RFC: spin out video
08-19-2003, 08:39 AM
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RFC: spin out video
http://www.ghettoracer.com/vid....wmv
5.4 mb video 2:19 mins long.
if the car and the 993 collected, who's fault is it? (no fault? car in front? car in back? debatable or absolute?) that was just a typical open track session. if it was racing, who's fault is it?
5.4 mb video 2:19 mins long.
if the car and the 993 collected, who's fault is it? (no fault? car in front? car in back? debatable or absolute?) that was just a typical open track session. if it was racing, who's fault is it?
08-19-2003, 09:05 AM
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Re: RFC: spin out video (GhettoRacer)
You could argue the car in front would at fault for spinning in the first place (and no excuse for spinning entering 2 at Willow). But in a non-race situation where the proximity to the driver in front means nothing, running into someone could be partially the following driver's fault. Had these two collected I would place blame on both.
The in-car driver looked a bit rough on the wheel. What kind of car? And why did he almost come to a stop after passing the spinning car?
If there were racing I would just say it was a racing incident.
The in-car driver looked a bit rough on the wheel. What kind of car? And why did he almost come to a stop after passing the spinning car?
If there were racing I would just say it was a racing incident.
08-19-2003, 11:07 AM
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It appears to me that the 993 was at fault for not locking up the car, causing the spun car to "wiggle" to the path of the camera car (right at 2:08). At 2:06 when the 993 tail started to wrap around, the driver should have put both feet in until the car came to a dead stop.
But to be fair, there should have been enough time for the camera car to slow down more than it appeared in the vid. He's probably trying to drive right pass the spun car at speed.
But to be fair, there should have been enough time for the camera car to slow down more than it appeared in the vid. He's probably trying to drive right pass the spun car at speed.
08-19-2003, 01:59 PM
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Re: RFC: spin out video (Ponyboy)
I've never driven that track before and I could see the 993 was way off line entering that turn. The camera car should have backed out of it sooner. I've had cars spin out right in front of me in DE situations and had more room than that guy ended up with. I also agree the 993 driver should not have been letting the car roll like that. That's how people run into walls on the inside of turns.\
08-19-2003, 04:46 PM
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Re: RFC: spin out video (Mohudsolo)
No question that the following driver carries no blame for the spin but he/she should have anticipated that the spin would end up on the outside of the corner - just as a matter of statistics. It isn't the first wob that spins a car so if you run away from it (the one to the inside, driver's right in this case) it is going to chase you on the second one.
I don't know why we needed to see an entire lap to get to the incident in question but the camera car driver charged a couple of those apexes a bit much. And one of those right-handers goes on for flippin' ever, don't it?
K
I don't know why we needed to see an entire lap to get to the incident in question but the camera car driver charged a couple of those apexes a bit much. And one of those right-handers goes on for flippin' ever, don't it?
K
08-19-2003, 08:32 PM
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Re: RFC: spin out video (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> And one of those right-handers goes on for flippin' ever, don't it?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
if you're referring to the last right hand sweeper with a kink before the front straight, then yes, yes it does. driven correctly, you're flat out into and all the way through until the kink, and last time i drove it there i glanced down at my speedo to see i was into triple digits. it's easily the fastest i've ever gone with the wheel not straight.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
if you're referring to the last right hand sweeper with a kink before the front straight, then yes, yes it does. driven correctly, you're flat out into and all the way through until the kink, and last time i drove it there i glanced down at my speedo to see i was into triple digits. it's easily the fastest i've ever gone with the wheel not straight.
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08-19-2003, 09:21 PM
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Re: RFC: spin out video (Mohudsolo)
I may be a somewhat newbie to HPDE... but I see no reason why the camera car had to get so close to the spinning porsche... Also whats was flying in the car and what the hect is a radar detector mount doing on the winshield... but I digress.. Watching that video I would have let up long before the driver of the car did, as he closed in very fast on the spinning car, and if the car had spun the other way there probably would have been contact. What was the deal with slowing down so much after the camera car passed the incident, and why did the camera car start to pull of track?
As soon as I saw where that porsche turned in, as he appears to be way ouside of the line, and the angle is front end took going towards the apex I would have let up and tried to get to the inside as I would have though he was going to spin to the outside... but what do I know...
As soon as I saw where that porsche turned in, as he appears to be way ouside of the line, and the angle is front end took going towards the apex I would have let up and tried to get to the inside as I would have though he was going to spin to the outside... but what do I know...
08-20-2003, 06:26 AM
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Re: RFC: spin out video (Solracer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solracer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What was the deal with slowing down so much after the camera car passed the incident, and why did the camera car start to pull of track?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm sure the camera car driver was shock and had to slow way down to settle himself down. As for pulling off track, since he chose to pass the spun car on the outside, and the spun car didn't lock up his brakes and wiggled into the path, his only choice was to swerve off track to avoid contact.
I'm sure the camera car driver was shock and had to slow way down to settle himself down. As for pulling off track, since he chose to pass the spun car on the outside, and the spun car didn't lock up his brakes and wiggled into the path, his only choice was to swerve off track to avoid contact.
08-20-2003, 07:05 AM
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Re: RFC: spin out video (GhettoRacer)
I thought there was a principle that if someone gets into the back of somebody else, even in a race, it's the guy in back that's at fault.. If the guy's spinning, he wouldn't be slowing down as quickly as if he's doing controlled, maximum braking, so spinning or suddenly slowing because of a mechanical failure-- either one, the following car should have been able to keep out of him? (Unless there was something on the track)
I'm only talking theory, not practice, not real life.. I don't have experience with this in real life.
blah..
I'm only talking theory, not practice, not real life.. I don't have experience with this in real life.
blah..
08-20-2003, 07:17 AM
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Re: RFC: spin out video (Wai)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wai »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm sure the camera car driver was shock and had to slow way down to settle himself down. As for pulling off track, since he chose to pass the spun car on the outside, and the spun car didn't lock up his brakes and wiggled into the path, his only choice was to swerve off track to avoid contact.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I doubt Getto was in any kind of shocl at seeing some one spin in front of him I mean he has like thousad of hours of HPDE expereince and nothing suprise's him.... And I was talking about after he passed the incident he drove the car off the the Inside of the track.
I'm sure the camera car driver was shock and had to slow way down to settle himself down. As for pulling off track, since he chose to pass the spun car on the outside, and the spun car didn't lock up his brakes and wiggled into the path, his only choice was to swerve off track to avoid contact.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I doubt Getto was in any kind of shocl at seeing some one spin in front of him I mean he has like thousad of hours of HPDE expereince and nothing suprise's him.... And I was talking about after he passed the incident he drove the car off the the Inside of the track.
08-20-2003, 09:42 AM
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Re: (Wai)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think the camera car was Ghetto? You might be right, I'm not sure if the camera car was him.</TD></TR></TABLE>
actually that is me. i posted this info in a different thread. i'll just copy/paste:
"This video is from oct. 2002.
Some facts about the video:
- Yes I was at the helm. My car was running on bald, heat cycled to death all season tires Falken Ziex ZE502. They're kinda like the Kumho 712's, not a lot of grip to start with even when new and they screams out loud. I was turning mere 1:43 or 44's at WS that day (pretty warm, 90+F). Old 105k miles engine that leaked down at 25%...
- There was no contact, not even close. I was well aware of where the guy was going and I know there was nothing behind me because there was only me, the GT3 Cup (which is in front) and the 993 on track.
- The event was a high end driving school and I was instructing that day. It was near end of the day already with just few of us left.
- The guy that spun is suppose to be an experienced driver from East Coast, I believe that was his first time at WS.
- I slowed down (to near dead stop) to make sure he was ok because the 993 backed up into the hills and was damaged/stuck on the inside banking (could be blind depending on angle when viewed from the entry of T2). We did not have corner workers that day so I wanted to keep my car visible in case someone come up behind us at high speed. On a normal DE day with lots of car running around I would've reacted accordingly.
- It's my daily driver Honda del Sol. What's on the windshield is the holder for ValentineOne. The detector is of course removed. What's flapping around is the camcorder shoulder belt. Camcorder itself was securely latched down.
Don't assume so much guys. I don't owe anybody anything. Some haters have been spreading nasty untruthful facts.
I posted the video to include a full lap for multiple reasons. One was to see how people would react and surely enough some of the comments I expect came out (ie, picking a fight)... oh well. It's pretty hard to get the benefit of doubt in the real world, I've learned. One track incident (the SM incident) in a race environment and now everybody thinks I'm dangerous at DE environement? (after 140+ days of incident free DE days). It's alright... such is life. I guess I'll have to learn to accept that. Another reason was actually the simple fact that I wanted to see what people think of the spin scenerio and who's at fault or not, in race vs. school environment. I did not want it to be a "GR" discussion at all (some of you guys are shifting the focus, keep the GR/Haiku stuff out of it please). Just stick with the simple discussion of what I raised in the original post. Can't you guys do that? Grow up."
"I'm sorry you guys feel that way. I'm just saying you guys could've just ask questions instead of making assumption. Isn't this this a perfect demonstration of predudice at work? Why are you guys acting so hostile and making it so personal? Isn't what I "request for comment" for in the original post simple and clear?
Hopefully I've made a point some what. I will go away now. I'm just using this whole experience to learn about a lot of things (well beyond driving). Sorry I've used you guys..."
end of quotes...
anyway, i hope you guys seen the multiple points i wanted to raise with this this thread. i don't want with fight with anyone. as you can see, everybody view the video and show a wide range of opinion. can you imagine when an incident is merely "described" how wild people's imagination can take it?
actually that is me. i posted this info in a different thread. i'll just copy/paste:
"This video is from oct. 2002.
Some facts about the video:
- Yes I was at the helm. My car was running on bald, heat cycled to death all season tires Falken Ziex ZE502. They're kinda like the Kumho 712's, not a lot of grip to start with even when new and they screams out loud. I was turning mere 1:43 or 44's at WS that day (pretty warm, 90+F). Old 105k miles engine that leaked down at 25%...
- There was no contact, not even close. I was well aware of where the guy was going and I know there was nothing behind me because there was only me, the GT3 Cup (which is in front) and the 993 on track.
- The event was a high end driving school and I was instructing that day. It was near end of the day already with just few of us left.
- The guy that spun is suppose to be an experienced driver from East Coast, I believe that was his first time at WS.
- I slowed down (to near dead stop) to make sure he was ok because the 993 backed up into the hills and was damaged/stuck on the inside banking (could be blind depending on angle when viewed from the entry of T2). We did not have corner workers that day so I wanted to keep my car visible in case someone come up behind us at high speed. On a normal DE day with lots of car running around I would've reacted accordingly.
- It's my daily driver Honda del Sol. What's on the windshield is the holder for ValentineOne. The detector is of course removed. What's flapping around is the camcorder shoulder belt. Camcorder itself was securely latched down.
Don't assume so much guys. I don't owe anybody anything. Some haters have been spreading nasty untruthful facts.
I posted the video to include a full lap for multiple reasons. One was to see how people would react and surely enough some of the comments I expect came out (ie, picking a fight)... oh well. It's pretty hard to get the benefit of doubt in the real world, I've learned. One track incident (the SM incident) in a race environment and now everybody thinks I'm dangerous at DE environement? (after 140+ days of incident free DE days). It's alright... such is life. I guess I'll have to learn to accept that. Another reason was actually the simple fact that I wanted to see what people think of the spin scenerio and who's at fault or not, in race vs. school environment. I did not want it to be a "GR" discussion at all (some of you guys are shifting the focus, keep the GR/Haiku stuff out of it please). Just stick with the simple discussion of what I raised in the original post. Can't you guys do that? Grow up."
"I'm sorry you guys feel that way. I'm just saying you guys could've just ask questions instead of making assumption. Isn't this this a perfect demonstration of predudice at work? Why are you guys acting so hostile and making it so personal? Isn't what I "request for comment" for in the original post simple and clear?
Hopefully I've made a point some what. I will go away now. I'm just using this whole experience to learn about a lot of things (well beyond driving). Sorry I've used you guys..."
end of quotes...
anyway, i hope you guys seen the multiple points i wanted to raise with this this thread. i don't want with fight with anyone. as you can see, everybody view the video and show a wide range of opinion. can you imagine when an incident is merely "described" how wild people's imagination can take it?
08-20-2003, 10:04 AM
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Re: (GhettoRacer)
From the original post...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GhettoRacer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...if the car and the 993 collected, who's fault is it? (no fault? car in front? car in back? debatable or absolute?) that was just a typical open track session. if it was racing, who's fault is it?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Quotes contained within reply to replies to the original post...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GhettoRacer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...I posted the video to include a full lap for multiple reasons...
...Just stick with the simple discussion of what I raised in the original post. Can't you guys do that? Grow up."....
...Isn't what I "request for comment" for in the original post simple and clear?...
...I'm just using this whole experience to learn about a lot of things (well beyond driving). Sorry I've used you guys..."
...anyway, i hope you guys seen the multiple points i wanted to raise with this this thread.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Frank, it seems to me that your first post was simply eliciting comments regarding who, if anyone, was at fault for the situation. Your reply to the replies to the original post seem to imply that there were multiple reasons behind the original post. I may be completely missing something here, but there seems to be a contradiction. If I am missing something here, would you eplain what it is?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GhettoRacer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...if the car and the 993 collected, who's fault is it? (no fault? car in front? car in back? debatable or absolute?) that was just a typical open track session. if it was racing, who's fault is it?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Quotes contained within reply to replies to the original post...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GhettoRacer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...I posted the video to include a full lap for multiple reasons...
...Just stick with the simple discussion of what I raised in the original post. Can't you guys do that? Grow up."....
...Isn't what I "request for comment" for in the original post simple and clear?...
...I'm just using this whole experience to learn about a lot of things (well beyond driving). Sorry I've used you guys..."
...anyway, i hope you guys seen the multiple points i wanted to raise with this this thread.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Frank, it seems to me that your first post was simply eliciting comments regarding who, if anyone, was at fault for the situation. Your reply to the replies to the original post seem to imply that there were multiple reasons behind the original post. I may be completely missing something here, but there seems to be a contradiction. If I am missing something here, would you eplain what it is?
08-20-2003, 10:17 AM
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Re: (wakaru)
Actually he just cut and pasted that from the corner-carvers post where the are once again ripping him a new a-hole. Here is that thread if you would like to read it.
http://corner-carvers.com/foru...11495
I posted my orginal reply before I saw the thread @ corner Carvers. And you have to remeber that with frank there are always multiple reasons behind everything.
http://corner-carvers.com/foru...11495
I posted my orginal reply before I saw the thread @ corner Carvers. And you have to remeber that with frank there are always multiple reasons behind everything.
08-20-2003, 10:19 AM
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Re: (Solracer)
study of human nature is one of them. power of perception... 
i'm just having fun experimenting (possibly at my own expense)...
i'm just having fun experimenting (possibly at my own expense)...
08-20-2003, 10:33 AM
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Frank, it's good to know that you're the driver of the camera car. So that speculation could be kept at the minimum.
Did the 993 wiggle in ur path and u had to swerve off track to avoid him like it appeared in the vid?
Did the 993 wiggle in ur path and u had to swerve off track to avoid him like it appeared in the vid?
08-20-2003, 10:38 AM
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Re: (Solracer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solracer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually he just cut and pasted that from the corner-carvers post where the are once again ripping him a new a-hole. Here is that thread if you would like to read it.
http://corner-carvers.com/foru...11495
I posted my orginal reply before I saw the thread @ corner Carvers. And you have to remeber that with frank there are always multiple reasons behind everything.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ahhh. Ok! I didn't see any prior reference to the thread. It makes sense now. Kind of...
http://corner-carvers.com/foru...11495
I posted my orginal reply before I saw the thread @ corner Carvers. And you have to remeber that with frank there are always multiple reasons behind everything.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ahhh. Ok! I didn't see any prior reference to the thread. It makes sense now. Kind of...
08-20-2003, 10:58 AM
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Re: (wakaru)
ohh it was a lot more to that... i guess you missed the whole open letter fiasco. heheh. don't worry about it. but it's good entertainment if you are bored.
08-20-2003, 10:59 AM
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Re: (Wai)
you can see it came pretty close to me (about 5-10 ft) then it continue to roll backwards into the inside hills... he never put on his brakes.
08-20-2003, 11:08 AM
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Re: (Solracer)
i was expecting him to put on the brakes at some point of the spin, but he never did... so i ended up having to go off road. i knew where he was going. when i was going off road it was probably only like 15-20 mph speed... you can tell the path of the car by looking at its momentum and its steering wheel position. it comes with experience, and watching a lot of footages.
if we had hit i would be my fault in school environement. the owner has a in car vid too, hopefully i'll get a copy of it soon.
if we had hit i would be my fault in school environement. the owner has a in car vid too, hopefully i'll get a copy of it soon.
08-20-2003, 11:08 AM
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Re: (GhettoRacer)
Looks like the guy who spun didn't do a real good job of controlling the car or staying stationary, especially knowing that there was a car reasonably close behind him. Maybe you could have given him more space by slowing down earlier on, but he didn't come to a stop, started rolling backwards....
08-20-2003, 11:08 AM
#24
Re: (Solracer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solracer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yet why did you get so close?</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GhettoRacer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> study of human nature </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GhettoRacer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> study of human nature </TD></TR></TABLE>
08-20-2003, 04:16 PM
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In my opinion. If there was contact ( which I understand there was not) it would have been the following cars fault. The following car had plenty of warning that the lead car was spinning. The spin was the lead cars fault. It looks like after the spin while he is traveling backwards he tries to spin the nose around and continue. That took up the room that the following car had on the outside.
This is what I got out of it. I am not saying either driver was right or wrong. I am just saying what it looks like they did.
This is what I got out of it. I am not saying either driver was right or wrong. I am just saying what it looks like they did.