seklze

A little backround i have a 1996 honda prelude SI swapped to a H22a from hmo w/ matching trans and ecu, did the obd1 dizzy to make it all work.

When i got the motor it was very clean, i replaced the timing belt, balancer belt and did a manual tensioner swap (h23 style) and put in a new clutch.

fast forward 17k miles later, all full synthetic oil changes w/ fresh filters, started with pennzoil, than castrol, now have been doing amsoil the last 13k. doing a tear down because my intake cam seal started leaking even picked up a new timing belt for it while i was in there i was debating about valve seals, did a leakdown check and found it leaks pretty bad from the rings, valve seals are fine when i popped the cam and was greeted by some pretty bad ridges on all the rockers especially the exhaust side, deepest on the number 1 exhuast rockers. cam looks pretty okay.

looking at my options when my motor is healthy im planning to map somewhere around a 300whp turbo build and throw it all in.

questions are: If i dont have any bad ridges in my cylinders i should be able to re-ring without a hone correct? i plan to check all my bearings when my motor is out and replace as needed, but being as the motor should be pretty low mileage est around 38k on it when it was swapped in, i shouldnt be looking at major machining unless something went terribly wrong. the motor runs like a champ, if i could throw in new rings and avoid machining it would be ideal. feel free for brand input for piston rings right now it seems like NPR isnt a bad option with the FRM liners.

2, is there any options besides a used head for valve rockers or expensive roller rockers that delete vtec. they look to be about $1k + from the dealer. i saw endyn was planning on making some but that looks like it never came to be.

it seems like my biggest obstacle right now is what to do with the worn rockers. i guess i should not need a aftermarket cam for my hp goal w/ turbo. But i dont want to run into another torched OE head down the road.

snobordboy

Use stock rings if possible, or I have had decent luck with Nippon rings on stock pistons.

I am of the school of thought that with FRM, if there are no ridges on the bore, and the cylinder is round and straight, just re-ring and go, hopefully with the same pistons in the correct holes. If planning on boost, set your ring gaps and bearing clearances appropriately to save the ringlands!

For the head, I would just search for a decent set of used rockers, I have seen many junkyard H22 head with decent rockers. Also, upgrade to the new spring style LMAs, using shims if needed in an older head. Might as well have a machine shop check the valve guides, and replace any if needed. My last head I thought was fine, but needed all new guides on the exhaust side along with the new valves I was having lapped in.

spoolinlude

Agreed - Don't re-hone the FRM if it isn't messed up. I am rebuilding one that had 230k on it and they were perfect.

Cylinder head work is CHEAP unless you're doing performance porting etc. I just had this head from the 230k motor redone for $130. Full valve job, cleaned, basically brand new.

Rockers shouldn't be worn like that, sounds like some object or objects made their way thru there at one point.

seklze

Alright valve guides are okay, right now I didn't have the time to get into the cylinders, I'm going to order all the gaskets and rings at least ahead of time and do it all in the stand after pulling the motor.

It's nice to know pple have had luck with the npr rings, as I like to do o.e. but the cost for all the rings is nuts from Honda.

When setting the ring gap to "save the ring lands" for turbo are we talking setting tolerances on the tighter side of o.e.?? I've done a few turbos this would be my first h series. My last was a eBay set up in a scion lol.

Also on the used rockers. I have seen a feW sets for 80 or so that look okay and advertise just normal wear, but wont trying to get then to mate with my old cam possibly cause them to start wearing faster?? Or has this been done with the h22 with good results??

Sparksman

HMO is pretty good about sending quality engines, they check over and do leak down tests to each one before shipping.

Honda engines are *****, they enjoy being loose. If your boosting or running N2o set the ring gap and rod bearings towards the looser end of the specs.

what condition are the cams in?

seklze

The cams do not look bad but I'm waiting for the micrometer to tell, I had it at work so I couldn't measure to tell officially what shape the cam is in yet.

And yeah I'm surprised I went to hmo for this motor because the horror stories I heard about other importers but just looking over this motor I think somebody was having a bad day, I'm trying to find a problem because I would not think that the motor got so worn while I was being so picky about changing the oil, I was about 80.miles late on one oil change the rest were done a little early.

I do my oil changes at 4k miles with filter.used to do 3k but the motor oil was looking so fresh I let it go to 4k. Still will drain amber.

As it is if I can't find something wrong I guess I'll just have to chalk it up to bad luck, I'll post pics of worn rockers later they are all pretty bad.

Any input on replacing rockers with good condition used?? Or is that bad without matching the cam.

dagle

iTrader: (1)

If you are going boost, regardless of power goals, I would advise better pistons while the engine's apart. the ringlands on H22's are notoriously the achilles' heel.

seklze

I've been debating about pistons, options are very limited without sleeving, just the mahles.

What have people experienced with the mahles?

Do type s pistons experience the same weak ringland?? Though that's going into more compression than I'd like on a turbo build for a semi regularly driven car.

The weak ringlands are a killer for the h22, despite that haven't there been many 300hp jdm h22 turbos that were decently reliable with stock internals as long as it was tuned right and the motor was healthy/maintained?

**I definitely want the advice dagle, just looking for more input, I dumped a lot into this car getting it where it is now already, I don't want to cut corners but cost.

dagle

iTrader: (1)

I completely understand the predicament you're in and I don't have a solid answer unfortunately. I was in the process of finding out, but have since bought an EVO and halted the project.

I used S2000 (F22C1 engine code) rods and pistons on an H22 crank and it fit, however the piston is too tall by about 4mm. A shorter rod or destroked crank would alleviate the problem and leave you with FRM-compliant pistons that are known to be boost-friendly. Alternatively, you could machine your H22 rods to accept S2000 wrist pins but that's more costly than buying new rods.

The valve reliefs are another topic of discussion, but I don't think it is a huge issue. And for reference, there was some maniac that achieved 823whp on a stock block. I've also seen a few over 700whp that were stock longblocks.

Sparksman

What year is your jdm engine? If you have a 50mm main you should go get a H23a1 crank, rods "forged if you got the $", and the oem 9.8:1 pistons.
Run a .050" head gasket should put you in the 9.1:1 area. But if you take into account that the h22a head has a larger dome, that should put you at a 9.0:1 flat. Now you have a low compression stroked h22. Oem H series pistons should be good for close to 500HP.

I know K series factory forged piston work with our FRM. I dont know too much about fitting or clearances though.

Add some ARP head and main studs to hold it together. To save money on a intake, keep and gut the oem intake manifold. They do rather well gutted for oem, especially with a decent spacer or two.

Theres the most cost effective way to rebuild your engine to get the most hp and torque for boosting.


If you have the 55mm mains you either need a SIR h23aV crank, or you will have to stick with the h22a's rods/crank.


----I have a related questions------

Q-So i know a 22/23A1's rod can be modified to accept the newer A4's pistons, or type-s. Can you go from the newer rods to the older style pistons?

I ask for two reasons
A- If the Op has a newer style rods could he utilize the 23a1's 9.8:1 pistons?
B- I have future boost plans myself maybe next year, and I had been planning this lol.

Q-So the H22A4 style rods and the older A1 style rods have different rod bearing part numbers. Is that because of rods or crank? Are they interchangeable? Could I run 50mm rods on a 55mm crank? If so would I use the bearings associated to the crank or rod?

Sorry not to thread jack OP, just a few Q's I had I thought were on topic of engine rebuild.

seklze

i have a the wires running from the sensors in the oil pump to the dizzy, i think thats the 97 to 01 with the 55mm mains and when i got it steve at HMO said it was obd2.

i don't see 50mm rods working with the 55mm rod journals on the h22.

I have a f23 thats beginning to look really good, it has a good bottom end with burned #3 exh valves. everything else is good. might be Frankenstein time LOL.

ARP main and headstuds are a given when i play with motors haha, thanks though.

Has the k series been verified?? i thought that they wouldnt work with our FRM liners. and i think it is the k24 has a 87mm bore, but from what i know i thought we had to stick with type s, mahle, or stock f22 pistons from an s2k. or go sleeve it up.

Stinks cos the FRM sleeves are actually plenty strong enough for most of us, its material compatibility that kills them.

When i rip out the motor ill know all, waiting for the gaskets and rings to come in. i figure no matter what HP goal, i want it running well stock first. if i need to sleeve to safely get to where i wanna be ill need to save for a little, might as well be able to drive her around. (and my new suspension is wanting to be driven more haha she has barely been out since i put it all in.)

seklze

Cyl 2 exhaust





cyl 3 exhaust





cyl 4 exhaust.

dagle

iTrader: (1)

All H22's use 50mm rod journals I believe.

seklze

wow.. yeah i was following the wrong train of thought there, its the later models mains that are 55mm, right?





this is the date stamp correct?? would this make it cast july of 1996?

Sparksman

Yes K series will 100% work, but whats needed to modfy it to the rod or what clearances will be i dont know. I highly doubt you will make enough HP to exceed factory pistons... So IMHO money would be better spent else where. If you can put obd1 style pistons on obd2 rods, as i just mentioned the 23a1 9.8:1 would be your best option.

How do you not see them working? My only issue is because of different bearing part numbers... 50mm, and 55mm are the crank journal sizes not rods.

The rods should be the same, but they use different bearings. I want to know if thats due to the difference in the rods or the crank, and if can be interchanged.

seklze

Has anyone been putting the h23 pistons in the obd2. H22??

Sparksman

Yes, people do for low compression with A1 rods/cranks, but will they fit on A4 rods, and/or will A1 rods fit on A4 cranks?

I dont like saying obd1 and obd2, beause obd2 came both 50mm and 55mm cranks.

seklze

I feel like there is no reason h23 pistons wouldn't work haven't people been throwing the h22 pistons on h23 rods and cranks??

Hmm aftermarket rod manufacturers arent offering any a1 or a4 rod versions for the h22..

dagle

iTrader: (1)

Alternatively, you could ditch the H platform for an F-series platform that has iron sleeves. It appears to be exactly what you're looking for (sub 400whp, daily driven).

I don't know about availability to you since you're ordering motors from HMO, but around here in California, you can get F20B's for <500$ all day long.

Sparksman

Well I "feel" it would work too, but I can feel all I want about things all day long. Doesnt make it so though, that's why I'm asking.

Yes people have been mix matching the A1 parts for awhile. That's why I want to know if the bearings need to be associated to the crank and not rods. If the rods are the same, you would just run rod bearings to match the crank.

But most importantly I needed to know if I can put old style pistons on newer rods.

I've searched and can't come up with a answer.


---Again sorry if you feel I high jacked your thread, wasnt my intention----

dagle

iTrader: (1)

The only thing that matters is wrist pin diameters for piston/rod compatibility between the platforms. As far as the bearings go, I think ACL (aftermarket) bearings are the same for H22A1/H22A4 with 50mm cranks.

hybrid_KJ

What brand of oil are you using? Are you running any ZDDP additives? That looks like typical rocker wear for an h22 running an oil with an insufficient additive package. You need replacement rockers on both sides and I'd suggest running a bottle or two of STP oil additive per oil change. Only costs an extra $6 per oil change.

seklze

i have been running amsoil as of late, i used ZDDP additives my first 2 oil changes after the swap since than i ran castrol full synthetic one oil change and amsoil after that.

I was researching part #s for the h series and found up into 96 the wrist pin for the h22a and h22a1 are the same. h22a4 it changes. so i guess the casting date on my head is pretty inconclusive because its right in that period where it could of been a 96 motor or a 97.. being as its in july if i read right it has a pretty good chance of being a 97 h22a...

the h22a im not as clear on for the changes it went through.. were they the similar to the changes made from the h22a1 to the a4?? such as the mains and other internals changing??

dagle

iTrader: (1)

As far as I know, the only changes were the main bearing diameter.

H22A4 97 were 50mm

H22A4 98: SOME were 50mm, SOME were 55mm.

H22A4 99+ were all 55mm.



As far as I know (I may be wrong), rod diameters remained the same at 50mm and I have treated them in the past as such using ACL bearings and simply measuring the clearances.

ish474

I can confirm some 98 had 50mm cranks i am staring at one with 55mm bearings inmy hand right now FML