007, 01:20 PM
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Re: (Tyson)
It's on my 98 Accord EX sedan. I was told by the shop that is going to do my alignment that they are going to do a 3 way which would consist of camber, caster, and toe. I don't see how it would be normal with stock tires on, and then all of a sudden scrape with the 18's on. The size of the rim/tire combo on both of them are exactly the same.
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05-22-2007, 01:23 PM
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Re: (98savage)
goin from 15's to 18's, youre changing A LOT of variables.
no way is your outer diameter tire size the same. and no way is your wheel width the same either compared to stock. yet alone offset.
its like ppl who lower their cars and only then notice that one side is leaned over more than the other. it was uneven at stock height, the gap was just so big you didnt notice the difference before.
your car is almost a decade old. the suspension and frame has taken abuse. no surprise things are not perfect. your car wasnt even designed to accomodate 18's. youre shoe horning them in the wheel wells. im not surprised one edge is rubbing at extreme turning angles.
no way is your outer diameter tire size the same. and no way is your wheel width the same either compared to stock. yet alone offset.
its like ppl who lower their cars and only then notice that one side is leaned over more than the other. it was uneven at stock height, the gap was just so big you didnt notice the difference before.
your car is almost a decade old. the suspension and frame has taken abuse. no surprise things are not perfect. your car wasnt even designed to accomodate 18's. youre shoe horning them in the wheel wells. im not surprised one edge is rubbing at extreme turning angles.
05-22-2007, 01:30 PM
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Re: (Tyson)
But my point is, it didn't do that before. When I first put 18's on it, it was fine...when I lowered it about a year ago, it was fine. It was fine until I went through the 18's...it was fine when I put the stocks on. Now I'm back to 18's and it's screwed up. It's the caster? Well how could that be off all of a sudden....
05-31-2007, 01:27 PM
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What 98Savage describes sounds just like a curb hit. I hit a curb last snow fall and bent my wheel. The Honda dealer said I only needed a new wheel and tire. I got a new wheel from the wrecking yard and the tire was fine. Everything seemed fine - except every now and then I thought maybe it was pulling to the side. I finally had it checked by a tire dealer and they said one of the control arms was bent. I went out and looked at it and sure enough, the gap in front of the tire was about three times the gap at the back.
05-31-2007, 01:29 PM
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BTW, thanks Tyson for the full explanation of camber issues. I just got off the phone w/a shop about installing my new springs/shocks and they were telling me I needed camber kits. I'll do without and get the alignment. The alignment shop should just set the camber as close to zero as possible, right?
05-31-2007, 01:31 PM
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Re: (Kincaid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kincaid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW, thanks Tyson for the full explanation of camber issues. I just got off the phone w/a shop about installing my new springs/shocks and they were telling me I needed camber kits. I'll do without and get the alignment. The alignment shop should just set the camber as close to zero as possible, right?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Unless this is a pure drag car, never zero out the camber. The car came with a little over -1* from the factory, after all...
Unless this is a pure drag car, never zero out the camber. The car came with a little over -1* from the factory, after all...
05-31-2007, 01:43 PM
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Good to know - with a 1.5" drop from lowering springs they'll just have to set the camber as close to stock as possible? I'm assuming that they can't get it to stock camber because the vehicle was lowered.
05-31-2007, 02:33 PM
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Re: (Kincaid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kincaid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good to know - with a 1.5" drop from lowering springs they'll just have to set the camber as close to stock as possible? I'm assuming that they can't get it to stock camber because the vehicle was lowered.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Without a camber kit, the shop won't set camber at all. Camber is not adjustable on our cars and is purely determined by your ride height. It's no big deal though. I run no camber kits on my 2.5" lowered 94 civic. I have no tire wear issues and have -2.5* camber front and -1.5* camber rear. The car drives superb.
PS: Camber usually won't be even from left to right, so don't be surprised if yours isn't. As long as the car doesn't pull to one side, it will be fine...
Without a camber kit, the shop won't set camber at all. Camber is not adjustable on our cars and is purely determined by your ride height. It's no big deal though. I run no camber kits on my 2.5" lowered 94 civic. I have no tire wear issues and have -2.5* camber front and -1.5* camber rear. The car drives superb.
PS: Camber usually won't be even from left to right, so don't be surprised if yours isn't. As long as the car doesn't pull to one side, it will be fine...
06-01-2007, 06:09 PM
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Re: (94eg!)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Without a camber kit, the shop won't set camber at all. Camber is not adjustable on our cars and is purely determined by your ride height. It's no big deal though. I run no camber kits on my 2.5" lowered 94 civic. I have no tire wear issues and have -2.5* camber front and -1.5* camber rear. The car drives superb.
PS: Camber usually won't be even from left to right, so don't be surprised if yours isn't. As long as the car doesn't pull to one side, it will be fine...</TD></TR></TABLE>
yea just save youreself a headache and spend 300 on camber kits all around... remember this is your suspension and you shouldnt be cheap.
Without a camber kit, the shop won't set camber at all. Camber is not adjustable on our cars and is purely determined by your ride height. It's no big deal though. I run no camber kits on my 2.5" lowered 94 civic. I have no tire wear issues and have -2.5* camber front and -1.5* camber rear. The car drives superb.
PS: Camber usually won't be even from left to right, so don't be surprised if yours isn't. As long as the car doesn't pull to one side, it will be fine...</TD></TR></TABLE>
yea just save youreself a headache and spend 300 on camber kits all around... remember this is your suspension and you shouldnt be cheap.
06-03-2007, 12:57 AM
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Re: (akunamatta)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by akunamatta »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
yea just save youreself a headache and spend 300 on camber kits all around... remember this is your suspension and you shouldnt be cheap.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Something tells me you completely missed his point.........
yea just save youreself a headache and spend 300 on camber kits all around... remember this is your suspension and you shouldnt be cheap.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Something tells me you completely missed his point.........
10-25-2008, 04:24 PM
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Re: (98savage)
Tyson you seem to know what ur talking about and I have a similar problem to 98savage.
I have a 94' Prelude 2.2 Jap Spec and my rear passenger wheel looks as if it has been pushed back towards the bumper. I also think that its my castor that's out of spec and the situation that caused this was because my friend rode the left hand side onto a curb. I was fortunate that no damage resulted in any of the suspension components on the front passenger side but obviously there is some sort of damage to the rear.
Is the rear castor adjustable? Also, i am looking to overhaul the suspension components in the rear and would like to know what parts I need to get such as (suspension arms, control arms, traction arms, polyurethene bushes, etc.,.) and are there any parts that improve upon stock because I think I saw some skunk2 parts advertised somewhere for my spec prelude. I'm not gonna bother with camber kits as the car is running fine without.
Your help is much appreciated.
I have a 94' Prelude 2.2 Jap Spec and my rear passenger wheel looks as if it has been pushed back towards the bumper. I also think that its my castor that's out of spec and the situation that caused this was because my friend rode the left hand side onto a curb. I was fortunate that no damage resulted in any of the suspension components on the front passenger side but obviously there is some sort of damage to the rear.
Is the rear castor adjustable? Also, i am looking to overhaul the suspension components in the rear and would like to know what parts I need to get such as (suspension arms, control arms, traction arms, polyurethene bushes, etc.,.) and are there any parts that improve upon stock because I think I saw some skunk2 parts advertised somewhere for my spec prelude. I'm not gonna bother with camber kits as the car is running fine without.
Your help is much appreciated.
10-25-2008, 04:36 PM
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Re: (Kincaid)
That's exactly my symptoms also. So am i right in thinking that if it isn't the castor that's out of spec then the control arm must be bent.
I've had a look for control arms but have been left confused as to what it what. I've seen a A shaped one and also a straight bar but both advertised as control arms. Do I have two of these (one of each type) per corner? And also, do the shocks and springs need to be taken off to change these parts?
I've had a look for control arms but have been left confused as to what it what. I've seen a A shaped one and also a straight bar but both advertised as control arms. Do I have two of these (one of each type) per corner? And also, do the shocks and springs need to be taken off to change these parts?
10-25-2008, 06:31 PM
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Re: (jhussein1)
JH next time make a new thread instead of posting in an old one. youll need to figure out whats bent in your rear suspension. You can take it to a body shop to have them measure is or even measure it yourself. Just get under there and compare sides to see what is bent. Many Honda FWD have double wishbone in front and trailing arms/control arms in the back. The A shape is a wishbone type arm. The straight one goes in the back. If you jack your car up you can easily see this.
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