Apex2801

Hello Everyone, I'm in process of building a B20 non-Vtec for my road racing 93 EG hatchback. This car is not a street car, track only, trailered only.
The main guidance I'm looking for is with Cam Shafts and Header selection. After reviewing in car video from an event this summer the engine spends most of the time pulling from about 4000 RPM up to low 7000 RPM the old D16Z engine that is. Therefore the main build focus is to get as much torque/hp in the 4000-7500 RPM sweep. On few occasions will the engine spin above 7500 RPM.

So far this is where the build is. B20Z from a 2000 CRV. Block machined for 84.5mm YCP pistons , King Motorsports bearings, ARP rod and main bolts along with ARP head studs will have to calculate compression ration after build is completed but should be in the 11.5:1 to 12:1 range. Cylinder head very little polish work by myself, just cleaned up the worse casting marks, machine shop 5 angle valve seat cut, valves cut to match, surface milled. All other components are Original stock items.

Have a SK2 clone intake manifold, 70mm throttle body, and SK2 cam gears. ECU is Hondata S300 , 93 or 94 octane fuel.

Cams I've considered are just the obvious ones, BC0022 (stage3) and the Crower403 & 404 cams.

I've many hours reading through threads here on HT and have learned a lot however I was not able to find specific information on a build for my purposes.

I realize the tuning process will have some impact on the output curve. I also believe making the smartest choices in components will help to produce the desired results.

Thanks in advance for all feedback

spAdam

iTrader: (1)

We have very similar engines. I also need to make a decision on cams and or install and tune the 403s I have sitting in a box.

I think 7500 rpm is a good rev target for your intended use, and for durability. I don't really care for the idea of revving these heads way out, the rocker design makes me nervous. The thin cylinder walls are not confidence inspiring either.

You might want to consider a less aggressive pair of cams. Crower 402 are intended to build torque in the range that you are considering. You may be able to shift the torque peak down the rev range on the 403s through cam timing, but those are pretty big cams and the the low end is going to start getting doggy. 404s are a drag cam and are not likely to perform well in your application. Use steel retainers, not titanium. Rocket sella a set of springs with a much more favorable seat pressure, try to avoid gnarly valve springs as these heads are prone to valve seat recession. More spring than you need is too much in any application.

Same case with the manifold. Consider modifying a stock b16a2 or a3 manifold to fit on your head. The SK2 wants to be on a more high strung engine. The b16a manifold is much more appropriate for your application.

Do a rotating assembly balance while everything is apart. Add extra crankcase evacuation, the stock setup is not great. That's all I can think of at the moment

Apex2801

spAdam, hopefully this thread will be of benefit to both of us then. Sounds as if we're having many similar thoughts regarding our builds. As for the valve spring issue I'm right with you, I'm not familiar with the Rocket brand you mention; who sells them? I was passing on titanium retainers simply due to cost, Ideally I'd like to use the OEM retainers if possible. I've balanced the Pistons, Rods, and Wrist Pins to within .2 grams each component. The machine shop will be checking the Crankshaft but said his experience with the Honda CS is they are usually very well balanced additionally he said anything less than 1.0 gram difference is good to go. I'm sure that could be a topic to debate but I'm satisfied with how things are for my build.

I tired to get better info on the intakes and held off buying the SK2 I bought, do you know the difference to be significant compared to using the B16a2/a3 unit? How about the 70mm T.B. ?
I didn't mention crank case pressure relief however I'm using the ports on the back side of the block with a kit into a breather/oil can. I felt this method would be a little better than adding ports to the cam/rocker cover.

In a thread I read here on HT "budget header showdown" the Hytech replica made as much as 12 ft pounds of TQ and 12 hp more than any other in the showdown at about 4700 Rpm and held and advantage up till around 6000 rpm where they are were pretty equal, The test engine was a stock ITR unit so not sure if those results would be the same for us.

Apex2801

Everyone is siting this one out? Seems engine build threads normally get a lot feedback.

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

You'd see better results with less money by bolting a Jackson Supercharger on there and calling it a day.

turbociv910

get something run of the mill that will hold a good torque curve.. i had big lift ams in my old nasa car and went back to smaller ones because it killed the 3-5k range.

Apex2801

Thanks, which cams were you using ? Specs? Any suggestions on exhaust header? Supposedly the Tri Y 4-2-1 designs have better mid TQ versus the basic 4-1 designs.

On a little bit of a side question, How'd you like NASA?
thanks

RagingAngel

Is a crank girdle allowed in your class?

What about inside the transmission?

I would focus on these two components and perhaps consider a Toda copy header known as the TDA by PLM as it offers good ground clearance and good power and will also enable you to use the ITR transmission brace which I feel is a good and affordable piece to consider for your constant trips to redline.

JRCivic1

A good friend of mine collaborated with Motorvations to build a non-vtec B20 engine for his daily driver... he is SUPER happy with the results and is even considering building a duplicate to use in his road race car. The basics on the engine are Supertech 11:1 pistons and Crower econo rods, Crower 404's (I think... they may be 403's), mild chamber work (cc'd), PLM TA header, Skunk2 Pro Series intake manifold and ITR T/B... it made 175 wheel HP and 150 lb/ft. Torque on pump gas. Meaty power band all through the mid-range... best Honda engine he has ever built.

Apex2801

Any crank girdle is permitted same with transmission internals. Currently I am not using a Crank Girdle, the transmission is a stock LS unit with a Phantom Grip LSD block.

Ground Clearance is a concern with any header I end up using, and the Toda copies seem to do a good job in that area. I'd like more feedback on the HY Tech tested in the post I mentioned previously. Thanks for the tip about using the ITR transmission brace... I'll look into getting one.

Apex2801

Thanks for sharing, I have read other posts of very similar B20 builds with similar results; and for the most part my build is right on track as your friends. Ideally those with experience who are using B20's for road racing or have built B20's for road racing purposes could chime in and share some knowledge... non Vtec b20's that is.

Thanks

solorex

There's another thread in this forum about the non-vtecs where I have posted my dyno results. I run a B20, ARP rod bolts, 403 cams, LS intake, stock head, 68mm TB, 4"-3" tapered intake and RSR 4-2-1 header, 2" exhaust and I put down 178hp/150ftlbs. Use it in my CRX for autox, time attack, hill climbs. Great mid range power, it's fun and reliable but just doesn't have the top end pull of the B20Vtec (obviously) but it's torquey and pulls out of corners really nice.

STRATTON

surprised no one has picked up on this issue. issue being the trans. a ls trans is a terribly trans for racing. your gearing is far to long as is the final drive which i guess is a 4.04 ?

cheapest easiest option is to run a 98 spec type r trans. better gearing, oem 4.7 final drive and oem lsd.

this by far will give you your best bang for your buck, best improvement.

if for some odd reason your are doubtful, look at all the fast road racing hondas especially hill climb ones. they utilize correct gearing and short final drives.

i run a d series trans in my crx, it has the same exact gearing at a 98 spec r trans and i run ats 4.7 fd along with a mfactory helical lsd.

let me tell you with my 160whp 126wtq d series this thing pulls very strong out of corners, i do extremely well in my first year of auto cross, running times evos, stis, and m3s run.

after you get a better trans set up in there, go after more power.

youll thank me.

stratton.

solorex

^Yes absolutely this is a must. Need to run the short gears with a B20

spAdam

iTrader: (1)

x3... I didn't notice the trans specs before. Lose the phantom grip while you're at it and get yourself a real diff.

You're on the right track with all of this. A 70mm tb will be way more than enough... I'd wager a SWAG that 68 would be about perfect. I generally believe that with throttle size, any more than what you need is too much. I usually leave the stock one and only upgrade if I see it choking in the data, but since you're starting with a pretty built setup it would be a good upgrade to start with. Skip the Blox junk and get something decent.

The Skunk2 manifold has more plenum volume and shorter runners than the stock B16. The runner lengths are going to push peak torque way up into the revs (higher than even a B18C5/R) , past where you are going to capitalize on it with your relatively low-revving engine. There's not really a good data on this topic, just years of anecdotal stuff from guys trying different things on these engines.

Look up Rocket Motorsports on Facebook and send him a message. He's in Northridge, CA.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

@STRATTON: I'm surprised I didn't remember seeing that, myself. Changing final drives at minimum is a great way to create a mulitplication in torque for the driveline, which makes a great difference in road racing, regardless of power. He may not even have to change transmissions completely. (They're starting to get rare now). If Apex2801 has the capability, even going to an MFactory 4.785 final drive (the FD and Sun gear and made for B16/LS/B20 family) vs. the ITR 4.785. My friend and tech was able to "finagle" the ITR into the LS transmission, and it's worked (this was before MFactory had these offerings), but now that these are available, I'd look to that option. Don't forget the needle bearings and other parts for the new final drive.

Apex2801

@Stratton & The Shodan . I agree with your suggestions of using better final drive ratio and a better real LSD unit. All of that is in the future plans... depending how badly the stock LS with PG does will determine how quickly funds will get set aside to remedy the issue. Everything is a step at a time situation

Again I want to remind everyone I'm really interested in feedback regarding cam shafts and headers or other engine build / component selection information.

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

The reason I shut you down early, is because LS builds are hard to do right, and ultimately, there's ZERO advantage over a VTEC motor. Now, I did help Ty Tipton with his supercharged LS motor in his road racing civic that he has won multiple championships with, but again, you didn't want to talk about anything except what you had your mind set on.

Anything except aftermarket forged pistons won't have valve reliefs in the top, or if they do it will be too shallow, I've had multiple friends hammer valves with 403s in LS motors.

The head flows like total ****, so you'll need to port that.

You have a limited selection of performance parts, and the ones that you can finagle to fit, don't work as well as they do on better flowing motors.

So, now that you've spent literally thousands of dollars on forged rods, pistons, cams, porting the head, header, intake manifold, injectors, a better transmission, LSD, etc... you could have just put a B18C5 in there and made the same power, more reliably, with far less effort.

But hey, don't mind me, I've never done this before or anything.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

We're telling you that now.. We're not suggesting it because it's what expected, it's because we've already done it with that LS transmission, and this is the best way for it to work on road racing, (which those of us that are suggesting have also done).

Do as you will, as I'm sure you're trying to understand your car, but we'll warn you now.. start saving money for that instead of worrying about some Intake Manifold.

Apex2801

@2lem1 Firstly, you never did or will ever shut me down. Your comments add nothing to my thread post; kindly run along, clearly you have bigger and better things to spout off about.

Apex2801

I hear ya, like I said, it's a process. If I come across an ITR transmission I'll ****** it up, but for now I have the LS trans. Last season was the first time for the car to be one track and it's been since 99' that I've been on course so there is plenty of development to go around. With the D16z6 and it's factory transmission that is similarly geared to the LS there were no big issues of "gearing" I run at Mid-Ohio mostly.

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

Do what you're going to do.

I'm only trying to help.

STRATTON

its not if i come across. its get one. hands down will be the best upgrade dollar for dollar, you EVER do to your car.

look at it like this, f1 cars, make crazy power, for a mere moment in its rev range, they are only able to put this "peak" power down because of the perfect gearing. same goes for dedicated drag cars. gearing.

get a or build a better trans, you can spend 3 thousand dollars getting a custom intake manifold, cams, a ported head and still wont be as fast as if you built a proper trans.

the ls i trans is holding you back and will forever hold you back. address that first.

i say this only because i know. i never built a motor or car, with out running a transmission that had proper gearing, appropriate fd, and an aggressive lsd. be it high hp turbo set ups, high hp all motor setups.

if your still in doubt, which its ok if you are, go at the very least, you tube some videos of back to back vids of cars after trans/fd swaps.

stratton.