PyroProblem

Actually it's more like .003"
.0014 doubled is .0028"

I'll be using ACL HX bearings in my build also. They're the only bearing that gave me the clearance I was looking for.

No such thing as being over picky on your engine blueprinting. One little mistake can ruin everything and when you work and save for years to build something Badass, the extra time to ensure everything is perfect makes total sense!

PyroProblem

Diameter.
Fixed in original post. Thanks. Good catch.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

yeah i have searched over and over and over for different clearance setups. the trouble is, everyone says something opposite of the last guy, on guy says build it loose, the next guy says middle of the road. one guy says he measured it and he never actually did, he measured with only plasti gauge. i enjoy threads like this, with people that seem to know their stuff, that have done it before themselves and know first hand. and guys that have done it right as well. im looking for something to last a long time. ill be making under 500 whp pump gas for now. Im open to hearing experienced first hand opinions. if you guys say im building this thing way to tight, i trust your judgement and experience. this needs to be a reliable, street engine on pump gas, that can handle it when i need to embarrass some rich guy in a vette lol. i found this article that was pretty good : http://dsportmag.com/the-cars/projec...uild-part-1/2/
-i called the machine shop and told them what was going on . i am going to drop it off monday to have them double check the main bores. they will hone if needed, and will advise if it needs bored, if it does, im going to go ARP main studs at that time. why not right? He was also very familiar with honda bearings, laskeys chart and equation, etc etc. he also said to bring in my dial bore gauge and mics and will check them against their masters. he said their dial bore gauge he uses is a $3500 tool.
-i searched quick some line boring stuff, and honestly its making me nervous. im reading of all kinds of stuff that oil pumps dont line up and stuff gets all wonky. if this things as far off as im measuring i may be up sh** creek.
-im going to torque the mains that are measuring a negative number. mainly #1 if i remember correct(my papers are not in front of me), and just see if the crank feels like it wants to spin at all. if in fact its that tight, the crank should not move at all. this will settle it for sure.
-for the rods im sitting at .0021 with green bearings. would it be wise to step to the next one up and tighten that clearance up a bit? or leave them alone?
- pyro: mains your saying my .0016 is satisfactory? or should i step to a thinner bearing?
-even with my solid measurements im getting now, with the rods for example, plugging them in laskeys formula is not working or equaling out. no clue why, but its not. dont know what i am doing wrong when it comes to this equation.

UPDATE: I just set the crank in om green bearings and snugged up 1 and 5 main caps by hand. Crank wont budge. So it is in fact too tight. I removed the crank and torqued all caps in without bearings. Did just a quick inside diameter measurement of all the bores again and they are in fact approx .0030 tighter than number 2 and 3 that specd out okay previously. Can a line bore take care of that without drastically effecting other items in the bottom end?

PyroProblem

I believe "blackeg" has built a few b series of which I think he turbocharged.
I just looked for my build sheet to see what I have down for clearances but I can't seem to find it. Garage needs cleaned badly.

My opinion:
.0016" is great for a stock bottom end with not too much added hp (heat).
.0018 to .0020 is great for high HP or high rpm blocks.
Anywhere around there I believe is good for 90% of performance Honda builds. I'm pretty sure my block is set to these specs as well with #3 main being just a hair bigger. If I find my build sheets later, I'll verify.

Yes I believe a line bore and hone will correct your issue.
If the main bore needs to be increased by .003, that's only .0015 per side which is pretty minimal. There's some slack in the oil pump and I don't believe .0015" will be enough to affect it. When I last checked mine, my pump slid on the dowel pins and didn't bind on the crank at all and it's been line honed before. When you install the oil pump, you will be able to feel and see if the oil pump binds.
This is also a recommended step with doing Chevy LS engines. You slide the oil pump on and check with feeler gauges that it's not binding on the cam and centered before torquing it down.
Ask your machinist what he thinks. It sounds like he knows what the deal is with Honda's which is a very good thing!

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Yeah the machinist seem pretty good. Except that I specifically asked that this be checked last time it was there getting bored out. Obviously they did not. But they are decent people so we shall see. They are not cheap by any means, but I dont mind paying foe quality work as long as it is just that, quality. Im a diesel tech for a living and I work on peoples equipment as if it were mine, and I have high expectations that other people in this industry should as well. That being said they are also going to true up my cylinder head. They are the only ones local to me with the equipment to put a polished like surface on the heads. Ill keep everyone up to date. Will a hone correct this or is a bore in order? Only aksing because Ide like to get a head start on order main studs if this thing is going to need bored.

PyroProblem

Hopefully they do a good job. I've paid top dollar for machine work with unsatisfactory results. Pretty much why I started checking my own stuff before and after the machine shop.
I'm not sure when the line hone needs to become a line bore. I always assumed a hone only changes things a couple ten thousandths and anything more than a few ten thousandths, it got a bore.
Good question for a machinist.
Good work ethic ya got. I'm the same way. **** has to be damn near perfect before I let it go.
Anywho, I'd go ahead and get the studs so the machine shop has them. They'll probably need them I'm sure for anything done to the mains.

Good luck!

PyroProblem

Talk to them in their own lingo so they know your not some dumbass Honda kid off the street.
Ask technical questions and make them explain everything. Its kinda their job and they should be willing to go over any and all machining and measurement questions you have. Hopefully they'll realize how critical you are and they better not screw anything up because you are gonna recheck their work.

TracerAcer2.2L

Sub'd love the info in this new forum. This will greatly help me down the road (if I can ever make good money again). Pyro with the solid info as always, thanks for basically giving us a "how-to" on this

PyroProblem

Anytime

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

so a few things i have been thinking about, figured i would post up and see what you guys think.
-i was just sitting here thinking about the machine shop line boring my engine and such, and i realized that when i got the engine back from them after they bored it and stuff, the main caps were all facing the wrong direction. never thought about it until right now because i just popped them off, cleaned everything and began my blue print process(yes i had the caps facing the correct direction for my work). this doesnt sit well with me, even though they seem knowledgeable on honda products, im thinking i better clarify some things with them prior to any more work being done. just dont want to come across as a douche bag know it all.
-the crank i am using is a good, low mileage virgin crank, i have the complete engine i pulled it from. I am not looking to open a can of worms with this question so lets try to keep it to facts and first hand experience: should i have this thing balanced? micro polished? both? none? my honest intentions were to not do either. i believe that oem low mileage good condition may be better off than human hands that have the potential for error. i spoke with a local shop that has a great reputation for assembling honda engines, and they do not balance anything short of just weighing the components. they told me to run a good damper and i will have no issues. this was my intentions, but now that my taking things back to the machine shop i figured i would ask some experienced people what their thoughts were on the cranks. i do have a ATI street super damper. due to ef chassis clearances, i did not go with the race unit.
-i do have a digital scale that weighs in grams to .001. i did weigh my pistons,rings, and HD wrist pins as an assembly, per cylinder and they were all the same(as far as my scale reads)
-i did weigh my rods as well. i did not weigh the ends separately, but i weighed the entire rod and compared, they were once again all the same using my scale.
-i have been reading countless threads, articles, etc etc on crank balancing and micro polishing. seems to come down to pure opinion and preference. We have had good info and knowledge in this thread thus far, so i figured i would go ahead and see what the thoughts were for this particular setup. once again, i believe with anything like engines, body work, etc, it seems like most OEM things are wonderful until people get their grubby hands on it and than things go wrong, that is why so far i have not done anything with the crank. its been stored in my basement, standing up and soaked in oil to prevent any rusting.

TracerAcer2.2L

If you are using different rods or pistons other that the ones that came with the virgin crank, your bottom end is now unbalanced. Theres no two ways about it really.

It is a personal preference on whether to balance or not. The fact is that a thrown together unbalanced build may be reliable for a good while. Then again, it may not. This is why people thought that the h23 crankshaft was inferior to the h22: swap in an h23 crank and people would frequently spin bearings. The fact is it's not inferior at all....just unbalanced now that you've put it in another engine.


Maybe pyro will chime in on micropolishing

PyroProblem

They machined the main bores with the caps installed backwards?!?!
I take back what i said about them sounding like they know what's going on. That IMO is an unacceptable mistake. I'd bring it up to them and see what they say.
If they say don't worry about it and it'll be fine, ask for a refund and run away.
If they offer to fix it for free, take them up on it, Cross your fingers that they do it correctly, and then run away.

I'm curious if your main bores that were too small change if you swap the maincaps back incorrectly like it was returned to you and presumably machined.

The 2 factory cranks I've had balanced barely needed anything done. It looked like they just barely touched it with a die grinder.
I weigh each component individually, match each piston to the lightest piston and each rod to the lightest rod. Same with wrist pins however I've found wrist pins are much more closely matched than rods and piston. I wouldn't worry about weighing past .1 grams. When the engines running, oil is splashed all around anyways so it's kinda pointless to balance any better than .1 gram.

Micropolishing the journals I think isn't a bad idea, although nothing should ever come into contact with it besides oil, so I can see both sides opinions.
A good crank damper like you have is probably more beneficial than having the crank balanced. Honda like most Japanese car companies by build a nice well balanced engine from the factory.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

let me clarify: i am taking the block to get line bored tomorrow. im speaking of the first time i dropped it off at the machine shop. i requested they inspected the block prior to any work being done, verify it and the sleeve job in general was in good working order. after that, they had the green light to bore it out, set piston to wall clearance, set my ring gaps,they were supposed to verify/check the line bore at this time as well, etc. when i brought it home and put it on the engine stand, i noticed the caps were all pointing towards the flywheel. everything in my manuals and books, youtube videos etc show the caps arrows facing the crank pulley side, or pointing towards #1 cylinder. correct me if im wrong. just never really registered in my brain until i was sitting here going through everything ive done so far and what else i need to do, and a big light bulb went off in my head, more light a huge flood light, so i was just merely stating that either they didnt know what they were doing or it was an honest mistake when they just snugged the caps down to give me the motor back. either way, i blatantly marked the bottom of the block with a paint pen labeling which direction the caps point this time, just so they dont get it wrong when they bore them.

sorry if my post was confusing, sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain and i do not explain things clearly that sounded clear in my head hahaha. either way, my ARP main studs will be here tomorrow and im dropping the block off to them after work to have it line bored with the new main studs.

as far as the crank goes: am i making a mistake that will jeopardize my reliability or longevity of my build by leaving the crank as it sits? its not that i am trying to cheap out, if i need to micropolish and balance i will pay for it, no problems. but i dont want to pay 200 bucks for something that is really meaningless or at least very minimal effect. most places wont charge less money if the crank is "barely out" and nothing really needs done. they are going to charge my a** either way and just tell me it needed it, i know how shops work. so if it comes recommended, i don't mind doing it, but im not going to waste money if the effects are minimal to nothing. i mean the way i see it, they are just balancing the crank by itself anyway. so me changing the pistons and rods really doesnt effect their balance job because they are not attached when they do the balancing. so if my pistons/rod assemblies check out weight wise, and hondas cranks are less than 1 gram out, generally speaking, is that 1 gram at 8500-9k going to cause failure? if so ill do it. like i stated before, i believe in doing things right, once. just seems like when people discuss honda cranks the jury is split 50/50. once again thanks for everyones input. i like to hear what everyone thinks, good or bad.

PyroProblem

Ohh. I gotcha...Im easily confused at times lol..
I think youll be fine without the crankshaft balance and micro-polish. Stock virgin blocks are pushed to 500 Hp on a regular basis these days. Honda cranks are balanced pretty well from the factory from what ive seen.

TracerAcer2.2L

Pretty sure the machines that balance cranks, have inputs for the rod and piston weights that will be attached as well....I could be wrong, or maybe it's only the good machines.

From Shawn (Rosko):

"Balancing. Very important. This should be a MUST on any motor you build, its just common sense. The misconception is that the H22 crank is balanced from the factory but the H23 is not. They are in fact both balanced from the factory, but only for their intended use. It doesnt matter because anytime you are mixing and matching parts you are changing that dynamic and it should be rebalanced accordingly. Its not that expensive, around $150 and is cheap insurance compared to a blown motor. I’ve done my share of stupid things over the years and have learned the hard way that balancing is a key ingrediant to a succesful engine build."

Maybe it's just H series that need it

PyroProblem

From what I understand because it's 4 cylinder the crankshaft itself is balanced separately from pistons and rods. I don't think it's practical or realistic or even may be possible to balance the crankshaft with the rods and pistons installed. As two Pistons go up two Pistons are coming down so they effectively cancel each other out in that aspect.
So they spin the crankshaft and balance it dynamically (moving) just like a tire. They will take material off the counterweights by drilling holes or grinding little.
The rods and pistons are balanced staticly. Matching the weights together as close as possible to minimize internal vibration.
Every crank should be balanced to some degree from the factory, hence those holes that are drilled into the counter weights.
Then a good damper and you should be pretty good.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Good information. I did watch a video on rotating assembly balancing. It was on a v8 crank amd they had attatchment weights for the pistons and rods. I believe pyro might be right correct in the static weight balancing of pistons and rods and then they do the crank by itself. We shall see. Ill ask them and see what they say.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

So heres a quick update: I took my block, arp main studs, and my mics and dial bore gauge. What they told me was they duplicated my complaint, part of it is my own dumb fault. Here I was using arp lube on oem bolts. Honda calls for oil. Big difference. I should have known this being that I assemble engines at work and its always specified what lubricant the OEM wants used. My fault. They said my main bores were out of round for what ever reason. Thwy also said my mics were 8 thousandths off from their standard. So I gave them my crank and decided to have them mic and notate all the crank journals.
- they just called me today to notify me that they cannot line bore or hone my block. Evidently the tool they used to use was worn enough it would fit in honda mains. They recently replaced this device ( they said the name of the tool but I forget) and the new unit is too large to fit in the mains. So im forced to go somewhere else. Unfortunatly I do not know anyone local to do the job. There is one other place but I would not trust them with crayon and a coloring book. All the other machine shops seem to be old school chevy inspired which is great but apples to oranges. So here I sit, 750 bucks into machine work so far for a block I cant assemble and no machine shop I know of to finish it. Just another hurdle. Should have bought a damn shortblock package done from evans tuning or someone alike. Starting to lose patience and hope to be straight up honest. I called 2 local reputable tuner shops to see who they recommend: one wont return my call. The other wont disclose who they use because im not paying them to do the motor. Sweet.

Fishy_hondaman

i was gona suggest getting it sleeved if you cant find a block honer but it already is

TracerAcer2.2L

That bites....I'm assuming shipping a short block to someone is pretty expesive

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

If I had to guess it would be about 100 bucks one way to ship. Plus the machine work.

Fishy_hondaman

Plus a crate or whatever, if you really cant find a local biz get her shipped so u can start driving it, u got a lsd in ur trans?

Ill be doing fwd drifting on corners on boost **** gets pretty fun

PyroProblem

For the cost of shipping the block to be corrected, I would look for another core to build. I don't know where you're located, but I'm sure you could find a good used block locally, no?
It's frustrating no doubt. Especially since the local machine shops aren't capable... Can't do much of anything without a competent machine shop.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Another block build is out of the question. I do not have 1500 bucks to have another block sleeved. I have a spare known good b16 that my crank came from, but once again, i dont have 1500 more to sink into sleeves. I have money set aside for other parts of the build. chad from cbrd speed factory was awesome and returned my call. They build high end mitsubishi and porsche stuff. He said the only person they trust any engine machining with is a guy that works at a company call IAG in maryland. He is emailing me his contact information, and I may need to take a 1/2 day off work and run the block down. Starting over is not really an option at this point.

-no lsd in trans. Sometime down the road but as of now I have better things to spend 1k bucks on.

PyroProblem

Oh yeah. I forgot it was sleeves. Nevermind.
Good luck.