jacanter

All,

I'm new to this forum so if I make any mistakes please take it easy on me.

Anyway, I'm having a problem with my 92 Accord LX, 161K miles, automatic, that 3 dealers and 2 specialists have never heard of and they have no idea what the problem might be. One dealer even stated that all they could do is throw parts at it. At least they were honest. Other than the distributor housing everything on the engine is original excluding the timing belt and water pump that were replaced at 90k. The Cap and rotor were replaced when the distributor was replace in 99. Also, I just installed a new ignition wire and spark plug wires hoping that this was the problem. No luck. The pcv valve was replaced 2 years ago.

Here's what it's doing and hopefully this will make sense. When driving on the freeway or at speeds above 50 miles an hour when you press on the accelerator slightly the engine stumbles or shakes. If you press down harder it doesn't appear to have this problem, although it's possible it's still there. Now, here are catches. It only does it when it's hot out. As far as I can tell this only happens when it's over 70-75 defgees out. I drive 17 miles to work on the freeway every day and in the morning it doesn't happen. When I go to lunch, again driving on the freeway, it doesn't happen on the way there but, after the car sits it will do it on the way back. When I leave at the end of the day this can show up right away after geeting on the freeway or it may take 4 or 5 miles to show up depening on how hot out it is.

Keep in mind that I am not getting any hesitation or any other problems when accelerating from a stop and otherwise the car runs fine.

Here is what I've tried in an effort to help figure this out.
Changed gas. I was using BP, the two specialist have told me not to use it!
Drving with the EGR vacuum line unhooked. No difference.
Driving with the gas cap removed. One specialist suggested the valve might be bad.
Power braking the car until the rpm's are above 1800. Nothing.

Otherwise the car runs very strong about the same as when I got it back in 96. It's not burning any oil and gas mileage is the same as well. I've had it in for all of it's scheduled maintence since the day I bought it as well. The 150k service was done December of last year.

Has anyone ever seen or heard of this before? Any ideas what the problem might be? I was guessing EGR ports but when I describe the problem eveyone seems to think that the car would hesitate when I accelerate from a stop.

Sorry about the long post.
Thanks
Jeff

BLKFLSH

Is the D4 dashboard light lit or blinking when you start the car in park . I would suspect the transmission computer. Machanics would have never figured out that it was my computer, if I hadn't dragged one of them out into the steaming hot parkinglot and showed him. They would park it in the relatively cool shop, and the problem would never surface unless it was hot in the car. But none of the lazy ***** would go out in the hot sun to check on my car.

P_Adams

Not having the benefit of diagnostic tools that could reach thru phone lines ( poor attempt at humor) I can only speculate.
If you are familair with the proceedure I'm about to suggest, it can be a useful tool. A Spark Plug evaluation test.
This is a test by which you drive the vehicle until you can duplicate the condition, shut off the engine, roll to a stop, pull a spark plug and read the center insulator. If the color is chalk white, it's too lean; sooted, it's too rich. Doing this is safer on a dyno, if you have access to one.
If this was a carbureted engine I would suspect a low float level, a stuck power valve or dirt in the main jet passage.
Being fuel injected, I would suspect any of the sensors which directly control the fuel enrichment curve (throttle position sensor, Map (manifold absolute pressure) sensor and possibly others).
It sounds like you're going thru a range of operation where the system momentarily leans out and then catches up with itself.
The fact that the condition occures only when really hot will require whoever works on it to make provisions to heat the components to then check for failures. Any electronics repair tech will tell you of horror stories diagnosing "thermal intermittant problems". It's ether that or start throwing parts at it .........

P

deserthonda

mmmmmm this might be a tough 1 due to the fact that it is hard to diagnose car going 50 mph ,,it is 1 of those try this and test drive..........I am assuming no chk engine lite is on....
some of my ideas.... have u ever done a 3 stage injector cleaner ,,break up all the carbon that is possibly built up. with that also a throttle body clean make sure throttle plate is not sticking ..

checked fuel filter??

have they chk injectors with noid lite make sure they all work properly... again it is hard to do while driving 50mph

the best suggestion i have is see if 1 of these shops has a snap-on or a honda diagnostic tool that they can hook up while test driving car so they can monitor all sort of stuff
I wish i could be of more help i hope that from 1 of the suggestions u will get here from all of these guys 1 will be able to fix ur car

briq4

My mom has a 98 Accord V-6 and her car did that, she now has a completely rebulit transmisison, the problem is gone. I say drive it until the tranny blows up and then get a new one. I'm betting in her car it was the torque converter failing, does the sputtering go away as soon as the rpm's jump up and the converter unlocks? And try driving at the same speed with the car in D3, and slightly accelerate does it still studder? Also if it seems to be a Engine Speed relative thing, then put the car in D3 accelerate until the car is at the same RPM as it was when it studders in D4 and try to accelerate slowly, if there is no studder it is not an engine problem. It would have to be the transmission.

I had a similar problem on my 93, turned out to be the EGR ports were clogged, but it would go completely insane not just minor studders. Hope something here helped.

briq4

P.S. as far as using the tool goes, on the 98 Accord it took until the transmission was slamming gears until the computer threw any type of code.

sauceja

Also Honda has and had a lot of problems with the automatic tranny's from 90-93 accords. Our dealership is small and we have changed many in the last decade. Doing one sometime this week or next.
Also it is hard because there is no way for honda to hook up a HDS because your car does not have the DLC (Data Link Connector) to monitor while driving. And if you do not have a MIL or your D light on then you will not pull any codes.

Another thing to try is at speed of problem. put it in neutral and try to rev up the engine a couple thousand rpm's. If there is no hesitation than possible that it is not engine related.

Good luck and wish I could work on it.

P_Adams

Gm had some similar complaints involving early TBI L4 Celebrities, they would develope a hesitate/surge at certain throttle positions. Turns out that occasionally Throttle position sensors would change from intended values through a portion of the sensors' range. Below the effected area, it would work correctly. And once past the effected area, the system worked correctly also.
It was explained that the tp sensor was no more that a variable resistor, and they would wear in the area which corresponds with the most common throttle position (cruising at 50 -60 mph). Replacing the sensor took care of it.

Remember; I suggest this only as a place you might start looking at.

P

jacanter

Ignore this. I replied to the wrong message. D'oh. I guess I only get 5 posts a day for a while so bear with me on the replies.


No it's not. If it is the transmission it is only having a problem under these conditions.




Modified by jacanter at 6:22 AM 8/20/2005

P_Adams

So, after all this, what is your complaint???

Now you're saying transmission, at first you said engine!
[QUOTE]
"Anyway, I'm having a problem with my 92 Accord LX, 161K miles, automatic, that 3 dealers and 2 specialists have never heard of and they have no idea what the problem might be. One dealer even stated that all they could do is throw parts at it. At least they were honest. Other than the distributor housing everything on the engine is original excluding the timing belt and water pump that were replaced at 90k. The Cap and rotor were replaced when the distributor was replace in 99. Also, I just installed a new ignition wire and spark plug wires hoping that this was the problem. No luck. The pcv valve was replaced 2 years ago.

Here's what it's doing and hopefully this will make sense. When driving on the freeway or at speeds above 50 miles an hour when you press on the accelerator slightly the engine stumbles or shakes. If you press down harder it doesn't appear to have this problem, although it's possible it's still there. Now, here are catches. It only does it when it's hot out. As far as I can tell this only happens when it's over 70-75 defgees out. I drive 17 miles to work on the freeway every day and in the morning it doesn't happen. When I go to lunch, again driving on the freeway, it doesn't happen on the way there but, after the car sits it will do it on the way back. When I leave at the end of the day this can show up right away after geeting on the freeway or it may take 4 or 5 miles to show up depening on how hot out it is.

What is it, noob? Everything I've mentioned is about the ENGINE (Not the transmission). Even your dealer thinks it's ENGINE related!

deserthonda

1 last thing that came to mind is a possible fault with tranny lock up system,,
try this remove the lock up solenoids they are located on tranny right on top below the lower radiator hose,there are 2 sets of solenoid, like i said u want the top ones the lower ones are the shift solenoids , once removed, clean the metal screen with carb cleaner, blow with air and reuse it,, also on the tranny there will be some oil passages visible once solenoids are out blow compressed air in there as well, replace tranny fluid and try it........

p/s pay close attention to the metal screen see if there is any metal having

jacanter

No the D4 light is not lit or blinking when I start the car. It only lights up when I put it in gear.

What exactly was your car doing?

Thanks
Jeff

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLKFLSH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is the D4 dashboard light lit or blinking when you start the car in park . I would suspect the transmission computer. Machanics would have never figured out that it was my computer, if I hadn't dragged one of them out into the steaming hot parkinglot and showed him. They would park it in the relatively cool shop, and the problem would never surface unless it was hot in the car. But none of the lazy ***** would go out in the hot sun to check on my car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

jacanter

I have read that you can tell a lot about how a car is running by looking at the spark plugs but I haven't really paid much attention to checking them. I wish I had paid more attention to the plugs the dealer removed when they did the 150k service. I might be able to do what you suggest but I'll have to get out side of Columbus to do it. If I don't I might end up as road kill! ;-) I wish I did have access to a dyno it would be a lot easier. I take it that it's important to shut the car of right as it is having problems to preserve the tips of the spark plugs.

When I was driving home yesterday I tried to pay even more attention to what the car was doing. Not easy at 70 miles an hour. Anyway, it seemed as if there was a certain range when pushing down on the accelerator that was having the problem. Not the initial part of accelerating but it showed up pretty quickly. The other thing is the car does this at any speed above 50. But what puzzles me is that I go through this range all the time while driving whether it's in the city or on the freeway. So why only at speeds above 50 mph.

Thanks
Jeff

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by P_Adams &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not having the benefit of diagnostic tools that could reach thru phone lines ( poor attempt at humor) I can only speculate.
If you are familair with the proceedure I'm about to suggest, it can be a useful tool. A Spark Plug evaluation test.
This is a test by which you drive the vehicle until you can duplicate the condition, shut off the engine, roll to a stop, pull a spark plug and read the center insulator. If the color is chalk white, it's too lean; sooted, it's too rich. Doing this is safer on a dyno, if you have access to one.
If this was a carbureted engine I would suspect a low float level, a stuck power valve or dirt in the main jet passage.
Being fuel injected, I would suspect any of the sensors which directly control the fuel enrichment curve (throttle position sensor, Map (manifold absolute pressure) sensor and possibly others).
It sounds like you're going thru a range of operation where the system momentarily leans out and then catches up with itself.
The fact that the condition occures only when really hot will require whoever works on it to make provisions to heat the components to then check for failures. Any electronics repair tech will tell you of horror stories diagnosing "thermal intermittant problems". It's ether that or start throwing parts at it .........

P</TD></TR></TABLE>

jacanter

Correct, the check engine light is not on. I wish it was that easy though. No, I never done a 3 stage injector cleaning. The only thing I've done lately is run some Techron/Chevron injector cleaner. I was reading the thread about Sea Foam but I'm very hesitant to use it! As far as I know the throttle body has never been cleaned unless the dealer has done it as part of a regular maintenance, which I doubt.

Both fuel filters were replaced December of last year. They haven't been checked since then.

No one has checked the injectors and unless I'm mistaken you can't hook an analyzer up to a 92 because they don't have one of the OBD ECU's.

I'm hoping that I'll get a suggestion that will help figure this out as well. I would really like to get a couple of more years out of the car because other than this problem, that will probably go away when it gets colder out, the car runs great.

Thanks
Jeff

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by deserthonda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">mmmmmm this might be a tough 1 due to the fact that it is hard to diagnose car going 50 mph ,,it is 1 of those try this and test drive..........I am assuming no chk engine lite is on....
some of my ideas.... have u ever done a 3 stage injector cleaner ,,break up all the carbon that is possibly built up. with that also a throttle body clean make sure throttle plate is not sticking ..

checked fuel filter??

have they chk injectors with noid lite make sure they all work properly... again it is hard to do while driving 50mph

the best suggestion i have is see if 1 of these shops has a snap-on or a honda diagnostic tool that they can hook up while test driving car so they can monitor all sort of stuff
I wish i could be of more help i hope that from 1 of the suggestions u will get here from all of these guys 1 will be able to fix ur car </TD></TR></TABLE>

jacanter

If I accelerate harder the problem does seem to go away. Some times I think that I can still feel it but that it's more rapid if you know what I mean. Sorry, everyone knows how hard it is to explain these things.

I'll try driving the car above 50 in third gear when the car is hot and see what happens. I'm reluctant to drop it in to 3rd going 70 though. Keep in mind that it doesn't matter what speed I'm going as long as I'm going at least 50 mph at a constant speed and then trying to accelerate that this happens.

Does anyone know when and under what circumstances the lockup switch kicks in? I've never need able to tell when it activates or releases. Is there an easy way to unhook it?

I would rather have it be the EGR ports than the transmission. It would be cheaper that's for sure!

Thanks
Jeff

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by briq4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My mom has a 98 Accord V-6 and her car did that, she now has a completely rebulit transmisison, the problem is gone. I say drive it until the tranny blows up and then get a new one. I'm betting in her car it was the torque converter failing, does the sputtering go away as soon as the rpm's jump up and the converter unlocks? And try driving at the same speed with the car in D3, and slightly accelerate does it still studder? Also if it seems to be a Engine Speed relative thing, then put the car in D3 accelerate until the car is at the same RPM as it was when it studders in D4 and try to accelerate slowly, if there is no studder it is not an engine problem. It would have to be the transmission.

I had a similar problem on my 93, turned out to be the EGR ports were clogged, but it would go completely insane not just minor studders. Hope something here helped. </TD></TR></TABLE>

YeuEmMaiMai

if you do try FI induction cleaning make sure you change the plugs afterwards as the detergent used is rather harsh on spark plugs. Also another trick to clean carbon out of a combustion chamber is to spray water into the intake while the engine is running using a squirt bottle. The water turns to steam and removes the carbon build up.

TPS sensor or MAF sensor may be bad. Since the TPS is a variable resistor it may have carbon buildup on it causing the problem you mention.

I doubt it is the tranny since once it is in gear it usually likes to stay there and you are not giving it enugh gas (from what is sounds like) to cause it to go down a gear.

Could be a vaccum leak. Since the distributor is on the cam, it doubt it is that.........

amckee

barely pressing on the brake pedal (not enough to engage the brakes but just enogh to engage the switches) will unlock the torque convertor. Do this while accelerating at highway speeds to determine if your problem is convertor clutch slippage. I had the same problem at a different speed range on a '92 manual transmission. The TPS is not replacable on that model . You have to buy the throttle body so I carefully cracked off the plastic that seals the coverplate on and flushed it out with methanol or isopropyl alcohol while moving the throttle plate back and forth. I sealed it up with high temp RTV and it works just fine. It didn't set a code either (before cleaning that is). IF you suspect the TPS just unplug it and drive it for a day. You will get a check engine light but will run just fine on the default setting. If your problem dissappears then it's a dead spot in the TPS. Don't forget to clear your codes after plugging it back in.

jacanter

Ok something new. I tried depressing the brake pedal slightly and the problem did not go away.

I did try downshifting the car while cruising at 50 mph where the problem starts and the problem did go away. Also, as I was getting on the freeway I kept the car in 3rd gear to see if the problem showed up around 50 mph and it did not. I'm going to test it again today. Thanks to brig4 for the suggestion. It's supposed to get up to 90. So, does this mean it's the transmission? If so, interesting that other than what it's doing it's working like the day I bought the car. If it is the tranny does anyone have any idea why I'm only have problems at 50 mph or above and why it shows up more quickly or only when it's real hot out? I'm guessing that this might be the beginning of the end. Honda may have had problems with these transmissions but getting 160K out of this one isn't bad, I think.

I did check the fluid level and it is ok and the color looks good. Maybe a little higher than the top mark. The dealer changed it when I had the 150K service done last December.

I also noticed something new yesterday that might be related. It only happened once but it may be related. After getting off the freeway I was accelerating from a stop at a very slow pace and the car was surging very slowly, say at half second intervals, right before it shifted from 3rd to 4th gear. When it shifted the problem when away. I have not been able to get this to repeat yet.

Thanks
jeff

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by amckee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">barely pressing on the brake pedal (not enough to engage the brakes but just enogh to engage the switches) will unlock the torque convertor. Do this while accelerating at highway speeds to determine if your problem is convertor clutch slippage. I had the same problem at a different speed range on a '92 manual transmission. The TPS is not replacable on that model . You have to buy the throttle body so I carefully cracked off the plastic that seals the coverplate on and flushed it out with methanol or isopropyl alcohol while moving the throttle plate back and forth. I sealed it up with high temp RTV and it works just fine. It didn't set a code either (before cleaning that is). IF you suspect the TPS just unplug it and drive it for a day. You will get a check engine light but will run just fine on the default setting. If your problem dissappears then it's a dead spot in the TPS. Don't forget to clear your codes after plugging it back in.</TD></TR></TABLE>

briq4

Hey no problem, but just to clairify, go the same RPM's as you would be doing when the problem happens in D4. i.e. say your going 60 in D4 and you slowly accelerate and the issue happens, note the RPM. Then on a road where you wouldn't have to go 60 put the car in D3 and accelerate until the RPM's are where they were doing 60 (but still in D3) and then slowly accelerate, if the problem is not there, then it could be the transmission. This way you can tell if it's RPM related or gear related. Hope this makes sense, I'm having trouble explaining myself clearly.

deserthonda

make sure tranny throttle cable is adjusted properly if a bit off you could be feeling what we call ( torque convertor hunting )...

BLKFLSH

When my computer was screwing up, it would do all kinds of crazy shifting, from gear to gear, to feeling like it was in neutral, But it would only do it when it was hot inside the car. My D4 light would stay on even when in park though.

BLKFLSH

When the lockup solinoid activates it feels like an extra shift. It will usually do this when the accelleration has evened off in high gear. I've never felt it in any other gear. Get on a smooth straight road, and you should be able to feel it.

BLKFLSH

Did you check the sensors P Adams mentioned in his first post?(TPS MAP) Don't think it's the computer if D4 light is not on continuously or blinking. Hope you find it. You can throw parts at it just like the techs can, I suppose.
Just a guessing game I guess, unless someone has a revelation.

acurarsxguy

I would second (brig4) opinion on the EGR passages being plugged. I had a stuble on my 92 accord similar to what your describing. I cleaned out the EGR passages, and now the stumble is gone. Runs great now.

Repair Link:
http://www.cybertrails.com/~pu....html

jacanter

OK, I cleaned the EGR ports today. They were clogged but not completely and they were all pretty much closed up by about the same amount. Got the engine good and warm and took it out on the freeway, still having the same problem so this rules out the EGR ports unless I missed something. There's no need to reset the ECU or anything is there? Also, on my car there are what appears to be 2 more plugs closer to the head than the EGR ports. Does anyone know what they are and do I need to clean them out as well.

Oh well on to the next thing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by acurarsxguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would second (brig4) opinion on the EGR passages being plugged. I had a stuble on my 92 accord similar to what your describing. I cleaned out the EGR passages, and now the stumble is gone. Runs great now.

Repair Link:
http://www.cybertrails.com/~pu....html</TD></TR></TABLE>