TurboBB2

Hello all,

I hope someone who has some body prepping experience will chime in on this.

I really do not know much about paint and body, but i am determined to do my own prep sanding in order to save a lot of money for my paint job. I am very patient and have time to do it right so i don't see any reason why i cant do this myself.

I have a 92 honda prelude, and the body is absolutely perfect. I have no dents on the car whatsoever so no bondo or any filler, but i do have quite a few layers of paint on the car, i have counted about 7.

I have had recommended to me by a couple shops and several friends to sand all the way down to the stock (red) original paint but stop there. All of the paint on the car is chipping all the way down to the original, so if i want a good looking paint job it needs to be sanded.

I do not have any materials or knowledge of wet sanding or sanding a car, although this definitely isnt my first time sanding. I have played around with fiberglass though.

how do i sand my car in this case? what kind of tools or sander should i use? Even if i don't do all of the sanding myself, as long as the majority is done for the paint shop it will save me a ton.

Thanks.

D7_62

I paint cars for a living. With lifetime warranty on all paint and workmanship so I hope my advice will count for something.

In a case like that, Yes I would sand all the paint down to the stock color.
You're going to need a DA (Dual-Action Sander) Don't be cheap on it! A good price is around 150$. Mine is a 6" Snap-on. You want to be able to adjust the speed on it. Also A good compressor to run said DA.

Grab a bunch of sand paper, like NORTON gold in grits 180, 220, 400.

Use 180 to eat it back to the stock color, I would then prime the whole car. about 3 wet coats, nice and thick with quality ****. Not spray bomb. Then I would block it all down with the 220 real nice, then finish it off with 400 on the DA.

Get some stuff like um... Bondo finishing glaze at Wal-mart. its like a putty that hardens like a mini tube of ready-to-go body filler so you can fill in chips and deep scratches and whatnot. After it's all nice and sanded 400 you're ready to lay paint!

No wet sanding involved. Don't waste your time. I guess you could wetsand the primer 400 if you wanted it to be real slick. but in the end when the car is cleared you can block the clear 1500, then buff it to get a real slick look too. Hope this helps. I'm sure there will be plenty of other opinions.

Lugzilla

If you've got that much paint, use an orbital sander with 80 grit to quickly knock off all those layers, then work up to 120, 220, 400 as you get close to the stock paint. Or you could do it with a rubber block, by hand. You'll have a much better appreciation for power tools if you do, I know I sure do. You most likely won't need to wetsand it if you're just doing all the sanding prep. I'd imagine whoever you have doing your paint will primer it and sand it down at that point.

Trey

Could he use a chemical paint stripper? I'm a paint noob and just wondering. Thanks.

TurboBB2

Thanks for all of the advice. I think that i will wet-sand the primer even if it is not completely needed (if i go that far) i want to be sure that it looks spectacularly shiny when finished! I may just sand the car down to the red (original) and having the body shop finish prepping the car to make sure its nice. But, i guess it all depends on how much i get into doing this i may enjoy it and attempt to finish prepping the car myself. I suppose, i cant really mess it up as long as i dont dig into the metal haha

This is going to take me quite some time to do as the engine bay and door jams are to be done as well. (engine bay - HORRIBLE i say! someone flat black spray canned the entire bay, including the old engine! didnt mask anything and went to town lol. everything has been replaced since then though its just the bay itself needs paint)

Door jams and the engine bay seem to be tricky to sand compared to a flat surface like the exterior of the car. Do you have any tips for sanding curved, non flat areas?

Now, your saying use a dual-action sander and lugzilla says to use orbital. Im not sure who to believe other than that i have been told by other people not to use an orbital sander, but a dual action one because it can leave swirl marks when the paint is finished?

Thanks for all of the help everyone

D7_62

Good questions. I say use a dual action because it moves back and forth and rides along the surface smoothly, whereas an orbital sander speeds up and gains momentum one way and can dig into the paint real hard and unevenly. Just my two cents, chances are if you spend a good amount on either one, you wont have swirl marks in your paint, unless you use a grit LESS THAN 400. When finishing always use a grit higher than 400.

As for sanding an engine bay and door jams, do what you can with your hand. and Scotchbrite pads are your friend! Get the "red" prep scotchbrite pads cus theyre course and manageable. If the paint is cleared over, you just want to scuff it enough so that the clear coat is dull. You don't have to go all the way down to the paint. Just gives it something for the paint to stick to.

Also, you dont want to use a chemical stripper because youre going to get a very uneven surface, and its a mess, and its just a horrible experience. Sanding is a lot of labor, but its way worth it in the end.

Plus, if they used spraybomb paint in the engine bay, get a bunch of paper towels and lacquer thinner and go to town, cus it will eat that **** right off.

DC2.2_GSR

^ Some good advice up there but some things I would suggest differently...

Use a chemical stripper wherever possible. Seven layers of paint is an insane amount to mechanically strip (DA sanding). When you strip down to bare metal you eliminate all possibilities of an uneven surface because you are removing the various layers of paint. The metal underneath the various layers of paint is (ideally) a perfectly smooth surface... it's going to be a ton of unevenly sanded layers of paint that is going to be a problem as far as wavyness. By chemically stripping, you can also expose any previously repaired areas and redo the repair correctly. With seven layers of paint, there's body work... count on it.

Another thing to think about is the fact that you are going to have to prime the entire car no matter what you do. If you chemically strip the car, you do your repairs if needed and then etch prime all bare metal and surface prime right over that, then block it and do the paint work. Or, if you choose the right high build epoxy primer you can eliminate the etch primer altogether. If you choose to mechanically strip the car with sandpaper, you'll definitely need to prime it. There's no getting around that. You can't just 'stop sanding at the original red' over the entire car. Also, to get through anywhere near seven layers of paint in any reasonable amount of time for a reasonably low materials budget you'll obviously need to use something like 80 or 180 grit on a body man's DA, which is more aggressive and built for removing material quickly. You'll definitely need to 2k prime over 80 or 180 grit scratches.

Also, as I sort of mentioned.. a DA sander is what you need for sure. Orbital sanders are for home improvement projects and whatever... DAs are for body/paint work. Use the right tool for the job.

Do it the way the pros do... chemically strip as much as possible and then go from there. Sanding off that many layers of pait by hand is just a waste of time and energy. Anyone who has ever mechanically stripped a large flat surface will tell you that it's hell. Chemical stripping is messy, but far easier.

TurboBB2

Thank both of you for all of the advice.

Orbital Sander is definitely out the window. I know for sure that the entire body of the car has no dents at all so that makes things a little easier. I had one dent in my front fender but it was replaced before i had the car painted and body kit molded on 4 years ago.

I was told to stop at the stock paint because nothing beats the adhesiveness to the metal than sticking with the stock paint as the base coat, although that was "budget advice". I suppose, with all of the work to get all of the paint off the car to only stop at the stock coat would be lazy considering the type of paint i want to put on the car. Went that far may as well just do it right and strip it down to the metal?

The crazy thing is, the original paint on the areas that chipped off to show it is very nice! It looks to be in perfect condition and not even sanded (which is probably why the car is chipping) still has a perfect clear coat on the original red..

It is starting to sound like a stripper would be the best to use since that really would be a ton of sanding and leaves room for imperfection but i know the body is perfect so stripper sounds like the way to go to get bare metal, but after the paint is off i would let the shop take it from there just to make sure that the primer would be properly put on since it would be bare metal, besides i do not have a sprayer or the proper tools to apply, and the paint i want to use is not cheap (which is why im trying to do some prep myself) i want this to be a very long lasting paint job.

What do you think of using stripper in this case, D7_62?

3-tone paint (i think its called 3-tone?) dark metallic grey that turns to black at slight angles with pearl in the clear is what im planning to do.

Again, thank you for all of the help i couldn't ask for better advice.

D7_62

The thing with the stripper is, when you take all the paint off. You have to take it to your shop that day or the next day so they can spray primer on it before rust starts. DC2.2 apparently has more experience with that than I, so I'm sure he will answer that question better.

I've never mixed effects.
One way to do this is to spray it with metallic paint with a dark side tone, then clear it. You wont have the pearl effect. Pearl paint jobs (3stage) are done by spraying a base color, with no metallic, then spraying a coat of pearl on it. then clearing.
I say don't put pearl in the clear because then if you get a scratch, you want to be able to buff it because you will see swirls and whatnot.

What brand of paint is your shop spraying? Just wondering.

DC2.2_GSR

There's a reason the car was painted up to seven times. Dings and dents (when repaired properly) will disappear under a regular paint job. There's absolutely no way to tell if there's any hidden damage unless you watched the car roll off the assembly line and have owned it since that day. Easily 25% of cars with under 50 miles on them on dealer lots have body work already done. Trust me... we have contracts with a few dealers around the area to fix their parking lot/test drive mishaps. lol. Until you strip the paint off completely you won't know what someone else has already had repaired.

Again, I don't know who gave you that advice, but forget it. lol. Not trying to be a dick but you have to realize the process that is mechanically stripping paint usually involves a 6" diameter abrasive covered disc spinning at a high RPM. While it is controllable in the right hands, it's not a precision instrument. There is no stopping at a certain layer. Modern automotive paint is very thin. You may be able to carefully sand down to a certain layer in one particular spot, but to do it over an entire panel or much less an entire car is just not feasible.

In one way, they were right in telling you that there's nothing like an OEM surface to paint over as far as adhesiveness, but in all reality there's plenty of modern automotive coverings that do a great job of mimicking the OEM finish. You can get a high quality etch or epoxy primer that will bite into the surface just as well as the OEM equivalent did.


Maaco job. They (usually) don't prep at all. This tells me that you definitely have to strip it all off. If a certain area of paint is chipping off, then the entire surface is compromised. When you fail to properly prep a car for paint and later on the paint starts to chip off, the only way to ensure that your new paint job will properly adhere to the substrate is to remove the improperly-prepped-for paint. In doing so, you'll damage the underlying paint, which in this case you assume to be the original paint.

You really should consider asking your paint shop if they even want you touching the car at all. To be perfectly honest, allowing a customer to prep their own car to save money is not really a commonly accepted practice in the industry no matter who tells you otherwise.

I'm signing my name across the car when I paint your vehicle. In order to comfortably do so, I need to make sure that everything is done perfectly, to my specs. If fact, our paint manufacturer only warranties their products when all work is done in-house by certified techs. Basically, we really discourage any attempt by a customer to 'save money' by doing their own prep work. We don't make any money on prep anyway, so it's not even like it's a money maker for us to do the work. We've turned away many jobs because things were done improperly by the customer.

Tri-coat. 3-stage. Candy. It's all essentially the same thing as far as the paint process goes. It basically means:

Substrates (primer[which gets block sanded], then sealer) go on first, followed by

(1) Basecoat: In a standard tri-coat pearl color like white, the basecoat will usually be a solid with no metallics or pearls. It gives a solid background that makes up the main color of the job. In a typical 'candy' job, the basecoat has the metallics and/or pearls and is what gives the crazy effect to the finished color.

(2) Midcoat: Standard tri-coat white from above... the midcoat is a semi-clear basecoat solution with the only additive being the pearl. When applied over the solid white, all you see is the pearl floating over the white. Since there is no colorant, your eyes see the solid color background with a 3D looking 'second paint layer' of pearl. For a candy color, the midcoat is an intense, translucent color that gives the job the actual hue. When applied over the metallic/pearl basecoat you see right through the midcoat and can see the basecoat effect as normal, except it's tinted a different color.

(3) Clear: Simple... a relatively perfect clear layer over everything. Duh. lol. Some people put pearl in the clear, but it's not very bright. If you have to sand and buff the car, you run the risk of 'moving' the pearl and ruining the job. Much worse, if/when you need to make a repair, blending out a pearl-clear is next to impossible without the original paint and in some cases, the original painter. If you insist on getting a pearl in the clear, to do it properly you MUST get a separate non-pearl clear layer sprayed directly on top of the pearl clear. Thsi will allow wetsanding and buffing of the car without risk of screwing up the way the pearl looks. This will drive up your labor (and materials) cost significantly because the entire car will need to be left to cure after the pearl clear coat and then re-prepped before adding the non-pearl clear. It's not very safe to add more than 3 coats of clear at a time because of the chemistry of the material doesn't allow it to adhere to itself or cure properly if 3+ wet coats are added at once.

To sum it up, pearl in the clear is pointless. Just get a standard midcoat pearl over the basecoat and you'll be good to go. What you're describing would be a basecoat color with a sharp sidetone covered by a pearl midcoat, then covered by regular clear. It's a standard tri-coat job in theory, but make sure you have your painter do what are called 'spray outs' or 'test panels' to show you the effects of the pearl in different steps of the process. Make sure you get the effect you're after and don't let any painter tell you something is impossible. It might cost more, but there's very little that's impossible to do with modern colors and materials.

Okay, sorry... I basically wrote a book. lol. I'm bored. Hope that helps.

Mr.Ek.Hatch

bbuummpppp

DC2.2_GSR

Getting the post count up for Marketplace access? Cool.

D7_62

Holy crap DC2.2, throw the book at him!
Just kidding, very informative. I'm sure this is what he's looking for.
You guys don't make any money on prep? I'm sure on something like that they would give you quite a few hours in labor to strip that crap.

Yeah, there's definitely bodywork somewhere in there. Unfortunately. Unless the previous owner had to change the color of his car every month.