SPD DMN

Hey All, first thanks for the look and sorry for the length, but this has been a lengthy issue for me and your time/help is appreciated!

Been trying to tackle this issue in a previous thread and I'm hoping someone can explain or offer their expertise in my situation. After doing lots of research, I went ahead and did some testing and hopefully someone can direct me in the right direction from here:

Motor
1996 Civic CX Hatchback
B16A1 rebuilt block (stock)
GSR head with JDM ITR cams, ITR valve train, valves gapped
Blox intake manifold, GSR throttle body, ITR AEM CAI
DC Sport 4-1 header
Stock GSR cat
Stock GSR b-pipe
Spoon n1 axleback muffler
Other misc parts are stock or reused (ie - injectors, fuel rail, fuel pump etc)
Motor only has about 300 miles on it, already had an oil change at 200 miles

Before swap
Before my swap, the temp gauge would always read 1/3 on the meter. It never got hotter or colder than that, just sat at 1/3 all the time. Only thing I had on my old d16y7 was a z6 head, y8 intake manifold, GSR AEM CAI

After swap
Since the swap, the temp gauge would always read just past the middle, about 55% on the temp gauge. It wouldn't overheat or go past that, but it woudn't really get any cooler than that either. The only drop I noticed is if I was on the freeway going 60+mph the temp might drop to 50%, but it would go back to 55% when I got off the freeway. My last thread has shown that there are plenty of people running b16 swaps with stock d-series 1/2 rads that run 1/3 on the temp gauge no problems, so there's definitely something weird and irregular

I failed emissions/smog testing here in Vancouver. I passed HC and CO, but I failed NOx:

HC Max: 0.50
HC Meas: 0.39 PASS

CO Max: 9.3200
CO Meas: 0.5255 PASS

NOx Max: 1.2400
NOx Meas: 2.1910 FAIL

I am aware that NOx is/can be caused by high combustion temps, running lean, and/or bad cooling system. So I figured I would start by seeing if it is my cooling system

Troubleshooting

Air in the coolant system - when we swapped the motor we made sure all air bubbles were out of the system, but just incase I popped the rad cap, cranked the heat and let the car idle for about 30-40 minutes. No air bubbles still

Fan - I tested the fan since I never noticed it come on. I unplugged the thermosensor and jumped it, fan came on no problem.

Thermoswitch - since the fan never came on, maybe the thermoswitch needs replacing, so I let the car idle to 55% on the temp gauge as usual, and I revved the motor at 2-3000rpm for 1-2 minutes to heat up the motor. Fan kicked in at about 60% on the temp gauge, so thermoswitch/sensor/fan/relay/fuse are all in working order

Thermostat - I then wondered if maybe my thermostat was shot or stuck. First, my motor never overheats no matter how long I let it idle in the driveway. Fan never turns on, but the upper and lower rad hose are pressurized and hot so coolant must be flowing, but I decided to take the extra step and take the thermostat out and see how my temp is effected.

No thermostat - After pulling the thermostat, I topped up the coolant and bled the system again, took another 30-40 minutes or so but i made sure there was no bubbles again, heat was cranked to full as well. Now, if I let the motor just idle it will now sit at about 60% on the temp gauge, no more no less. Again, the fan doesn't kick on unless I rev the motor and heat up the motor a bit. Both upper and lower rad hose are hot and pressurized. Now I tried jumping my fan to see what it would do...

No thermostat, fan jumped - Since the motor sits at about 60% temp gauge idled, I tried jumping the fan so it would run all the time. First thing I noticed was the upper and lower rad hose was much cooler, still warm though, but definitely cooler than when the fan was off. The hoses were still pressurized, but also not as much as before. I watched the temp gauge, and it dropped pretty quick from 60% to almost 10-15% on the temp gauge within about 2 minutes. It wouldn't get any colder, but it also never warmed up. I felt the block and it did run much cooler than when the fan was off, so the block is definitely getting cooled. I unplugged the fan and the temp would slowly rise back up to 60% and the upper and lower rad hose would get hot again and pressurized as before. The head and block would get much hotter as well.

So this is where I am right now. Still unsure if the heat is caused by something with my coolant system, or if the cooling system is fine and maybe I should start troubleshooting elsewhere that might be causing high combustion temps, which might be causing the high temps...

Anyone else have any opinions/ideas/suggestions?

TIA!!


Modified by SPD DMN at 5:06 AM 4/8/2008

SPD DMN

up

SPD DMN

no one? i know its long people but help a brotha out! TIA!

BryanM.

iTrader: (1)

That is kinda mysterious, I can only guess. I read the whole post, and I didn't see you mention that you bled the system at the bleeder valve (top rad hose near the head). Also the fact that you are using a used radiator is also suspicious. Do you know what the coolant temp is when the temp gauge is at "55%"?

BTW I am using a D-series radiator to cool my B16A. No issues 6 years of use.

SPD DMN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mcvtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That is kinda mysterious, I can only guess. I read the whole post, and I didn't see you mention that you bled the system at the bleeder valve (top rad hose near the head). .</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mine doesn't have a bleeder valve

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mcvtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also the fact that you are using a used radiator is also suspicious. Do you know what the coolant temp is when the temp gauge is at "55%"?.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well if you mean a "used radiator" as in someone elses 2nd hand one, then no its not "used" in that sense.

If you mean a "used radiator" as in reusing my old radiator instead of replacing it with a new one, then yes its a "used" radiator, but original from the factory

I'm not sure what the actual coolant's temperature is other than the stock temp gauge on the cluster.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mcvtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW I am using a D-series radiator to cool my B16A. No issues 6 years of use.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm as confused as you everyone else says the same that their stock d-series rad cools no prob. I don't think I have any issues with my cooling system, since everything is in working order. And the cooling system ACTUALLY cools, cools to the point where its cold at idle.

So my question is, if my combustion temperatures are too high, where do I begin to look?

Thanks! Back to you guys

monkeysauce

Not exactly related, but you can often reduce your NOX by retarding your timing

steadymatrock

You've said that the motor has been rebuilt with gsr head. Could be higher cr. Tuned??

Alex_G

D-series (single-core) radiators are too small to cool b-series motors(or so I've been told). Most people I know who have done d-series to b-series swaps usually upgrade to a dual core half size radiator (like the one off a 99-00 Si).

SPD DMN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by monkeysauce &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not exactly related, but you can often reduce your NOX by retarding your timing</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yea I've already tried every trick in the book to try to lower NOx with no luck I retarded the timing 5 degrees...


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by steadymatrock &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You've said that the motor has been rebuilt with gsr head. Could be higher cr. Tuned??</TD></TR></TABLE>

CR could be higher, but enough to increase temps to what I'm getting? I'm sure there's plenty of people running way higher compression pistons that are cooled fine though...

Not tuned, running stock b16 program on chipped p28


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Alex_G &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">D-series (single-core) radiators are too small to cool b-series motors(or so I've been told). Most people I know who have done d-series to b-series swaps usually upgrade to a dual core half size radiator (like the one off a 99-00 Si). </TD></TR></TABLE>

That was my first impression that the single core d-series rads arent sufficient, so I made a previous post and it seems plenty of people are running b16/b18/boosted setups on stock d-series 1/2 rads with no cooling issues...

I know lean mixtures could cause high temps, but to these measures?

GiT LaO'd

I have had a stock radiator cool my GSR powered hatch when I had it without a hitch...When I wrecked my car, I had to get a replacement radiator and it was for a D-Series and never had an issue...

I only had a problem with the fan switch because the wiring was corroded and got that fixed and voila...

So I don't know bout you but good luck...

dubzz24

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPD DMN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That was my first impression that the single core d-series rads arent sufficient, so I made a previous post and it seems plenty of people are running b16/b18/boosted setups on stock d-series 1/2 rads with no cooling issues...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey, another Vancouver dude

OK, here's my logic... Once the car is up to operating temp, the coolant temp is directly controlled by the thermostat. Your car warms up to XX degrees, them bam the thermostat opens, cold coolant flows, and the thermostat closes once the temps drop and the cycle repeats to maintain your operating temperature.

Sounds to me like the thermost just opens later than the D one did. One thing you can do is put both the thermostats in a pot of water, bring it to a boil, and see what temperature they open at.

FWIW I also have the stock 1/2 rad in my B16 swapped Del Sol with no problems.

SPD DMN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dubzz24 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Hey, another Vancouver dude

OK, here's my logic... Once the car is up to operating temp, the coolant temp is directly controlled by the thermostat. Your car warms up to XX degrees, them bam the thermostat opens, cold coolant flows, and the thermostat closes once the temps drop and the cycle repeats to maintain your operating temperature.

Sounds to me like the thermost just opens later than the D one did. One thing you can do is put both the thermostats in a pot of water, bring it to a boil, and see what temperature they open at.

FWIW I also have the stock 1/2 rad in my B16 swapped Del Sol with no problems. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Vancity

I've thought about that logic before, and it seems my thermo is working properly but like you said at a higher temp.

Everyone that Ive asked about b16 + dseries 1/2 rad, and everyone has normal temps, so this can't be "normal" for my motor. I think I can rule out the cooling system causing the high temps, and start looking elsewhere for the cause.

Like I mentioned before, I can't pass NOx, but HC and CO are fine. So there must be something related between my irregular high water temps, and the fact that I am failing NOx, which is caused from high combustion temperatures.

Anyone have any ideas where to look now, other than the cooling system?

Thanks everyone I appreciate your help during this ordeal...

roycivic92

feed more gas to the cylinder. maybe a fpr will help.

SPD DMN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by roycivic92 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">feed more gas to the cylinder. maybe a fpr will help.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey roycivic92, I was thinking of starting here as well... I'm wondering if I may be running a bit lean causing my high temps/NOx

I'll probably grab a fuel pressure gauge and fuel pressure regulator and fiddle with the pressure. I read stock b16 should run about 35-41psi disconnected? Should I run a bit higher since I have mods?

Anything else anyone would advise me to do on top of this?

BryanM.

iTrader: (1)

TTT 'cause it's a weird problem

SPD DMN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mcvtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">TTT 'cause it's a weird problem</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thnx mcvtec...

Just bought a fuel pressure gauge and fuel pressure regulator... just popped the gauge in and the cars warming up as I type... will measure psi before then swap in the regulator and measure after...

Hopefully someone sees this in the meantime... any advise on the fuel pressure I should be running? Take in mind I have mods thnx!

fastrc2

does this moter have egr? if so, egr is a great way to kill nox in its tracks. if you have egr, physically check the path for carbon blockages. other wise, the coolant overheating is pointing to a radiator that cant put out enough heat, this style radiator may do the job, but this exact one has lost its ability to cool efficiently. get another radiator. try it all over again.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

the reason you failed for NOX is most likely because the combustion chambers are too hot. It's either running too lean....or the engine is making too much power for the cooling system. Or the engine is overheating for some other reason. (you knew this)

What mixture ratio of coolant/water do you have in there?

Who did the tuning/what ECU are you using?

It does look like you're running slightly lean by those emissions numbers. You have a lot of induction side mods. You have to have the fuel delivery to back it up.

SPD DMN

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fastrc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">does this moter have egr?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No EGR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fastrc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">other wise, the coolant overheating is pointing to a radiator that cant put out enough heat, this style radiator may do the job, but this exact one has lost its ability to cool efficiently. get another radiator. try it all over again.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was hoping this wasn't the issue but its coming to the point where I might as well change that too... I'll consider the rad the next option, however, I did go through emissions with the thermo out and the fan jumped and the temperatures were nice and cool, around 1/4 on the temp gauge so I dunno if that will help me too much on NOx.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the reason you failed for NOX is most likely because the combustion chambers are too hot. It's either running too lean....or the engine is making too much power for the cooling system. Or the engine is overheating for some other reason. (you knew this) </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm currently trying to remedy the high combustion temps issue. I popped a fpr and fpg in and set the pressure back to 41 psi. Now the question is what psi should I run? Would this be sufficient to lower NOx?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What mixture ratio of coolant/water do you have in there? </TD></TR></TABLE>

50/50 honda coolant

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Who did the tuning/what ECU are you using? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Brother did the tuning. Running chipped p28 on stock b16 program

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It does look like you're running slightly lean by those emissions numbers. You have a lot of induction side mods. You have to have the fuel delivery to back it up. </TD></TR></TABLE>

As above, do you recommend any particular fuel pressure for my particular setup? Anything else you can recommend? I was going to change the fuel filter and run some fuel injector cleaner through the system... ye or ne?

Thnx everyone!

nokia87

try using a 99-00 si radiator,look at ur temperature sensor,it might be fulty.

reaction360

unless your radiator is shitty or clogged, I dont think its that. We've done many 300-400whp boosted b's on the stick civic radiator no problem, including my own car back in the day. Also a few 11.5:1 motors as well.

Is the thermostat one that you purchased? or the one that came in the motor? They come in different heat settings. Some like to change em for different climates.

Also, have you done a compression or leak down test? Make sure the headgasket is sealing properly.

ho bag

Ok first off you need to try bleeding that coolant system again. Leaving the cap off and letting it idle wont cut it, trust me i know ive had that issue before.

Remove the cap and let it idle till warm, then start to rev it up a little and hold it there until the rad fans kicks in. let is drop for a min then do it again. Keep doing it till the rad fan kick in 3 times and top off the fluid after each time it kicks in then put the cap back on.

Also are you using the coolant temp sensor that came on the motor or the one off your old motor? The switch may be presenting a different value to the cluster then the old gauge.

If your combustion temps are too high try adding a psi or 2 of fuel preasure to see if that helps your afr and lowers temps a little.

fmrprojects

look at your fan switch on the back of the coolant housing and your ect sensor. looks like your fan might be kicking on oo late. and use a lower temp thermostat

B serious

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPD DMN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No EGR

I was hoping this wasn't the issue but its coming to the point where I might as well change that too... I'll consider the rad the next option, however, I did go through emissions with the thermo out and the fan jumped and the temperatures were nice and cool, around 1/4 on the temp gauge so I dunno if that will help me too much on NOx.


I'm currently trying to remedy the high combustion temps issue. I popped a fpr and fpg in and set the pressure back to 41 psi. Now the question is what psi should I run? Would this be sufficient to lower NOx?

50/50 honda coolant

Brother did the tuning. Running chipped p28 on stock b16 program

As above, do you recommend any particular fuel pressure for my particular setup? Anything else you can recommend? I was going to change the fuel filter and run some fuel injector cleaner through the system... ye or ne?

Thnx everyone!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would nix the fuel injector cleaner. It's a waste of time/money. If you're going to clean your injectors, take them apart and clean them with some kind of rubber and sensor safe cleaner....like TB cleaner.

I really wouldn't be able to recommend a general FPR PSI accurately. You'd have to get your car logged and re-tune it. The B16 program may not cut it anymore.

Maybe the radiator has blockage in front of it?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nokia87 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">try using a 99-00 si radiator,look at ur temperature sensor,it might be fulty.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The 99-00 Si radiator is about the same size as a regular D series. B series dont really run all that hot. They dont have much of a reason to. Aluminum block, open deck, all motor, lots of oil, etc. They run relatively cool.

The OP's B16A may be running a little hot due to the induction side mods for air and lack of fuel mods.

OP: have you checked the cam/spark timing? If the timing is overly advanced, it can make the engine run hot as well.

This could also be as simple as just having a bad CTS or temp sender. Test the CTS or try replacing it with a known good one. Are there any kinks or collapses in your coolant hoses or are they blocked or clogged?

Did you say the thermostat was replaced? I think I saw earlier you said you even tried removing the thermostat and it still ran hot? That could be indicative of a bad CTS or blocked radiator.

SPD DMN

Wow... firstly thanks everyone for replying and helping me out in this ordeal... here we go

It's still a 1/2 rad though. Like I mentioned before, everyone I asked about stock d-series 1/2 rads and b16 swaps all run at normal 1/3 on the temp gauge.

Temp sensor is ok, before I took the thermostat out and revved the motor for a couple minutes at 2000-3000rpm to heat up the motor. Once it got a little hotter than it usually sits at, the fan kicked on.

This is my thoughts as well... why would my radiator cool my d-series at 1/3 without an issue, but once we swap the b16 it likes to sit passed 1/2? I understand b16 is a higher compression motor... but to run that much hotter?! How come no one elses runs that hot? That's what is confusing me...

So I really really really dont think its the rad, but then again its one of the only things I havent tried replacing

Thermo came with the swapped motor, not my old d-series (i dont think you can ever reuse it?!). This was my brothers old race motor, he rebuilt the block and I built around it.

I asked him if the thermostat or water pump are bad, he said it definitely isnt either one. I would trust his word for sure. He's pretty stumped as well, but then again he doesn't live around here so he can't really troubleshoot it. He did say its prob my radiator being clogged or a piece. But then why would my old motor cool properly? He used to run a full sized fluidyne on his setup, said his heat never passed 1/3 like everyone else

Nope haven't done a compression or leak down test... prob a good idea but i need the tools

Headgasket should be fine


I'm not sure I can bleed the system any more than I already have Remember, my thermostat is removed so the coolant is consistently moving through the coolant system, so technically idling should propagate the bubbles out. However, as insurance, I did rev the motor to the point that the fan kicked on. Did it a few times actually and the fluids did drop, but not enough to top up anymore. I would probably safely say the system is bubble-less Oh yea, I have no bleeder valve either if anyone is wondering


Temp sensor is from the swapped motor yes, not from my old d-series. This should be the same temp sensor/temp switch my brother used when it was his race motor. As I mentioned above, his heat never passed 1/3, so I would assume those are fine


Before putting in the afpr, my motor was reading:

41 psi - connected vaccuum
53 psi - disconnected vaccuum

After popping in the afpr, I adjusted it to:

46 psi - connected vaccuum
56 psi - disconnected vaccuum

Didn't notice any drops in temps on the temp gauge... but the question that I care about now is, is it enough to drop NOx for me to pass?


I never liked the idea of running additives... which is why I'm shying away from doing it, especially on a mint rebuilt block Would you advise anything else to clean regarding fuel delivery (ie - fuel filter, gas lines, etc)?


I figure for a proper tune i'd have to dyno it for sure. I know generally stock b16 should be in the 35-41psi range, so I figure a few psi up should suffice for a self-tune. I'm more worried about running a smart psi to lower NOx

Anythings possible at this point Radiator is something I'd like to try replacing last since I think its the least likely to be the problem...

I retarded the spark timing originally by 2 degrees, which minimially reduced NOx. I then retarded it a total of 5 degrees, which reduced it more, but still not enough. Right now, the car is sitting at a 5 degree retard

Cam timing is pretty much on the nose:

http://thinkouthere.com/temp/Cam%20Timing.JPG


As far as I know the temp sensor does work, since it kicks the fan on just slightly passed the operating temps. I have to rev the motor for about 1-2 minutes to heat up the motor for the fan to kick on, so the temp sensor is working. I haven't tried testing with a known good sensor though, but as far as I know it worked for my brother and showed 1/3 on his temp gauge when he raced it

No kinks/collapses/wear/tear/any thing negative that I can see about any of the rad hoses.


Never replaced the thermostat, its still the one that came in the swap when my brother had it. He says its fine when I asked him about it, and from my tests above it certainly is working like it should... unless I'm tripping out

Right now the thermostat is removed, and at idle it does sit JUST slightly hotter than it would have with the thermostat in. It still wont overheat though at idle. Remember, all the tests I did on the coolant system were at idle. The fan still does kick on at the same temperature as when the thermostat was in as well. When I jump the fan and leave it permanently on, the temps will drop SIGNIFICANTLY! To the point where it will sit almost pointing to C...


So... thanks everyone again for the LOOOOOOOOOOOONG read, but lots of questions and answers to come. Thanks again everyone, we will overcome this! I will pass emissions!