REDLUDE4WS

I am very curious to know if anyone has done this combo before. If you read the previous post i had, sorry, was a shitty header for the question. Someone must have tried this before. I have one built, the pistons snaggle out of the block 0.026" on the piston height side not dish/dome. I used mahle gold series forged pistons h22 -1cc stock dish/dome pistons, h23 rods, h23 crank, h23 block. yes i know people have built h23 frankenstiens, it works, i did the measurements as well. i wanted forged pistons, mahle pistons were the only choice for bang and buck. Some must have tried this before. Yes it runs, yes it is very high compression, holds pressure at 235psi each cylinder, and has 30000 on it of heavy heavy abuse. Anyone? not looking for people who read something on here or elsewhere but actually having done this before...

REDLUDE4WS

Damn... i was hoping when i got up someone would have posted something.... welcome to the new face of forged high compression bored stroked h series madness folks. It has been created... anyone? Come on someone had to have tried this ****.... cant just be me... come on folks...

q16racer

using h22 pistons is very common and is typically what most people use when using h23 crank and rods.

mherkamp

Yes very common, just make sure to check piston to valve clearance before buttoning it up, the compression height on h22 pistons is higher than h23, making them have a tendancy to stick "out of the hole"

REDLUDE4WS

I am not talking about the dish/dome people the side of the piston, the piston height. it is not common. the crankshaft will not reciprocate, the pistons will hit the head. If it is common then have you done it, or show me someone that has please. I have a university degree in mechanical engineering, and am licensed automotive technician, for 18 years. I tune vehicles at night, and on weekends. I know what i am talking about. I did the math. I did the measurements. you are both giving opinions, based on nothing more than what you beleive, or read on a forum. Thank you for replies. Anyone out there do this before... dont want hate or opinions give me some fact. I dont need bs, i built it, i will know you make no sense lol!

REDLUDE4WS

Maybe these two pictures will clear the air. This is when i finished prepping one piston into the block. Check the side of the piston. Not the dish. Not the dome. The side of the piston, where you measure piston height from, centre of pin journal to top of piston. Tell me this is normal! Find another engine which has this done i have a feeling you wont.

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

You evidently dont know what the term "compression height" means, but its the same as what you are reffering to as piston height. There is a counterbore in the head roughly .06" deep, add that to the gasket thickness of .026"-.03" depending on what brand you go with and you have more than plenty of room before the piston will interfere with the head. The only way it would hit the head is if you were using an h22 rod instead of an h23 rod but that would be suicide unless you were running a custom piston with a shorter compression height.

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

found one, what do I get?

REDLUDE4WS

That is the compression height, the dish dome, not the piston height. you get squat. ya ya i did the math. the **** will hit the head it tried it hits and btw the combustion chamber arent 87mm. look at the piston height. that is just an 11.5 or 12 to 1 piston. been there done that man. old news

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

Actually that was a 14:1 setup I built several years ago.

Show me your math, I want to see how you get to 2.4 liters. Sorry if you don't believe me, its just a simple volume equation.

You are right the chambers arent 87mm, thats why I said at the worst you would have to do is open up the counterbore. Running a thicker headgasket isnt neccesary and will lower your compression much more than counterboring the head a little larger. Usually depending on the piston design the top of the piston above the ring land is undersize a bit, and there is also a radius there. All you really need to do is break that top edge of the chamber to get the clearance you need.

REDLUDE4WS

Im not giving you the math man. You are correct. what i meant to say is volume behind valves total. i am going off math i did 3 years ago. that was the number i calculated to figure out the compression of the engine. n ot displacement. normally it would be 2272cc in most cases because of simple math, but it isnt at straight pie r squared times height times cylinders calculation on this thing because the piston is 0.026 though higher in the culinder at tdc and at bdc. you cannot countersink the combustion chamber enough, it doesnt have the meat to do that and seat the gasket between cyls 2 and 3, when it is overbored. what did you do to make it work then. did you used h23 rod crank with h22 pistons, or use a high compression h22 bottom end. it looks like it from picture

REDLUDE4WS

if you counterbored the combi chambers that much, one you wouldnt have the meat and the head would break between 2 and 3 after a small amount of time because of the preignition occuring due to the hot spot at the groove you just made in the chamber lol. as well if you bore out the combustion chamber you are dropping your compression in doing so. besides the fact your valves will get cranked in the process of raising the piston into the combustion chamber that extensively. do a gross valve lift measurement with the valve at full lift considering where the piston is in the bore. just after valve overlap your piston will mash the exhaust valve if you bring the piston anywhere above 0.08 thou depending on valve lash adjustment, which better be spot the **** on. which is contrary to popular belief that it would be the intake because it is bigger. not the case. if you raised the piston into the bore 0.026 which is how much higher than stock this is, that just wont work so i call bs. regardless of your website and your already known specifications. no physical evidence yet bro. look at my pic. all i see in yours is high compression pistons. and if you used those you would even turn the crank at all the edges and the dome would destroy everything before you heard it turn over once

REDLUDE4WS

all i want to know is have you or have you not built one using h22 pistons, with h23 rods, and crank. What you are saying cannot work.... you said... thats why I said at the worst you would have to do is open up the counterbore... this sounds pretty much like you are guess thats what you would have to do, BUT IT DOES NOT WORK! i tried! it doesnt work with a factory head gasket, you cant counter sink the combi chamber becasue it leaks compression in btwn 2 and 3. there are more reason what you are saying wont work as well. Yes or no. i will post more info, but i will not give you my math or what parts i used. be real here with yourself lol show me how you kept to valve form getting smashed.. it woudl definately. dont remember valve lift is but i think like 11mm intake side at 5 degrees gross lift.i created a mathematical equation to figure where valve lift in mm put the valve and where at every 1 degree i could find exact cylinder height in the bore. i will show you why i know if you tell me how you did it by countersinking. you would have had to use a different cam than stock lift, duration maybe but not lift. yes or no. did you or didnt you build one yourself using h22 pistons

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

Wow you are arrogant. First of all, displacement is bore x stroke, nothing more nothing less, it has nothing to do with the dome or dish on the piston, nor the combustion chamber. Think about it if the piston sticks up .026" at top dead center then its going to be .026" high at the bottom of the cylinder, it can't move any farther than the stroke of the crankshaft lol so it doesnt matter what shape it is. For compression calculations, yes, for displacement no. Displacement is just the amount of volume a cylinder displaces.

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with counterboring the combustion chamber, and of course you don't leave that sharp edge there you blend it into the rest of the chamber. Conterboring a small sliver of material around the chamber is only going to drop the compression a very very small amount. Running a thicker headgasket will drop the compression big time. A gasket thats .02" thicker could easily take you from 12:1 down to 11:1.

Theres no risk of the chamber being too thin by matching the cylinder bore, you are making the web between each chamber any smaller than the web between the cylinders.

q16racer

leave him be shawn. Arrogant people dont deserve help from people like us.

here's my old setup (h22 wiseco pistons, h23 crank, h23 rods). Used a .051" gasket so i could use pump gas.

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

I've been building them that way for the last 10 years, yes H23 crank and rods and H22 pistons. I've used 87mm Arias, 88 and 89mm Wiseco's, 87 and 89mm CP's and oem type-s as well as the standard usdm H22 piston and JDM H22 piston. Like I said I have no experience with the Mahles, if you do your reasearch on them you will find that they have had problems with their valve pocket sizing. I assure you everything I have ever built has had plenty of clearance and I run the biggest off the shelf cams you can buy which is the S2 Pro3 with right at .500" lift intake. Plenty of clearance even with the head shaved .04" and the counterbore recut to correct size and diameter.

REDLUDE4WS

i dont understand how those pictures are exactly the same as 98vtec build pics. i get you used a 0.051 head gasket....which would make the totally length of the engine 0.051 higher than stock. if you decked the block to achieve the proper RA, and to remove even slight warpage. Then you shaved the head 0.04" that would still make the engine, for arguments sake 0.051 (cometic custom)- 0.026 (stock head gasket i think)- 0.06(slight deck and shave loss of total height) = 0.019 thou higher than total height of engine. now when you speak about circumference of belt you have to account for that extra length. the t belt is not long enough. i dont understand how you say no prob to timing belt. it is a big prob. i dont want to argue with either of you. i asked a question to find people who have done it. ive been doing this for awhile way. i just dont understand how your pics are of 98vtec build i looked on bbmoto and it brought me his page off the wiki link... huh.... weird...

REDLUDE4WS

i can see your all friends and take this way too seriously... you all scratch each others backs and that is great. I dont want or need help... that isnt ever what i asked for guys. Am i not allowed to question what you are both saying... or is this website no different than when i pitched it 2007 for the same reasons. is this site run by honda ***** i didnt start the name game lads relax ok

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

If you use a thicker headgasket then yes, the timing belt will be tight, especially with the manual tensioner, but its doable. If you use a stock headgasket then it will fit like stock (still tighter with the manual tensioner) A hybrid H23 vtec is nothing more than an ordinary H22 motor with an H23 crankshaft and connecting rods. In stock form the pistons stick out of the hole .02". Its by far the way to go if you are building a cheap and reliable all motor setup.

Dude we are just trying to help you out but you come off so defensive. We are all here to learn and better ourselves. Blake and I and many others who no longer post here frequently have been around here forever and are always bouncing new ideas off each other and learning from each other. My pics are of my build and no one elses, if you want more details just look through my 20+ page build thread. All the pics, videos, dyno graphs, timeslips and testing I have done is very well documented and many have used that information to build their own setups. This is just one of the many builds that I have done over the years, and deffinately one that I have learned alot from. My goal for the build was to keep it simple and use off the shelf parts that anyone could duplicate. It started as a 12:1 build then later I did some more headwork and was able to get the compression up to 14:1. You cant come on here and tell us that we are all just full of bs because we do things differently than you. How do you expect to learn anything if you are constantly bashing the people who are trying to help you?

q16racer

For future reference, if you want help from people who have been there and done that, dont try to make yourself out to be billy badass when you cant understand simple engine concepts and general mechanics or for that matter, use google.

REDLUDE4WS

You arent understanding, i am not looking for your help. I dont know why you are going off. I am not defensive. I have h22 pistons, h23 rods, h23 crank, h23 block which has been decked, a shaved head, type s cams, 4 stage ported head, polished, port matched, custom intake, custom rail, modified 440cc dsm injectors, modified timing belt tensioner (tight isnt even the word lol). I have had this original engine for years. I do not come on here ever, I dont care! I can see you have been and thats great. But for the last time dude, i am not looking for your help, i dont need it. My build works, and has many times.

REDLUDE4WS

Rosko i didnt mean to say you were bs and did at first, This head work has probably encompassed more of your life that it has mine. By the sounds of things you have the head work down to a science, and as a machinist you have access to a hell of alot of tools noone else ever does. I wish i did. I didnt have the time. But i am confused. the pistons for an h22 and h23 have different piston heights. i dont understand how you figure they are the same height at tdc... if you take h23 piston/rod/crank hight from piston to crankshaft centre of journal, it is shorter, and flush to deck. the h22 piston/h23 rod/h23 crank set up is longer and is heigher than the deck and less than normal swept volume in the cylinder itself.

REDLUDE4WS

i did hell of alot of measurements, a hell of alot of math, took a wack of engines apart, and stasted screwing around. if i had a machinist at hand i may have already had a k24 crank in an h seies block but it was slightly too short on the pulley end of the crank. other than that it wouldve worked. i know your pics are for real. but your friends dont lead to his post, which is kind of weird. i dont want to argue, thats where they lead to, just saying lol. i have never been the type to bother to much on forums. i did way back because i hurt myself for a bit and was bored ***. i enjoy a keen mind, and banter to me can be heated and thank clink a few glasses afterwards. the work you would have done to mill the combis out would be economical suicide for anyone who doesnt have a head milling machine at hand. so maybe seemedc skeptical. after some searching, i can see i may have been hasty in my judgement. your friend is still lippy, and probably woudlnt be if i was there lol. yes i know you read that, dont care mr pictures lol. all i care about is figuring out if someone had done this before. you have taken it to more of an extreme than i had planned. i went mahle and boosted the **** out of it. you went all motor and overcame some serious variables i didnt want to risk. the math was too close and still dont see how they dont hit the valve with the pistons recessed that much. i wish i had any of my old notes but they are somewhere else lol. I just woulkd like to see what i missed, or what i didnt.

REDLUDE4WS

i am far from being some kind of an idiot because i dont have a website, or post on this website which generally doesnt hold alot of salt to anyone... many think forums are full of misinfo and retarded opinions. most of them are correct. maybe mr rosko you are one of the few who actually knows wtf they are talking about. in short time you can have hondatech back and i will go back to not worrying about this anymore lol. its not that big of a deal to me, im working on vq's. ps for both of your information, i grew up poor, worked my dick off to get what i have. i am no different than both of you im sure. i have earned the right to have what i have at 33 years old. none gave it too me, my parents arent rich... i didnt mean to come across as a rich ***got at all not what i meant.