are BOV's a waste of money?
11-13-2005, 06:58 AM
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are BOV's a waste of money?
after reading this
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.c...art=0
i am under the assumtion that BOV's are not wortht he cash in buying one, since i havent heared of any failures that were atributed to the lack of one.
anyone have any stories of turbo's failing because of compressor surge?
http://ausrotary.dntinternet.c...art=0
i am under the assumtion that BOV's are not wortht he cash in buying one, since i havent heared of any failures that were atributed to the lack of one.
anyone have any stories of turbo's failing because of compressor surge?
11-13-2005, 07:24 AM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (johnzm)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
anyone have any stories of turbo's failing because of compressor surge?</TD></TR></TABLE>
probably not cuz everyone wants one. why risk your 500+ dollar turbo on a 100 part (depending what you get)
anyone have any stories of turbo's failing because of compressor surge?</TD></TR></TABLE>
probably not cuz everyone wants one. why risk your 500+ dollar turbo on a 100 part (depending what you get)
11-13-2005, 07:45 AM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (0x64)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 0x64 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have a couple. Blowoff valve is worth the money.</TD></TR></TABLE>
care to elaborate?
one of the posts in the thread showed how a BOV equipped motor had its turbo fail, while the other participants, without a BOCV actually continued to finish the race lol
if you are talking about protecting your investment, why cant you explain HOW it protects it...
care to elaborate?
one of the posts in the thread showed how a BOV equipped motor had its turbo fail, while the other participants, without a BOCV actually continued to finish the race lol
if you are talking about protecting your investment, why cant you explain HOW it protects it...
11-13-2005, 07:47 AM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (johnzm)
One of the replies on the first page of that link johnz has a good reason for keeping a BOV. Even if the turbo was "indestructible" you have to look and see what effects the pressure buildup have on compressor fan speed. Without a BOV you will end up experiencing compressor surge and still. Running without a BOV will put your thrust bearings under a lot of stress. The worst thing that could happen is the repeated conditions of surge and stall will cause the thrust bearinng to be destroyed taking the compressor wheel and housing along with it. If you're running low boost and you're lucky, then you'll just end up having to rebuild the turbo a few thousand miles sooner.
EDIT: forgot to mention that in most cases if the compressor stall is bad enough it will take a little longer for the compressor to recover and start boosting again. in short no BOV = slightly more lag
EDIT: forgot to mention that in most cases if the compressor stall is bad enough it will take a little longer for the compressor to recover and start boosting again. in short no BOV = slightly more lag
11-13-2005, 08:33 AM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (BlueShadow)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueShadow »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One of the replies on the first page of that link johnz has a good reason for keeping a BOV. Even if the turbo was "indestructible" you have to look and see what effects the pressure buildup have on compressor fan speed. Without a BOV you will end up experiencing compressor surge and still. Running without a BOV will put your thrust bearings under a lot of stress. The worst thing that could happen is the repeated conditions of surge and stall will cause the thrust bearinng to be destroyed taking the compressor wheel and housing along with it. If you're running low boost and you're lucky, then you'll just end up having to rebuild the turbo a few thousand miles sooner.
EDIT: forgot to mention that in most cases if the compressor stall is bad enough it will take a little longer for the compressor to recover and start boosting again. in short no BOV = slightly more lag
</TD></TR></TABLE>
did you also continue reading, to notice that there were multiple cars listed in the thread that were running in excess of 40psi, none with a BOV, and none of them have had any turbo failes of any kind..
EDIT: forgot to mention that in most cases if the compressor stall is bad enough it will take a little longer for the compressor to recover and start boosting again. in short no BOV = slightly more lag
</TD></TR></TABLE>
did you also continue reading, to notice that there were multiple cars listed in the thread that were running in excess of 40psi, none with a BOV, and none of them have had any turbo failes of any kind..
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11-13-2005, 08:37 AM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (johnzm)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
did you also continue reading, to notice that there were multiple cars listed in the thread that were running in excess of 40psi, none with a BOV, and none of them have had any turbo failes of any kind..</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes I saw that, but are those race cars running off-the-shelf Garrett, Precision or Turbonetics turbos? or do they have bearing systems/thrust washers that have the same material as those off-the-shelf turbos? I'm guessing no, but to get a firm answer I can IM TheShodan or e-mail some of the engineers at Garrett/Honeywell...I'm sure they can tell us what hte internal differences are betwen shelf turbos and Indy spec turbos.
did you also continue reading, to notice that there were multiple cars listed in the thread that were running in excess of 40psi, none with a BOV, and none of them have had any turbo failes of any kind..</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes I saw that, but are those race cars running off-the-shelf Garrett, Precision or Turbonetics turbos? or do they have bearing systems/thrust washers that have the same material as those off-the-shelf turbos? I'm guessing no, but to get a firm answer I can IM TheShodan or e-mail some of the engineers at Garrett/Honeywell...I'm sure they can tell us what hte internal differences are betwen shelf turbos and Indy spec turbos.
11-13-2005, 09:06 AM
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Re: (Soon_2b_evil)
you really think im arguing this tobe right or wrong.
sorry my turbo'd car came with a recirc from the factory, and its going to stay that way.
i just thought it would be nice to see what other people have to offer in PROOF that its damaging the turbo running without one, and thats something that nobody has been able to show so far..
no offense, but all of HT is a bandwagon, and since the BOV is a very LARGE bandwagon. everyone thats on it believes that compressor surge is damaging to the turbo, but cant EVER find any proof of failed parts due to it.
its one of those things that you were force fed, and just came to the (wrong) answer that its a required part to every turbo kit..
sorry my turbo'd car came with a recirc from the factory, and its going to stay that way.
i just thought it would be nice to see what other people have to offer in PROOF that its damaging the turbo running without one, and thats something that nobody has been able to show so far..
no offense, but all of HT is a bandwagon, and since the BOV is a very LARGE bandwagon. everyone thats on it believes that compressor surge is damaging to the turbo, but cant EVER find any proof of failed parts due to it.
its one of those things that you were force fed, and just came to the (wrong) answer that its a required part to every turbo kit..
11-13-2005, 09:11 AM
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Re: (johnzm)
if bov's do nothing then why would car manufactures put them on the car? wouldnt it be just a waste of money and materials? I dont think thousands of engineers in the car manufacturing world are all wrong...
11-13-2005, 09:23 AM
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Re: (Soccerking3000)
just think about it...it makes sense lol if you pressurize the intake and suddenly shut the TB closed where is the pressure going to go? back through the turbo...even if it doesnt hurt it physically its definately not going to help performance
11-13-2005, 09:26 AM
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Re: (johnzm)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
no offense, but all of HT is a bandwagon, and since the BOV is a very LARGE bandwagon. everyone thats on it believes that compressor surge is damaging to the turbo, but cant EVER find any proof of failed parts due to it.
its one of those things that you were force fed, and just came to the (wrong) answer that its a required part to every turbo kit..
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well you cant argue with the fact that compressor surge is a result of not running a BOV. From there all you have to do is research for yourself what compressor surge/stall does to the airflow in the charge piping. There are enough companies like Garrett, Borg-Warner, Turbonetics and Precision out there that will say pretty much the same thing. They will also say that compressor surge will shorten the life span of the thrust bearing, and in extreme cases of compressor surge the thrust bearing will be destroyed. But in most cases all you will see is premature thrust bearing wear and that's something that isn't easy to detect.
Before you start a "no BOV" bandwagon you have to show definate proof there there is no damage or increased wear that can come from running with no BOV. Seeing stats on race cars running with no BOV's doesn't really help. For all you know the internals are completely custom built to withstand the high thrust loads they will encounter while in a race. For the average person about all you have for options is standard journal bearings and ball bearings (which are supposed to be able to withstand higher thrust loads). But like I said you should be fine at low boost without a BOV. But if you wanna be a guinea pig that runs their turbo daily driver at high boost with no BOV, then go ahead.
BTW I sent an e-mail to BorgWarner and hopefully they can give me some info on what kind of materials or differences there are between Indy spec turbos and regular turbos available to the public.
no offense, but all of HT is a bandwagon, and since the BOV is a very LARGE bandwagon. everyone thats on it believes that compressor surge is damaging to the turbo, but cant EVER find any proof of failed parts due to it.
its one of those things that you were force fed, and just came to the (wrong) answer that its a required part to every turbo kit..
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well you cant argue with the fact that compressor surge is a result of not running a BOV. From there all you have to do is research for yourself what compressor surge/stall does to the airflow in the charge piping. There are enough companies like Garrett, Borg-Warner, Turbonetics and Precision out there that will say pretty much the same thing. They will also say that compressor surge will shorten the life span of the thrust bearing, and in extreme cases of compressor surge the thrust bearing will be destroyed. But in most cases all you will see is premature thrust bearing wear and that's something that isn't easy to detect.
Before you start a "no BOV" bandwagon you have to show definate proof there there is no damage or increased wear that can come from running with no BOV. Seeing stats on race cars running with no BOV's doesn't really help. For all you know the internals are completely custom built to withstand the high thrust loads they will encounter while in a race. For the average person about all you have for options is standard journal bearings and ball bearings (which are supposed to be able to withstand higher thrust loads). But like I said you should be fine at low boost without a BOV. But if you wanna be a guinea pig that runs their turbo daily driver at high boost with no BOV, then go ahead.
BTW I sent an e-mail to BorgWarner and hopefully they can give me some info on what kind of materials or differences there are between Indy spec turbos and regular turbos available to the public.
11-13-2005, 09:36 AM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (johnzm)
$50 for a blow off valve isnt that big of a deal..
But I know some turbo cars that dont come with blow off valves and they have over 100k miles on them and still run..Look at the old holden calais vl turbo cars..they have nissan rb20 motors in them with t28 turbos and have no blow off valve and there's no problem with the turbos besides regular wear and tear
But I know some turbo cars that dont come with blow off valves and they have over 100k miles on them and still run..Look at the old holden calais vl turbo cars..they have nissan rb20 motors in them with t28 turbos and have no blow off valve and there's no problem with the turbos besides regular wear and tear
11-13-2005, 10:17 AM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (Mr.speaker)
Call up the guys at PTE and ask them how many turbos they have come in from race cars that need rebuilding because they got trashed by not having a BOV. Jose @ Forced-Inductions.com told me their turbos for tractor pulls usually only last 2-3 passes, they spin them to the max and they cannot run BOV's as none are strong enough to not leak at the boost levels they run, and they are destroyed by compressor surge. Another thing to think about, would the OEM put bypass valves on factory turbo cars if there was no proof that running without one caused damage to your turbos? We're talking about companies that will source out a 50 cent part to some other company that will make it for 40 cents to save cash and maximize profit. They wouldn't do it if it weren't worthwhile.
11-13-2005, 10:40 AM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (tokes1320)
i dunno how many of u have read that thread i posted.
here ill save u some time...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RICE RACING »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its all down to he said she said. I am watching a video now of the 1987 F1 GP in Adelaide seen it 100+ times now and know every single technical spec of every car down to what grade of material they used in their pistons
Every single Garrett equiped and KKK equiped (single and twin turbo) car ran no BOV ! 2800+gear changes most at full boost 4.0 to 4.2 bar absolute, gauge boost pressure 43psi+ and not one of them snaps shafts or anything close to it. Same for the cars in the previous years race. The turbos used in this era are the same of what is available today to the common person
Turbo failure due to no BOV is bullshit, it technically can not happen ! I challenge anyone to show me the numbers behind how this can happen. I will save you the effort, you cant
You want to hear turbo flutter, you need to listen to one of these old school videos, sometimes you can just hear it over the exhaust especially on entry to a braking zone or in mid corner
Blades bending back and shafts snapping is rubbish, air is very very light stuff and it physically cannot do any of this no matter how good peoples imagination is. Dont confuse this with a NOS or fuel system backfire which can blow a plenum apart, though they dynamics of this phenomenon has nothing at all to do with not running a BOV.
History on turbo race machines proves it.
Every International Group C sports car to 1991 NO BOV
Every F1 car from 1979 to 1988 NO BOV
Every Indy car from 1970 to NOW NO BOV
DJR Group A Sierra till its last races NO BOV
There are **** loads of examples across many different classes running every type of turbo you care to mention running at the thermal/mechanical limits for massive durations of time (24hr races) at very very high pressure ratios never ever experience failures of the type some people on this board and BOV maufacturers mention is trash publications.
I have a text (published in 1989) written by racecar engineering going into massive detail about only 1000bhp turbo F1 engines and NO WHERE do they mention the phenomenon that some people go on about. No where in history in motorsport do you see such failures due to not running a BOV, WHY ? Because its bullshit ! Plain and Simple
You want a current example from Japan (the home of the BOV), find a down load of Rod Millens Toyota Tacoma truck (runs 1000bhp 4 cyl single turbo) and it runs NO BOV, turbo flutter in all its glory
In the end it comes down to your own personal comfort level and personal feelings on a subject, if you cant or dont want to run just a WG then you need a BOV, but please dont come up with rubbish statements that not running one cause failures, history (current and past) and physics proves that no such things can happen.
They are a falicy of the highest order and people selling them are perpetuating lies by stating that they should be mandatory in high boost high HP applications. Complete and utter rubbish !!!!!
Motor sports history shows it was never an issue (need to run a BOV), its only pissy little companies now that are trying to make a buck from add on sales that are the source of most of the bullshit stories spread over the internet and trash magazines.
.</TD></TR></TABLE>
seriously, read some of these links, they are really eye opening...
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/....html
kinda makes you wonder.... dude has some pretty good points.
here ill save u some time...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RICE RACING »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its all down to he said she said. I am watching a video now of the 1987 F1 GP in Adelaide seen it 100+ times now and know every single technical spec of every car down to what grade of material they used in their pistons
Every single Garrett equiped and KKK equiped (single and twin turbo) car ran no BOV ! 2800+gear changes most at full boost 4.0 to 4.2 bar absolute, gauge boost pressure 43psi+ and not one of them snaps shafts or anything close to it. Same for the cars in the previous years race. The turbos used in this era are the same of what is available today to the common person
Turbo failure due to no BOV is bullshit, it technically can not happen ! I challenge anyone to show me the numbers behind how this can happen. I will save you the effort, you cant
You want to hear turbo flutter, you need to listen to one of these old school videos, sometimes you can just hear it over the exhaust especially on entry to a braking zone or in mid corner
Blades bending back and shafts snapping is rubbish, air is very very light stuff and it physically cannot do any of this no matter how good peoples imagination is. Dont confuse this with a NOS or fuel system backfire which can blow a plenum apart, though they dynamics of this phenomenon has nothing at all to do with not running a BOV.
History on turbo race machines proves it.
Every International Group C sports car to 1991 NO BOV
Every F1 car from 1979 to 1988 NO BOV
Every Indy car from 1970 to NOW NO BOV
DJR Group A Sierra till its last races NO BOV
There are **** loads of examples across many different classes running every type of turbo you care to mention running at the thermal/mechanical limits for massive durations of time (24hr races) at very very high pressure ratios never ever experience failures of the type some people on this board and BOV maufacturers mention is trash publications.
I have a text (published in 1989) written by racecar engineering going into massive detail about only 1000bhp turbo F1 engines and NO WHERE do they mention the phenomenon that some people go on about. No where in history in motorsport do you see such failures due to not running a BOV, WHY ? Because its bullshit ! Plain and Simple
You want a current example from Japan (the home of the BOV), find a down load of Rod Millens Toyota Tacoma truck (runs 1000bhp 4 cyl single turbo) and it runs NO BOV, turbo flutter in all its glory
In the end it comes down to your own personal comfort level and personal feelings on a subject, if you cant or dont want to run just a WG then you need a BOV, but please dont come up with rubbish statements that not running one cause failures, history (current and past) and physics proves that no such things can happen.
They are a falicy of the highest order and people selling them are perpetuating lies by stating that they should be mandatory in high boost high HP applications. Complete and utter rubbish !!!!!
Motor sports history shows it was never an issue (need to run a BOV), its only pissy little companies now that are trying to make a buck from add on sales that are the source of most of the bullshit stories spread over the internet and trash magazines.
.</TD></TR></TABLE>
seriously, read some of these links, they are really eye opening...
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/....html
kinda makes you wonder.... dude has some pretty good points.
11-13-2005, 11:24 AM
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#1 if someone took that much time to write that big of an article on BOV's they need to get out. to me that article is 2nd hand bs, and hes just trying to go against the grain
no a bov isnt necessary, in fact you can get a recirculatory system so the excess boost is fed back into the motor or spend money on a wastegate. But a bov is just added insurance incase of surge or stuff like that.
no a bov isnt necessary, in fact you can get a recirculatory system so the excess boost is fed back into the motor or spend money on a wastegate. But a bov is just added insurance incase of surge or stuff like that.
11-13-2005, 01:46 PM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (SE-Rawkus)
Zane always causing contriversy, 
Don't you know the BOV was first intreduced in the first stages of the ricer, there was no other way they could signify to others they had a TURBO, so when one relized that by using the excess boost and shooting it though a whistle that it made a cool noise they had what they were looking for.
Don't you know the BOV was first intreduced in the first stages of the ricer, there was no other way they could signify to others they had a TURBO, so when one relized that by using the excess boost and shooting it though a whistle that it made a cool noise they had what they were looking for.
11-13-2005, 02:34 PM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (BlueLude94)
....umm just take off the BOV and listen to the compressor surge. IMO that sounds to me like a turbo screaming in pain
11-13-2005, 02:42 PM
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Re: are BOV's a waste of money? (_gurusan_)
there is an excellent section of the book "Maximum Boost" by corky bell, he goes into why having a pressure relief valve is a very good thing. Ill see if i cant get some excerpts up.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">care to elaborate?
one of the posts in the thread showed how a BOV equipped motor had its turbo fail, while the other participants, without a BOCV actually continued to finish the race lol
if you are talking about protecting your investment, why cant you explain HOW it protects it...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can you explain how it doesnt?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">care to elaborate?
one of the posts in the thread showed how a BOV equipped motor had its turbo fail, while the other participants, without a BOCV actually continued to finish the race lol
if you are talking about protecting your investment, why cant you explain HOW it protects it...
</TD></TR></TABLE>Can you explain how it doesnt?
11-13-2005, 04:12 PM
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Re: (ExcessivePerformance)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ExcessivePerformance »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Diesels don't run BOV's and they push anywhere from 40-100psi. What gives?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not a diesel expert but somebody in the link johnzm posted said that diesels dont have a vacuum system. So that's why they dont need one.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dunno how many of u have read that thread i posted.
here ill save u some time...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dude you need to stop quoting some other guy on the internet as your source for all this. On top of that purpose built race cares is no comparison for turbo cars built by average enthusiasts. What do you know about your source? is he an engineer that works for NASA, Honeywell or any of the bg name turbo companies? All your source is doing is saying how this and that is complete bullshit and all HE has for proof is that race cars dont run BOVs, or Diesels dont run BOVs. That's all I've seen him do...I haven't seen him post a reason why there are no turbo failures when you run no BOV. I posted a few reasons why compressor surge would be bad for the turbos. But nothing you or Rice Racing posted has been able to counter that. I dont doubt what he says...my theory is the Indy guys and all the pro race cars he is talking about have "built" turbos. By that I mean a lot of the internals aren't off the shelf parts, but parts specifically made to their specs. Your guy says he has all the tech specs including types of materials used, etc. If he knows all that and he posted it somewhere in that thread then let us know where he says that.
Like I said though, if these pro racers have found a way to deal with compressor surge doesn't mean that compressor surge doesn't do any damage. It could just mean that they have built their turbos to withstand a lot of the stress you see from compressor surge.
I'm not a diesel expert but somebody in the link johnzm posted said that diesels dont have a vacuum system. So that's why they dont need one.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dunno how many of u have read that thread i posted.
here ill save u some time...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dude you need to stop quoting some other guy on the internet as your source for all this. On top of that purpose built race cares is no comparison for turbo cars built by average enthusiasts. What do you know about your source? is he an engineer that works for NASA, Honeywell or any of the bg name turbo companies? All your source is doing is saying how this and that is complete bullshit and all HE has for proof is that race cars dont run BOVs, or Diesels dont run BOVs. That's all I've seen him do...I haven't seen him post a reason why there are no turbo failures when you run no BOV. I posted a few reasons why compressor surge would be bad for the turbos. But nothing you or Rice Racing posted has been able to counter that. I dont doubt what he says...my theory is the Indy guys and all the pro race cars he is talking about have "built" turbos. By that I mean a lot of the internals aren't off the shelf parts, but parts specifically made to their specs. Your guy says he has all the tech specs including types of materials used, etc. If he knows all that and he posted it somewhere in that thread then let us know where he says that.
Like I said though, if these pro racers have found a way to deal with compressor surge doesn't mean that compressor surge doesn't do any damage. It could just mean that they have built their turbos to withstand a lot of the stress you see from compressor surge.