Olias

Hello all. Been a while since I've been here but I have a problem with my daughters 2000 CRV that is driving me nuts and I need some help. I will be happy to describe the symptoms leading up to the no start status as well as describe the tests that have been done and parts that have been replaced. But first I just need some confirmation on whether the fact that the Intake Cam marking is for sure one cog's worth ahead of it's matching mark at TDC while the Exhaust Cam's marking is spot on. Or, you could also say that the Intake Cam's mark is spot on and the Exhaust Cam's mark is a cog's worth ahead of TDC if that makes sense. It cranks like there's no tomorrow, I have spark, fuel, and great compression. I'll explain how I know this. But right now I'd like someone to look at the pics I attempted to take of the Cam's and their marks and tell me if that's off far enough to make things out of sync enough to cause a no start situation. The pics really don't do it justice because I tried to take them close up enough for detail but the angle doesn't really show how far off the one Cam is. So I'll post the 2 pics I have, let a few folks take a look and see what you all think. Then I'll be happy to answer any questions you have. Ah, what the heck, I know you'll need some of the specifics so I'll just list em' here anyway.

Symptoms
Basically over about a 2 week period the car started to sputter and cut out (but not die) when driving above 25-30 mph. Below that speed/rpm it ran smoothly. Over the course of the next week or so it just got worse and would even kill sometimes when coming to a stop. I was able to start it up a few times in her driveway, it would run real rough and then die. Eventually it would crank like crazy but no longer start. So I started with the basic elements... Fuel, Spark, air. I checked the fuel pressure and got 42 PSI. Book calls for between 38-46 PSI. I also put on a new Fuel Filter and spark plugs. Still no joy. I tested the ICM and coil in the Dizzy myself and then also took them into an Autozone to be tested on their machine. They not only passed but with good strong numbers. I was really hoping that was the problem, but no. Since they said they can't test the TDC sensor that is built into the Dizzy I didn't want to take a chance so I put a new Dizzy in as well. I verified that the Fuel pump was working by not only doing a fuel pressure check but made sure I could here the Main Relay for the pump clicked when turning the key on to the on position but also removed the rear seat to make sure I could hear the fuel pump engaging. It does. I also did a Compression check on the engine and got great numbers. The book calls for 180 PSI and I had 178-179-180-180. The only other thing(s) that I've done was take the MAP sensor off to make sure it wasn't all crudded up. Looks fine but that doesn't really tell me anything and I don't know how or if it is possible to "test". I also have not tested nor do I know how to test the "Cam Position Sensor" down inside where the timing belt is. Basically the last thing I did was pull the valve cover off so I could see the timing marks on the cams and hand turned the motor over to TDC and checked them. This is what lead me to my opening statement. after seeing that one of the marks is a cog off I was wondering if that is enough to cause the no start. With my limited knowledge I thought that the car should still start but just run really rough like it's out of time....which it is. Right?

Sorry for such a long post but I know you guys like and need as much info. Please check out the pics and let me know what ya think. Heck, you might not even NEED to see the pics. Maybe knowing that it's off by a cog is enough to answer this. Oh, I forgot to mention...yes, the very first thing I checked were any corresponding fuses. All are good. The only other thing I don't know how to check is the Computer (ECU?). I mention this because the weirdest thing of all is that during this whole process not one code has been thrown! Hard to believe but themz the facts. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Bryan

OneBadTurboCRV

You are looking on the wrong side of the sprockets. You set TDC off of the crank pulley and then verify the lines on the other side of the cam gears are pointing at each other with the "UP" arrows pointing towards the sky.

You didn't say if it was flooding out or anything likes that. You gave a lot of info, but not necessarily the right details. As for your problem, if all checks out good (and not knowing if any CEL are on or what they are) then I would assume you have a clog in your exhaust. This would most likely be the catalytic converter. You can do a simple check by pulling the O2 sensor or disconnecting the exhaust before the cat. This assumes your spark plugs aren't fouled out as well.

Olias

Wow, so much to learn still. Thank you for the advice on how to actually read the marks properly. I didn't even look or know where to look on the Crank Pulley while doing the TDC test. I will do that whole thing again and report back. Also had no clue that there could be a clog in the exhaust system or that it could cause these sort of symptoms but it sure acts like it could be something like that. I'll check that out, but shouldn't it throw a code if the O2 sensor is bad? What does pulling the O2 sensor do? Meaning, what should I look for after doing this? Are you saying that a bad/faulty O2 sensor could keep it from starting and that by pulling it see if it makes a difference in starting or not? In the mean time I will go watch another video on the TDC process and pay more attention this time. as far as codes go I did mention that it is not throwing ANY, which I think is strange but I'm no expert either.

Bryan

UK-Kev

Hello,
Engine timing read this >>> https://honda-tech.com/honda-element...b20bz-3237409/

Regarding engine problem sputtering and cut out (but not die) have you changed the fuel filter and do you have any error codes?

Kev

OneBadTurboCRV

Sorry, it was a lot to read so I missed that. Like I said though, pulling the O2 (upstream) OR disconnect the exhaust. Pulling the O2 gives the engine just enough exhaust evacuation to let the engine idle.

The O2 still has absolutely nothing to do with starting a vehicle and is not needed to drive it either. It is for fuel economy and if it isn't present the computer will run on the safe side (rich). You should probably start with a fresh set of spark plugs before you attempt anything else.

Olias

Hey there Turbo....sorry it took so long to get back to this. The weather has been torrential the past few days and kinda hard to get outside. Anyway..in the FWIW dept. I did manage to get out there long enough to check for the timing marks on the other side of the cams as directed and took a pic. BTW those white dots do actually line up exactly with the rectangle areas on the flip side as seen in my 1st pics. Obviously the one on the right is still about one cog/tooth worth off to the right. Don't know if that is off enough to not allow the car to start or not. When weather permits I am going to go pull the upstream O2 sensor and maybe disconnect the CAT if necessary and give that a try. Lastly, I agree on the spark plugs. A guy at work said the same thing. I guess even though they are brand new with all the cranking I've been doing they are saturated with gas now and I guess you can't get them properly cleaned up etc. True? So yes, I will get some new ones. I'll be reporting back.

Hey UK-Kev....thanks for the link. I'll give it a read!

Bryan

OneBadTurboCRV

Assuming you were going CCW when rotating (these are reverse rotation engines) then that timing belt is too loose. Also, it's hard to tell in the picture but it looks more than one tooth off. If it is off one tooth it will still run, although poorly and definitely could have lead to a clogged cat. But 2 teeth or more is a whole different story. Read the link Kev posted as I explained why to another guy. If your crank TDC mark was lined up correctly then you definitely need servicing done to the timing belt. Read that link for more details on that (sorry, don't feel like retyping it here HAHA!!!). For fouled spark plugs it's not worth the effort and they will never be like they were anyways.

In my opinion you should focus on the mechanical timing first before you continue diagnosis. Keep in mind, on the sprockets nothing else matters other than the "UP" arrows pointing somewhere towards the sky rather than the ground and the two tiny marks are pointing directly at each other. The "UP" arrows are usually tilted more towards the front of the car anyways than perfectly vertical. Any other coincidence with marks or slots is completely irrelevant.

Olias

Uhhh...no, I didn't turn it CCW. Didn't know it was supposed to go that way. Rats. Okay, so I need to do this all over I guess. Just put everything back together yesterday because I wanted to make sure no dust/dirt or any other contaminants got into the valves etc. Also I will have to find some good pics of this engine to look at to find these arrows you speak of. So far the only arrows I've found are the 2 that you can see in my 1st two pics that are located on the on top of the manifold. I don't see any words either that say "up" anywhere either. I must be looking in the wrong places. I need to get a second pair of eyes on this while I turning the crank to make sure I'm not missing the marks I'm supposed to be using. Is there supposed to be any mark(s) on the crank pulley or pulley nut itself? I'll do a bit more research on all that and I agree to concentrate on the mechanical basics of making sure the timing is right first and foremost. Onward and upward! I sure do appreciate all your input. Thanks.

Bryan

Olias

Aahhh...Found a few pics like the one below of what you are talking about. Not my exact engine but within a year or so and shows what I think you've been trying to describe to me. I see now that there are quite a few marks that need to line up. I understand a bit more now. Duh Thanks again.

Bryan

Olias

Okay...I hate to be a total idiot so thought I'd ask to make sure. When it comes to firing orders (Dizzy & Motor) all the sites I have checked out agree that the motor firing order is 1-3-4-2....BUT...there's two different Distributor firing orders shown depending on which site you're at so I need to know which is correct before I continue. Is it Diagram A or B? Thanks

Bryan

OneBadTurboCRV

Out of the service manual and second one is just for your reference.

PS - Sorry, no idea why, it made them sideways and I can't fix it... I tried.

Olias

Thanks for clarifying that. Much appreciated.

-BH-

Olias

Okay, once again no joy. I took everything back off so I could check my timing marks on the Cams and crankshaft from the correct side as well as turning the motor CCW this time. Kinda figured but as expected the "UP" marks line up exactly with the marks I first showed you. There are white dots marking the little rectangle that has "UP" and an arrow stamped in it. Like I say, it's still one tooth off, going the other direction now. Meaning, when the UP Arrow on the Intake valve is even with the arrow on the opposite side on top of the manifold the up arrow on the Exhaust Cam is one tooth to the left (so one tooth AFTER TDC). I guess that doesn't really matter right now because my understanding as of now is that this is not enough to cause my no start situation. Sure, it would run rough if it did start, but, it should start. Correct? What I am going to do next is put it all back together but put brand new spark plugs in it again. Then as suggested I'll either remove the upstream O2 sensor or disconnect the CAT and try starting it. If that doesn't work I'm not sure what to try next. I was thinking of testing the Throttle Position Sensor to make sure all is good there. Any other suggestions? I'll continue to report back after each new attempt.

-BH-

OneBadTurboCRV

Why not just reset the timing? It's rather quick to do but I beg you, please stop worrying about any other mark correlation, haha! Anyways, it should still start even if it is off a tooth, but it wouldn't be a waste of time to make it right either. The TPS wouldn't cause a no start issue; it would only affect the drivability.

Olias

The thing is that if being off by one tooth isn't causing the no start problem then essentially I HAVE to look else where, right? I'm not trying to fight what you're saying I'm just saying that my daughter has been without her car for almost a month now and getting her to work, picking up her daughter from school blah-blah-blah just isn't working out real well if ya know what I mean. So I just want to figure out why it won't start, get her back on the road and then get the timing belt, water pump, etc., replaced. Make sense?

Hate to show my stupidity again but what exactly do you mean by "re-setting" the timing? If you're talking about taking care of the one tooth difference that means I'd have to a complete Timing belt job and I'm not quite confident in doing that yet. Plus, I don't have any of the replacement belts etc., yet to put back on and my understanding is you DON'T want to re-use any of them, especially if that Timing Belt is stretched out, right? I'm probably just not understanding what you're saying because I'd love to get the timing right and know I don't have to worry about that aspect as I continue on. So If you can explain what you mean by that I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

-BH-

OneBadTurboCRV

Yes, I mean reset the camshafts and retension the belt. It should only be a 30 minute job start to finish and that is if you had the valve cover on. If you don't feel comfortable then I understand, but we don't know the problem yet, and the problem could have been created by the exhaust cam being ~10.5* advanced. Reusing parts isn't a wise idea, but all you would be doing is making the mechanical timing right to eliminate that variable. Not trying to beat you up, just want to see you get it fixed. If I didn't then I wouldn't be helping you.

Olias

Okay, gotcha. Man I really appreciate your patience. If we are talking about loosing the tensioner enough to slip just the timing belt off the two cams so I can realign the one cam and then retension etc., I didn't think that was possible to do without removing ALL the other belts. Is it? I thought the lower TB cover couldn't be removed without all the other belts being removed first and removing the one engine support etc. At least that's the way it appears in the videos I've seen. If it is possible then yes by all means it would be stupid not to do it and it would also give kind of be a dry run for a total belt replacement later. I'll get back to you after I attempt this. Thanks again.

-BH-

OneBadTurboCRV

Yes it is totally possible to do without removing anything other than the valve cover and MAYBE the very top outwards timing cover just to make things easier. If you look under the engine mount there is a little rubber plug you remove. This gives you access to the timing belt tensioner bolt.

Olias

Ah maaaan....really? I just removed the Power Steering Pump, Power Steering thing right above the 1st Engine mount bolt so I could get to that bolt, then removed the top engine mount, the middle?? TB cover (since the top part of the TB cover is actually part of the valve cover so I consider it the middle part of the cover) and was juuust about to try and remove the bottom part of the cover to get to the tensioner and spring when I saw your last post. Well, ok, no harm done because now I'm even more familiar with the area and feeling a little more confident about what goes where etc., so when it comes time to actually replace all those belts I'll know what to loosen up AND they will have already been broken free once. Now I just need to find this rubber plug that you mentioned.....


-BH-

Olias

Hmmm...dang it, I can't find the rubber plug you referred to. And you say it's on the bottom of the engine, right? Wouldn't it be on the side of the engine where all the belts are? After taking the tire off and removing the plastic splash guard I now only have access to the Crank Shaft Nut and one other nut but no holes or access to where the tensioner bolt would/should be. That part of the wheel well is one solid piece of frame. Any more hints or a link to a site that might show this rubber plug in a pic? Thanks

-BH-

Edit: I see now that you said under the engine "mount"...not the engine. Sorry. So, directly under the engine mount I see two bolts that basically holds on the bottom part of the TB cover. Is this what you are talking about?

OneBadTurboCRV

Part #2 - the hole is there, I promise.

Honda Automotive Parts

Olias

Found it!! Holy cow....would have never found that without your help. Thing is, okay now I can access that bolt but I still can't get my hands on the tensioner pulley to push it down (to loosen Timing Belt) without still taking off that bottom half of the cover. Or can I? Hate to be a simpleton...what am I missing? Thanks

-BH-

OneBadTurboCRV

You don't push it down... you just pull up on the belt after loosening the bolt. You are starting to scare me lol...

Olias

LOL...ya, I scare myself sometimes. Sorry about that. Thing is I've never been in this area before, never done a timing belt replacement or adjustment and I know things need to be pretty precise so if I have ANY doubt about something or don't clearly understand what to do next I'm going to ask 1st. Like Measuring twice and cutting once. Anyway...

I've been watching a couple videos and in particular following an old post (found here: Timing Belt & Water Pump How To - Dial up Beware!!!!!! ) that someone went to great detail to include tons of pictures and on the particular area that I am dealing with now he says....

"I replaced the timing belt tension pulley and the spring, so I just removed them to remove the belt. If you are not doing that, it is best to remove the spring, loosen the tension pulley bolt, slide it as far down as it will go and tighten the bolt back up. Then replace the spring (needle nose pliers work well). It is difficult to get the tension pulley fully down without removing the spring."

I realize I'm not replacing the belt or tensioner at this point but I assumed the procedure would be the same whether I am replacing the tensioner or just trying to loosen it up to get enough slack to move the belt over on cog. I certainly can't remove the tensioner spring without that lower cover being removed so I figured just loosening the tensioner bolt wasn't going to be enough. Sorry for all the long posts and tons of questions I just like to be 100% sure.

So, if just loosening that bolt will give me enough slack to basically rotate the belt a tiny bit I'm assuming there is a correct way and wrong way to do it. Meaning do I go right to left and get the belt set properly on the Intake cam gear and stretch/pull it over to the left (exhaust cam) and then tighten up the tensioner or do I need to keep walking/shifting the belt around the various pulleys until I'm back at the tensioner and then tighten it up? I know, here we go again having to hold my hand and draw big pretty pictures so the simpleton gets it. HaHa. I surely do appreciate it though. Thanks

-BH-

OneBadTurboCRV

It is absolutely NOT normal practice to remove the tensioner spring. You only need to back it off enough so it slides freely. There are many ways to do things but I personally route the belt starting in this order:

1.) Crankshaft Timing Gear
2.) Exhaust Cam Gear
3.) Intake Cam Gear
4.) Water Pump Pulley
5.) Tensioner Pulley

That's the formal answer anyways. It's easier to have belt on everything but camshafts. Pull up on water pump side while holding the exhaust cam side. Slip the belt over the exhaust cam first while holding it near the intake cam. Pull up rather firm and slide it over the intake cam. Barely snug the tensioner bokt and then back it off 1/2 a turn or so. Rotate engine CCW 3 teeth or so and torque tensioner bolt. Rotate engine over and verify all marks line up correctly.

So basically you already set up for the easiest method (IMO). The reason for doing the exhaust cam first is if you don't and you try to rotate the engine CCW it will have to draw up slack if you get what I am saying. You also don't want ANY slack between the two cam gears. Everything after the intake cam essentially doesn't matter (figuratively speaking ) so focus on the main three components.

I understand the desire to cut twice and measure once... errr uhhh I mean... But there were times I cut it three times and it was still too short???