91civicEX

B series Vs D series

WARNING: LONG *** READ. NO WHINNERS


Disclaimer: assuming car had no engine or ecu at all. and all work was done yourself. with own tools. this is the minimum to get each engine running in a 88-91 civic

B series
full b16 swap
mounts
axels
linkage

2000-3000 dollars later you have a car with an engine that wont pass smog you have no clue how many miles are actually on it. and the motor is swapped in so much it is practically stock


D series (assuming car had no engine at first so itll be on the same level as B series) running obd0 to save money.

D16z6 longblock. 300
(from personal experience, i paid 150 for the short and 150 for the head)

Si tranny and new clutch and stock flywheel -200
also from exp.

axels. rebuilt from kragen -150

ecu pm6- 40

random parts that may be missing- 100

conservative estimates.
ok so now you have a b series civic with 2-3k invested running low 15s
and you have a d series civic with 790 invested running low 16s high 15's
both engines have been beat on about the same amount and have the same amount of wear and tear. the b16 with "30,000" miles was raped for those miles while the z6 was also.


ok the difference betwen the b series and d series swaps was 1210. go ahead double check i used a calculator. now with that 1210 we can easily turbocharge or supercharge the d16.

both owners are happy with their cars. the boosted d series is slightly faster but that doesnt matter cause the b16 has more driveability.

one day both engines throw the #4 rod. D series because of over boosting and B series because the person who had it in before in JDM land liked to warm it up kamikaze style (7k for 30sec or until warm) . both drivers were not prepared and have no money at all for repairs. so the d series guy trades his turbo kit for a nice header and $900 he pulls the motor and rips it apart. the head tranny oilpan, and clutch are salvageable but the block is toast. he throws it in the dumpster behind his house and borrows a bike to get around for a while.

the B series owner is fucked. he wants to stay b series desperately so he starts parting out his interior because he doesnt use it anyway. luckily its and si and the interior minus the drivers seat fetches 500. hes a happy guy. so he pulls his engine and the same stuff is salvageable as the D. pulls the head off and the tranny off. takes out the water pump oil pump and some other misc B series stuff and that he sells for 50. the block he keeps in his backyard "just in case" since they are so expensive.

so now both drivers are at point A1/2 and they start lookin for parts to get their cars back on the road. the D series guy decides there is no point in vtec while hes boosted so he sells the z6 head for 100. the d series guy finds a sweet deal for a D16a6 with no ecu tranny or oil pan with an aftermarket clutch for 270 he picks it up the same day and drives it home. too cheap for u? check it out https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=638320

ok the b series guy has 550 and needs a shortblock. he goes to nippon motors cause he cant find anyone sellin a b series close to him and orders the engine only for 595. he tells them about all the bad luck hes had and how the D series beat him so they ship it to him for free. he now owes his dad 45 dollars. the longblock arrives and he is anxious to get it goin again so he swaps his tranny, manifolds and dizzy to the longblock nippon sent and starts it up. it has a few quirks but it runs and hes back in the game. he sells the b16 head to some kid doing an Ls/vtec for 200. now hes got 155 and a runnin car.

D series guy decides that he wants to rebuild the d16 before he puts it in his car so he sends the shortblock out to a shop to get rebuilt. this sets him back 500. so now D series guy has a rebuilt shortblock a stock head with many miles and $230. he decides he wants the head rebuilt also. so he gets it ported and polished and a 3 angle valve job. i dont know how much this costs so well say he is now broke. the shop that rebuilt the engine gave him all oem gaskets (personal experience) so he puts the engine together and starts it up. this thing runs clean and now its time to break it in.

a couple months pass an the cars stay the same. B series has most of his quirks worked out and the D series guy is havin fun with his rebuilt si motor that can breath a little better. they go to the track and the D runs mid 15's while the B runs high 14s still.

months go by and both guys get jobs that pay 200 every pay period(different lengths for the sake of the story). also smog is due for both cars in 6 months. the D series guy is a little nervous about smog but does not even take of his header. the B series guy is already in full search of an illegal smog station. a couple months later they have both forgotten about smog and started modding their cars with their new income. both have 800 dollars.

The D series guy gets his smog letter a few months before his reg expires and decides to take the chance. he raises his car to stock height and gets his mom to drive it to the smog place. they take a quick peak in the engine bay and question her about the header. she bought it like that from the dealer and has never opened the hood before so they let it slide. the rebuilt engine passes with flying colors. the d series guy now has 750

B series goes to smog his car. he too asks his mom to drive it there and the car looks exactly the same as the d series car. same BS happens and the car goes on the dyno. B series is on the cell phone with his mom yellin to know how his car is doing. his mom clicks on him. the JDM engine fails miserably because his nox is too high
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=756227. he finally finds a place that will give him a fake certificate but he had to miss a week of work and it cost him 200 dollars.

so now d series guy has 1150 and he is ready to buy some goodies for his car. he gets a turbo kit shipped to his house for 875 https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=714970 with the 275 he has left he buys some brand new 310cc injectors. his car is boosting 8 pounds with very little tunning and it is running great with only 6000 miles on the engine. he has 2 years to make the most of this setup before the next smog. people ask him how hes so fast and when he pops the hood they ooh and aaah is this dohc they ask looking at the valve cover? why is it so fast they say as they burn themselves on the turbo. D series guy is back in the high 13s low 14s and hes happy. he keeps workin and savin money for his dream car. a B series hatch done right.

B series guy is a mess. with his 600 he bought an cheap package deal intake header and exhaust he swear he can feel it pull harder on the low end. he probably gained 10-15 horsepower. he is too scared to go above the speed limit because he makes so much noise and he is paranoid of getting pulled over and sent to the ref. one day he is flooring it in first and as he passes a street he glares in the rear view mirror for police activity. he takes his stock shifter with worn out bushings and puts it into 3rd gently because he is saving his 2nd gear syncrho. B series trannys are bank u know.

while D series guy is zippin around town and beating on any B series he can find.
they finally go to the races one day. the "quirks" of the B series guy's motor have become more noticeable. the car has been hesitating a bit when he floors it and the other day it almost didnt start. B series writes it off to the 02 sensors being backwards and continues with life.. As D series approaches b series at the races he is initially turned down. "you can hang with the big bad B" said the b series. "ill do more than hang spat out the D series driver". as both drivers lined up D series blew off a few times into B series window. this made B series so nervous he proceded to rev his engine past vtec and right near the rev limiter. this did sound nice but the tach was not even representing within a couple k rpm what the b series was reving at. The B series guy did know his motor so he got ready to launch by using his ear to keep the rpms at 3.7753567k which he found to be the perfect launch rpm after a couple burnouts in the school parking lot. so B series ran his rpm to 3500 to get ready to launch. D series spooled his turbo and slipped his high performance clutch. B series had to let off the gas to allow his 30k mile clutch to grab. as both cars took off it was close since D series could not stop spinning. but the race was decided as soon as D series hit 2nd gear. B series was already halfway through third on his close ratio tranny and was falling behind. his Mad tyte 3rd gear vtec had failed him. as he took it to redline in 3rd to his surprise he started to slow down. the pedal was at WOT but the dreaded dash lights were on. Battery and Check Engine. as he coasted to a stop his car bucked a few times and the tachometer shot up to 3k like it was tryin its hardest to move the car but couldnt.. as D series rolled by to see what happened and maybe help out (D series parent had invested in a plus membership at AAA so he got 4 free tows a year, he was on his last one but he would help a civic out. even if it was a B series.) B series simply repelied "you have proven to me that D series is by far cheaper faster and easier to build then B series. thank you for opening my eyes to the great world that is SOHC." to this the surprised D said "Hey, You wanna trade?"


no actuall engines were blown up in this story. it is crazy early in the morning so i cannot tell if this story makes sense much less if its good or bad. so give me some feedback and correct my figures if you want. b series prices were more or less estimates. i think the D series costs i have got pretty much dead on except for the headwork


btw this was originally gonna be a post in the whats better zc or vtec but i decided to make it its own thread because it took me so long to write it. goodnight ht




Modified by 91civicLX at 4:26 AM 2/13/2004

TiggsCRX

Hehehe....Psycho! j/k. D-series, wahoo! I'm going boost a6!

LostCRX

I still love my LS to death

broncoman74

Well, I have already said I'm sticking with my stock d16a6. I was going to have it totally rebuilt this winter with stronger internals and a ported and polished head. It was going to hopefully get supercharged next year, But my plans are on hold for maybe another year or two since I am going to buy the two family house I am living in. I love my car, But a permanent place to live(Investment) is a little more important. The b series are cool, But so is my D series

keebler65

cant b-series motors take more boost than a d-series, assuming both motors are stock? not to start a debate, just asking.

Superhatch

D series power! My experiences with B vs. D is that for the amount of money you spend on a B. You can have a D thats just about as fast, or faster....and a couple of spares

-Jake

haggar

Just all depends on the deals you find..

I paid $1400 for my LS swap setup.. of course, it came with a rusty CRX that it was installed in, too

After selling off other parts from the CRX, I'm at about $900 investment, for a LS motor(It blows 185 psi on all cylinders, and looks brand new inside), trans, mounts, integra radiator, rear discs, axles, shift linkage, wire harness, ECU, the whole deal.

But the part availability out here in Michigan is a lot different than SoCal.

Of course, we don't have to do ANY smog checks on our cars, either


My 89 CRX I got with no motor and trans, my 90 CRX came with the LS motor, and my 91 STD Hatch was an STD with a crappy 4 speed.

If I had any started with any decent 5 speed trannys in any of the cars, and a D series other than a 200,000 mile 70hp d15, well, I might have ended up with a D-series, too.

Can't wait for the snow to melt, this bitch is getting boost!!

mafioso102

The issue here is that your arguement is based off of cost constraints. "D is better than B ***for the money***" I dont think this is an arguement, but if someone has the money to boost and maintain a b-series...i firmly believe that this is the better route.

therealciviczc

How about this....

I just bought a complete 1992 Integra LS with 65,000 original miles for $450 (plus some delivery charges because it was hit in the front end).

B series
full B18A with low miles
axels
linkage
ECU
Trans
throttle Cable

mounts will be + $250

I've got $700 in my swap. Sell the rear trailing arms for $175, Cluster for around $50, Tail lights for around $50. I'm back to around $450 for the complete deal and I'm already easily running faster than a Z6, A6, or ZC stock with probably realistically less miles (probably around 15.0 in a Civic). Buy that same D series Greddy kit for around $1200, put it on the B18 (has been done many mane times) and since the B series will take a hell of a lot more boost than a D, you're probably going to be running about 1 full second faster than a ZC or Z6 with the same turbo kit and you have way more reliablility.

Should the B18 blow up, you can get a B18A from a junkyard for around $400 pretty easily. Actually a place near where I live sells B18 motors for $259 all day long.

The bottom line is that it comes down to preference. I am not doing what I posted above because I found a friend who really needs the B18 motor for his car and I already have a turbocharged ZC. I love the D series motor, but I get sick of the debate as though it is actually a question with a correct answer. It is all a matter of what each person wants. This isn't something with a right or wrong answer.

UNDER PRESSURE

Thank god I live in Arizona where my B16 will pass with flying colors.

EfC5J1

That is a great story. very inspiring, but i think that i will stay with my c5. my car also passes with those same flying colors in utah. doesnt really matter though, cause i could pass a 1936 john deer where i work. ha ha.

B18C5-EH2

Story is a bit far-fetched.

You're assuming that the B16A will blow up, which is kind of silly. Also you can get lower mileage, much better condition SOHC VTEC Zc engines for roughly $500.00-$750.00 depending on where you live, so that'd be a better option thatn a tired D16Z6 IMO.

Boosting a single cam on a tight budget is WAY more likely to result in a blown engine rather than a bolt-ons B16A.

I have first-hand experience with a few different engine set-ups so I can offer you up some realistic views.

I've owned a B18C1, B16A2 (still got it in a 1992 Si hatch), B18C5 (still got it in a 1992 CX), D16Z6, and a semi-built 11:1CR D16A6 (still in my 1990 STD hatch) so I know what each runs like on a daily basis.

The B16A2 dyno'd 143whp with 102ft-lbs. of torque. I'm sure it'll pull high 14's in the 1/4 in my area.

My old D16Z6 with only mods being an intake ran 15.6 in my old stock 1992 Si with full interior minus spare. Never dyno'd it, but it was probably good for roughly 110whp or so with 100ft-lbs. of torque with just the AEM intake.

My semi-built 11:1Cr D16A6 with the stock head, cam, and airbox will probably make about 115whp or so. Maybe it will surprise me, but my 2150-2200lb. full interior STd hatch *feels* like a mid 15 second car.

I probably spent more like $900.00 to rebuild it in just parts alone because i bought all new pistons, rings, wrist pins, bearings, t-belt, waterpump, gaskets, etc. from Honda and Acura.

I also built a custom Si/Zc gear's tranny with all new bearings too for like $150.00 in parts.

I did all the labor myself at the shop I work at, and let me tell you it takes some time and patience and GOOD tools to do the job right.

All of your listing, etc. was with the assumption that Joe Blow knows how to build an engine AND that he has the necessary tools and time to do so.

You also did not take into account the cost of machine shop fees which are necessary for a GOOD build. Boring, honing, milling the head, maybe even the block, pressing pistons onto rods, etc. all cost money to the tune of maybe $100.00 or more.

You also never took into account that many people who try to build an engine **** them up somehow from the bottom end smoking up to just being completely wrong and having a rod bearing spin, etc.

Swapping in a JDM engine with a start-up or even a 1 month or more warranty is a lot more guaranteed than a Shadetree engine build.

I'm fortunate that I did everything right and could afford to do so time and money wise. the result is an engine that does not use one drop of oil, never smokes, runs awesome as ****, and gets roughly 340 miles to a 11.9 gallon tank on the highway. I took this car 720 miles roundtrip on a road trip out of state and it handled 5000rpm (85mph or so) for hours on end.

Not everyone is this fortunate.

What's the bottom line? What IS my point?

When hybriding or building engines there are a shitload of "what-ifs" and if you try to mod accordingly you'll simply need to leave your car stock.

temp

he is also assuming that you cannot pass smog with a JDM engine which is not true, you can get them reffed in cali no problem

kid-honda

iTrader: (2)

Look in my sig
Stock D
Turbo D
All Motor B
D or B I dont care I just like working on hondas.

virginia_dude

And its also clear he is highly biased. What is best all depends on what your buget is and what you want to achieve.

I ran a DOHC ZC for years, loved it, now I am moving on to a B16A1, hope I like it even better.

Both are far superior to the standard US offerings as far as engines go.

91civicEX

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> You're assuming that the B16A will blow up, which is kind of silly</TD></TR></TABLE> it may be a little far stretched but it was EARLY in the morning and i wanted to blow up some engines, and give the story an interesting turn. the d16 could have lasted too. i just wanted to blow them up to set them at the same starting point.

also i did include the machine shop fees. i will find out if i quoted a GOOD build in about a week because thats the price i talked about with the machinist at a reputable shop for a shortblock rebuild.

[<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91civicLX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
D series guy decides that he wants to rebuild the d16 before he puts it in his car so he sends the shortblock out to a shop to get rebuilt. this sets him back 500.....he decides he wants the head rebuilt also. so he gets it ported and polished and a 3 angle valve job. i dont know how much this costs so well say he is now broke.</TD></TR></TABLE>

the main thing i am really uncomfortable about is not knowing the history of the engine at all when it comes from japan. i guess most people recieve decent motors but you never know how they drive b16s over there. just pretend how you would drive it if you only wanted it to last 30k miles at the most. but then again most people who swap out d16z6's for the bigger B series usually rape the **** out of their D series before they pull it out. The parts market (used parts) is a lot larger and cheaper for D series and you cannot argue with that (not even if your cousin's brother knows a guy who got a B16 swap for 500 dollars.)


thats why i gave the story a happy ending and one everyone can agree with

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91civicLX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> D series guy is back in the high 13s low 14s and hes happy. he keeps workin and savin money for his dream car. a B series hatch done right.
</TD></TR></TABLE>


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91civicLX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> B series simply repelied "you have proven to me that D series is by far cheaper faster and easier to build then B series. thank you for opening my eyes to the great world that is SOHC." to this the surprised D said "Hey, You wanna trade?"</TD></TR></TABLE>

i assumed that the average joe would build this engine because machine shop costs for both of the engines should be similar (B might be more expensive?) so i just cut em out. also if you noticed none of these guys bought oil or anything for the engine

and i am a little biased towards D series because i currently own one and the d series character was based on me, but with an SC instead of turbo. I also would like to BUILD a b series because Building one with the same money as a D will net more power. the B series character was based on joe blow ricer. this story was not meant to be a true to life representation of engine building but just a little fun thing to do when i was bored and couldnt go to sleep.


the absolout BEST thing about D series is the parts availability and cheapness(sp?) of them. even if it is the only thing it has on a B series to some its more important then its downfalls. agreed?


btw: kid honda youve almost got my dream garage. but id need a sedan, hatch, crx and maybe a wagon. then i can retire

shadowboy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by therealciviczc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I love the D series motor, but I get sick of the debate as though it is actually a question with a correct answer. It is all a matter of what each person wants. This isn't something with a right or wrong answer.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

indeed.

case in point:

i have an 87 CRX HF.

everyone always tells me "go B16A"

i say "i already have an 89 integra." there's a 118HP D16 (DOHC, 16V, MPFI).

i already have a motor to swap, and ALL the parts i need for the swap (B-series in a g1 CRX = near $700 for the MOUNTS ALONE).

also.. i live in FL. B-series + g1 CRX = No A/C = bad in FL for a daily driver.

it all depends on your needs.

temp

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91civicLX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> it may be a little far stretched but it was EARLY in the morning and i wanted to blow up some engines, and give the story an interesting turn. the d16 could have lasted too. i just wanted to blow them up to set them at the same starting point.

also i did include the machine shop fees. i will find out if i quoted a GOOD build in about a week because thats the price i talked about with the machinist at a reputable shop for a shortblock rebuild.

[

the main thing i am really uncomfortable about is not knowing the history of the engine at all when it comes from japan. i guess most people recieve decent motors but you never know how they drive b16s over there. just pretend how you would drive it if you only wanted it to last 30k miles at the most. but then again most people who swap out d16z6's for the bigger B series usually rape the **** out of their D series before they pull it out. The parts market (used parts) is a lot larger and cheaper for D series and you cannot argue with that (not even if your cousin's brother knows a guy who got a B16 swap for 500 dollars.)


thats why i gave the story a happy ending and one everyone can agree with


i assumed that the average joe would build this engine because machine shop costs for both of the engines should be similar (B might be more expensive?) so i just cut em out. also if you noticed none of these guys bought oil or anything for the engine

and i am a little biased towards D series because i currently own one and the d series character was based on me, but with an SC instead of turbo. I also would like to BUILD a b series because Building one with the same money as a D will net more power. the B series character was based on joe blow ricer. this story was not meant to be a true to life representation of engine building but just a little fun thing to do when i was bored and couldnt go to sleep.


the absolout BEST thing about D series is the parts availability and cheapness(sp?) of them. even if it is the only thing it has on a B series to some its more important then its downfalls. agreed?


btw: kid honda youve almost got my dream garage. but id need a sedan, hatch, crx and maybe a wagon. then i can retire
</TD></TR></TABLE>

i find it funny that you did not address my post at all

onePOINTsix

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by haggar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course, we don't have to do ANY smog checks on our cars, either </TD></TR></TABLE>God i love that about michigan glad to see someone else from MI who like to tune hondas

michael O

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by temp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i find it funny that you did not address my post at all</TD></TR></TABLE>

A lot of people find it hard to pass their jdm engines at the smog ref. I'm not sure why these people have problems tho...

temp

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by michaelOlson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

A lot of people find it hard to pass their jdm engines at the smog ref. I'm not sure why these people have problems tho...</TD></TR></TABLE>


neither do i? its a really simple process

Malgerus

Man, you D series guys. I had a few D-series, and they were fun. They just couldn't compare to my B16 though.

It's like the old big block vs small block argument.

All I know: Once you go B series, you never go back.

raene

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr. S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Man, you D series guys. I had a few D-series, and they were fun. They just couldn't compare to my B16 though.

It's like the old big block vs small block argument.

All I know: Once you go B series, you never go back.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No doubt.

I'm not going to argue the weird points in that massive thread of d-series owner self-stroking. But let's see a D-series run 14.4 with the same mods as me. Mod for mod, B is faster, and pretty much always will be.

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by raene &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No doubt.

I'm not going to argue the weird points in that massive thread of d-series owner self-stroking. But let's see a D-series run 14.4 with the same mods as me. Mod for mod, B is faster, and pretty much always will be.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Let's see a D series with the same amount of money you have in your B series run much better than a 14.4.



The **** goes both ways guys.

Would I trade my B18C5 for a fully built D series?

Nope.

Would a fully built D series with the same amount of money as a B18C5 swap run better than my current pre-tuned best of 13.3@101mph and 13.4@103mph?

Certainly.

infinatenexus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr. S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Man, you D series guys. I had a few D-series, and they were fun. They just couldn't compare to my B16 though.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

LMAo@B-16


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr. S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's like the old big block vs small block argument.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

No that would be the H22 vs. D series debate if that was the case