97 swagon

rebuild

heart the pistons n rods
wish my f was getting that kinda treatment lol

AFAccord

Just to be sure my math is correct, I'm posting some of my initial measurements for bearing oil clearances.

M Bore 1: 2.321"
Journal 1: 2.161"
----------------
Difference: .160"

Going by the block stamps of C3 for bearing #1, I've got one green bearing, and one yellow bearing.

Main Bearing Thickness
Blue: 2.013 - 2.010mm / 0.0793 - 0.0791
Black: 2.010 - 2.007mm / 0.0791 - 0.0790
Brown: 2.007 - 2.004mm / 0.0790 - 0.0789
Green: 2.004 - 2.001mm / 0.0789 - 0.0788
Yellow: 2.001 - 1.998mm / 0.0788 - 0.0787
Pink: 1.998 - 1.995mm / 0.0787 - 0.0785
Red: 1.995 - 1.992mm / 0.0785 - 0.0783

Green bearing: 0.0789" thick
Yellow bearing: 0.0788" thick

Together, they account for 0.1577" of the journal's diameter. What's left of .160" after subtracting .1577" is .0023" of total clearance.

Divide this by two, and I get approximately .0011" and some change of oil clearance, which is well within the .0008" - .0018" of clearance per the service manual.

Does this math look sound to you guys?


If I wanted a slightly more loose clearance of .0015", I should be able to mix one Pink bearing (~.0784" thick) with one Red bearing (~.0786" thick) for a total thickness of ~.157".

.160" total clearance
.157" bearing thickness
------
.003" / 2 = .0015" of oil clearance.

I would really appreciate some kind of confirmation that my math is correct here from someone who has experience with this...

AFAccord

On the recommendation of a friend, I chose to resurface and soften the edges of the pistons. This should allow for better air flow and flame travel for a more efficient burn, as well as reducing the potential for hot spots on the edges that can cause detonation under high loads. I took care of this today with a 120 grit flapper wheel on a Dremel, and some Scotch-brite pads. Have a look...

Taped up



Before and after



I've been double checking my ring gaps recently, and it appears they're much larger than I asked the shop to make them. (want .017" gap, but first rings are .022-.023" instead) Honestly, I don't know exactly how much of a difference this is, but .022" would put me in the 'race only nitrous/blown' setup according to the rings' spec sheet. I imagine that would cause a lot more blow-by gasses and shortened life at a minimum. I'm going to double check the gaps for the second rings this week and see how those turn out, in case I need to ask the shop about those as well.



In the mean time, here is the block as it sits now.

hondamark35

awesome!

reminds me of the condition of my block- fresh paint, sitting on the coffee table in our office.. haha.

who did your machine work? i may have a little too much taper in the bores to feel comfortable with just honing them and hoping for the best.

AFAccord

I'm going to refrain from naming the shop publicly until I get these discrepancies resolved. I need to call them this week to ask about the ring gaps. Looks like my second ring gaps are almost .034", twice what they should be. After finding this, I would really like to make sure the bores are the right size. I know they're nice and round since I went .020" over, but now I'm skeptical about my P2W clearances. Hopefully everything goes well and I can get back on track!

GhostAccord

Engine is looking good.

Did the shop have your pistons on hand to get the proper measurements for P2W clearances?

Pistons look good as well. If you want to take your DIY piston development to the next level you could polish them. Polishing is pretty much the same as putting a thermal coating on them. it helps keep the piston tops cool. Polishing the combustion chamber helps as well. Coating or polishing the combustion chamber surfaces (piston tops included) will reduce surface temps and increase the exhaust gas velocity as a lot more of the heat is maintained in the gases and carried out the exhaust ports...... Hotter gases = faster gases! The exh ports would also benefit from coating/polishing as well.

Polishing is worth the while if you have the time and patience.

AFAccord

Some bitter sweet news...

Stopped by the shop after work with the block and pistons so the machinist could double-check my measurements. Sure enough, he said they appeared to be gapped to the maximum specs by Wiseco for a blown race engine with nitrous. He remembered going over the spec sheet with me and talking about using the moderate street turbo specs. Long story short, they're going to order new rings from Race Eng where I bought the pistons, and gap them correctly for me.

I almost feel bad for the guy because the rest of this work has been so clean and detail oriented. He's also done lots of work of heads and manifolds for me in the past on my all-motor setup with no issues, and has always been very courteous and accommodating to my requests. Most of the shop's work is high-end nitrous V8's making 1,200 to 2,000hp, so I can understand where his mind might have been when he was working on my parts. Regardless, I'm glad he quickly owned up to his mistake and offered to fix it no questions asked.

Hopefully within a week or so I'll have everything back and ready to order bearings. For now, I've got my wife's summer tuition to pay, so I'll probably stick to body and interior/wiring chores over the next month or so until I get some more "play" money.

mitchk90

Awesome looking build!

AFAccord

Checking main bearing clearances today.







I plastigage'd everything twice, once parallel with the bearings, and once perpendicular. Here are the results with six yellow halves and four green halves, as well as how I'm interpreting what I found:

~.0017"


~.0016"


~.0015"


~.0015"


~.0014"


Ideally, I would like to see:
1 - .0015"
2 - .0015"
3 - .0016"
4 - .0015"
5 - .0010"

What do you guys think?

dglassmyer

I'm just not at the level to speak intelligently regarding bearing clearances but just wanted to compliment you on your work to this point.

I have a stock block f22 turbo build in the works but as soon as its done a built short block will be next.
Watching your progress is exciting and its good to see you taking the time to get things right.

Posting some of your concerns regarding bearing clearances in the FI forum may get you some better answers.

AFAccord

I appreciate the compliments sir. I do have a deadline in which all of this has to be done, but I'm trying to pace myself, purchase quality parts, and avoid silly mistakes in the process. I'm gaining a ton of knowledge by doing this, I just need a little personalized assistance from time to time to keep things moving.

I probably would have received much more technical input from the FI Forum, but I hate to start more threads. I might inquire if a moderator could move this entire thread for that reason.

AFAccord

I'm going to re-measure my P2W clearances tonight. After speaking with Wiseco about this, I think I'll need to run them a bit looser than I originally planned. I think I was a little over .0027" when I last measured, but I should be better off between .0035" and .004" for my new goals.

AFAccord

Bump for some answers re:bearing clearances.

In the FSM it shows journal #1 having a slightly looser clearance, while journal #5 is a bit tighter. Do I need to maintain these variances (ie. #3 ~.0016", #5 ~.0010") or can they all be ~.0015"? Pros/Cons? I've also heard some talk about running #1 a bit different to account for the belt tension that's placed on it?

AFAccord

Innovative 75A motor mounts shipped out yesterday.

SO.GA_SI

Most everyone will have a little different opinion on bearing clearance. For force induction H/F series motors my Minimum cleareance would be round .0018 for 1,2 & 4,5 and about .002 on 3 for the mains. Rod bearings around .002. Stock clearances are ok for stockish motors not something thats gonna see double or triple the original HP. If your planning to make more than 450 whp or so i PERSONALLY think what you have is a bit on the Tight side. Looks like a nice build though. Should be alot of fun.

digital sol

iTrader: (1)

Got any more pics of the block? Did you use high temp paint? Looks great, I'm in for this build.

AFAccord

Thanks for the info! Without the block being sleeved, I honestly don't intend to make more than 400 at the wheels, and I don't even intend to make that much on a regular basis. It would be nice to reach that on the Dyno and be tuned up to that point, but my goals are closer to 370 at high boost and 260 or so for daily driving.

.002 is exactly what Crower recommended for the rods, so I'm comfortable with that. I'm still trying to decide on the best P2W clearance, between .0035 "and .004", and do you have any input on the #5 main being tighter than the others?



I might snap a couple more tonight, but it's really not as pretty as I had hoped it would turn out. Haha I actually sprayed it with my VHT Header paint without thinking. Hopefully it will cure properly during break-in and not mess up the finish too bad. Thanks for looking!

AFAccord

I've been checking and double checking my rod journals lately for bearing size. I come up with a consistent 1.888" for the rod BE bore, and exactly 1.768" on each rod journal on the crank. This leaves me with .12" gap for bearings and oil clearance. Strangely enough, two green bearings (2 x .0590") takes up .118" of that space, leaving me exactly 2 thou oil clearance, which is exactly what I want. I'm almost skeptical how well that works out. Going to dig up my old bearings and plastigage everything this weekend to see how it looks.

New goodies! Lightly used Innovative 75A mounts. Hopefully between these and the BS delete, the car won't vibrate my teeth loose.

GhostAccord

I think she might be a touch shakier than stock.....

AFAccord

If it helps put the power to the ground without wheel hop, I think I can put up with some shaking.

AFAccord

Somehow don't think I've shared these yet. Picked them up months ago. Looking to pair them with some 11.1" Brembo blanks and SS braided hoses. Haven't chosen what pads to run just yet. Would like to paint them also, but not sure what color. It'll likely be either black or matched to whatever color I decide to paint the car.

AFAccord

Took the block back to the shop to have the P2W checked and new rings gapped. The P2W was .0025", which I've found out to be a little tight so I'm having them open it up to .004".*

In retrospect, I wish I had checked the cylinders before boring them to see if they were straight enough to be honed out for stock bore pistons with a .004" P2W gap.*The extra material (though not much) would still have been good insurance in my mind.

AFAccord

Went to the paint shop today to pick up some samples for the Accord. Left with one pint of Galaxy Gray Metallic, and one pint of Galaxy Gray with Gold Mica Pearl. If the weather holds up this weekend, I might get around to spraying my door jams with each to test them out!

Also called the machine shop, was told boring/honing is done, and they will be finishing up the rings tomorrow.

h22a2JZGTE

damn f23 FTW, this thing sounds like it could be a real monster on stock sleeves..so what do you plan on running for your intake manifold since your not gunna be using your h23 conversion? i would have loved to see that manifold still on there but i bet it would have had a flaw with boost lol

best of luck!

G23BB6/87LXI3DR

What's the News!!?
On the verge to take my block to machine shop with KS Delete, Arias Pistons, stock rods (K20a3/F23). Already decked, have all new bearings and washers by color. Think its actually same code as yours. What do think about rods, should I through down for Crower? If they still available!
This is one of the best threads I've read, maybe being bias cuz I doing almost same build, just using H22 head, S2 IM, H22 LSD, in a BB6 instead.
So let me know sup, PM me if u want to give me your # so we can talk better.
Good luck and hope your distance is only bcuz u can see the finish and u can't stop to talk.