RTW DC2R

First let me note that the purpose of this post is NOT to bash MFactory, this is the first time I am presenting details to them regarding the issue. I have mentioned it to them through email within the past few months (last time was November 5th to be exact) and I informed them I would be uninstalling it in the future. I have now finally been able to get access to proper tools and equipment needed to show my side of the story.

The goal of this thread is to present my side of this story to help explain the problem, show as much evidence as I can in a clear fashion, get suggestions, and find a resolution. User MFactory will be PM'd once I complete this post and an email will be sent as well.

The reason I chose the 4.05FD from MFactory is so I didnt have to run larger tires on my car. Being that its a turbo setup and making decent power, I was needing to shift to 5th in the 1/4 right at the finish line with the stock ITR FD. This was hurting my times/mph and the longer FD allowed me to stay in 4th and also made the car a bit easier to drive on the street. Essentially the 4.05FD made each gear a bit longer and made cruising at 80mph sit nicely around 3900RPM on stock sized tires. Running larger tires in the front apparently can mess with the ABS as well.

Now onto the problem.

Swapping the OEM gears, synchros, hubs, shims and new bearings over to the MFactory unit was simple enough with the right tools. However, when it came time to torque down the nut on top of the CounterShaft to spec (80ft/lb - 0 - 80ft/lb), suddenly 1st gear (the very bottom gear) would not spin freely. It was being pinched somehow. We determined the problem to be the thickness (heightwise) and/or location of the lower flange on the lower portion of the CS compared to stock. We were able to work around this problem by using an out of spec shim under 1st gear, which we actually custom made from a snowmobile clutch shim. However, this "fix" had a snowball effect and required several other half assed "fixes" to make it work. If we swapped in a stock in-spec shim, it would not work and 1st gear would be jammed. It may have worked half assed for the short time it was installed, but its obvious was not going to last.

The effects of installing a thinner than spec shim has a domino effect. First the shim itself is out of spec. Second, it caused 1st gear to sit lower on the CS when installed in the clutch housing. Third, the fact that 1st gear sits lower, it actually made contact with a shim/spacer on the mainshaft. Fourth, I actually removed one of the spacers on the mainshaft to allow for clearance, but then that lowered the mainshaft assembly and put the top shim out of spec. Finally, and of minimal importance in this case, it caused the gearing itself to mesh less ideally. Not to mention with such close tolerances, I assume premature wear to bearings could result as well if those tolerances are out of spec.

See pics below for visuals and further explanations.

Here is the custom shim and 1st gear for reference.


This next picture shows some detailed measurements and this is where we feel the main problem is. All measurements are in inches and were done with the same tool back to back.






As you can see, the Final Drive gear is slightly higher on the MFactory, than on the stock FD. Not only that, but the tiny area where the shim rests is actually thinner than the stock area, which prevents you from using an in-spec shim here (pics below). The pics also show that even though the shim is already thinner than spec limits, the CS was eating away at it because it is tighter than spec. The overall final drive gear is much taller overall compared to stock, and actually the base of the countershaft is taller as well. All of this is causing 1st gear to be pinched when trying to use an in-spec shim.

shims on both MFactory CS...


Shim on stock CS...


shim measurement


shim wear from being squeezed by the FD gear and 1st gear


Here is the top portions of both CS showing the specs are not the same here either.


And here are some bottom measurements for reference.



I feel all of this information shows that the specs of this particular MFactory CS is off enough to cause the install problems I had. Granted these measurements are miniscule at best, but they all add up when everything is assembled and equate to being out of spec. I would not have spent the last 3 hours putting this post together if I didnt feel it was valid. We tried numerous times to install all components on both the stock and MFactory FD to try to find an error on our part. But we could not find one. The only errors we see are in the specs of the piece.

I tried to present this information as clearly and accurately as possible. I am not necessarily looking for a refund for a defective product at this point. I would be happy with a replacement. However of course I would not install it again if the specs appeared to the the same. Granted it has been almost 4 months, however they assured me the problem was not with their part. I hope to have proved them incorrect. As with most machined products I assume this could just be a bad piece and the others are fine. In fact I know of another person with the same FD and they report no install problems. I would like to hear what MFactory has to say about it and look forward to finding a resolution.

Ryan


edit: forgot 2 pics


Modified by RTW DC2R at 12:37 AM 2/24/2007

migs

Cliffnotes: MFactory's component that he has, is not machined or created properly.

itr1244

damn. i wonder if my 4.9 fd was off like that too..

i never measured it because i sent it out to a shop

i had few issues when i was installing it..
as they said it needed jdm first gear set . but the transmission shop said they couldn't even fit the jdm first gear..

so. i didn't even use the jdm first gear set for my installation.

but so far it's working great for me

GO-FIGHT-KILL

Damn Ryan, sounds like you should be bashing them... Quite a headache.

itr1244, if it's an ATS 4.9FD, I doubt there's any fitment problem, I've never heard of any problems associated with those, other than them breaking with higher horse power placed on them, with large slicks.

Circuit Star-29

What about the emails exchanged w/ Mfactory? What was their excuse/explanation?

I've seen three of their X gear sets and two of their FD (4.9 on an R and an LS) installed and haven't seen a problem. I wonder if this was a "problem batch".

88 rex

I don't think the bottom measurement matters, but the rest looks off.

Very informative

RTW DC2R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Circuit Star-29 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What about the emails exchanged w/ Mfactory? What was their excuse/explanation?

I've seen three of their X gear sets and two of their FD (4.9 on an R and an LS) installed and haven't seen a problem. I wonder if this was a "problem batch".</TD></TR></TABLE>

I didnt get into too much detail during the emails at the time because I didnt have the measurements available to give them. I gave them the cliff notes that the lower portion of the CS was out of spec, pinching 1st gear. They said they would check with engineering. Apparently they checked and said they are not out of spec. I can pull up all the emails for verification if needed. I just assumed I had a bad piece and told them I would be pulling it out soon to get measurements.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GO-FIGHT-KILL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Damn Ryan, sounds like you should be bashing them... Quite a headache.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

They havent done anything wrong at this point. In fact the gave me a great deal on the part, below what they offer it for on the website, shipped, which I was super happy about. I didnt have any details to give at the time but they assured me their engineering was correct. Hopefully I have proved them wrong and we can work something out.

RTW DC2R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 88 rex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think the bottom measurement matters, but the rest looks off.

Very informative </TD></TR></TABLE>

It looks like the entire configuration is a little higher on the CS compared to stock. But I think the bottom measurements are the most important as thats where the most error in measurements is found. The fact that the FD gear on the CS is much taller than on the stock FD gear, and has less shim area, there is less room for 1st gear to float freely. And obviously when the nut is torqued down, it doesnt float freely at all unless I use a much thinner out of spec shim. And even with the really tiny shim, it was still being pinched and eating into the shim.

itr1244

btw my 4.9 fd is from mfactory.

didn't really have any fitment problem.

just some confusions about the first gear set

MFactory

Ryan: You have PM.

If there is anyone else who has experienced the above problem(s) when installing their final drive, please can you contact us asap.

If you have already installed your final drive without any of the above problem(s), there is no need to panic. Your transmission is fine

So far, this case does seem isolated, and we are looking into it. Thank you.

RTW DC2R

Thanks for the reply. I sent you an email already but did not include the details. I will try to put the details into an email though it may be difficult to sort out with a bunch of attachments. Ill do my best. Thanks

88 rex

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It looks like the entire configuration is a little higher on the CS compared to stock. But I think the bottom measurements are the most important as thats where the most error in measurements is found. The fact that the FD gear on the CS is much taller than on the stock FD gear, and has less shim area, there is less room for 1st gear to float freely. And obviously when the nut is torqued down, it doesnt float freely at all unless I use a much thinner out of spec shim. And even with the really tiny shim, it was still being pinched and eating into the shim.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I meant the VERY bottom ....... .866 vs .864

The part you are talking about there looks way off.

RTW DC2R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 88 rex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I meant the VERY bottom ....... .866 vs .864

The part you are talking about there looks way off. </TD></TR></TABLE>

well thats just to show the measurements are off between the two. I didnt have any other measurement tools to measure the top portions of the CS but they are clearly not the same.

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

MFactory

RTW DC2R

Here is their reply

Hello Ryan,

sorry for the late reply. I just got an answer back from our engineers and after looking at your images, they can see the difference in profile. They checked the measurements of our other stock and those all met the oem specifications. This is why their answer last time was that our pinions did meet the oem specifications, as they did not have the same details that you just gave us.

would it be possible if you could ship the faulty final drive back to us? we will have a replacement sent out to you asap. Please accept our sincerest apologies for this error.

One other thing, you didn't actually mention if the final drive caused a failure or not? Was your transmission still running ok?

Thanks,

Stephen


So at this point Ill be shipping the FD back and hopefully the new one will be to spec. Ill keep you guys posted.

MFactory stated they had received quite a few emails regarding this post and some customers were worried about failures. For those of you wondering, I have NOT had any kind of major failure during all of this. I do think because the mainshaft was not shimmed correctly, it was moving around a bit from side to side. For instance, the first time I took a slow left hand turn, I heard a noise from the tranny that sounded like that noise it makes when the snap ring pops into place when putting the case back on. Other than that the bearings (probably mainshaft in the clutch housing) may have been starting to whine a bit. They were recently replaced, and this is what actually led me to pull the trans again to check things out.


Modified by RTW DC2R at 7:24 AM 2/28/2007

s_18

Haven't noticed anything out of spec with my mFactory 4.9 yet.
I am in the process of installing it these days, so I might check a few measurements.

A solid thumbs up to mfactory for their customer service!
You take care of your customers the way you should.

walker111

Ryan, are you replacing all of the bearings? With the clearance issues you had, even the slightest bit off can cause significant wear on the bearings. I would recommend replacing all the bearings. I would be willing to bet this is the cause of your never-ending tranny problems...

's up to MFactory, I understand where they were coming from up until they saw pictures. Whenever disputing something with someone, its best to be prepared, like Ryan was

to resolution..

Circuit Star-29

Outstanding

RTW DC2R

Just to add another note and give a big to MFactory, I decided I did not want to use the 4.05FD anymore due to some changes with my car, and they had NO PROBLEM saying YES when I asked for a refund instead of the replacement, even though it has been MONTHS since I purchased it. I havent received the refund yet, but thats probably because I havent shipped the part back to them yet. I plan to do so tomorrow.

Jim, yeah Im replacing most of the bearings anyway just to be safe. The main bearings that usually have problems are the CS and MS clutch housing bearings. So I spent most of the day today cleaning the crap out of the tranny guts. I dont see any major problems with wear on the bearings but anytime I use a press or vise to remove/install something, Im always wary of the forces placed on the parts.

RedR

thats really nice from mfactory

Grand

Mfactory get's two thumbs up from me.

There does'nt seem to be too many companies around theese day's that stand behind their product and offer that level of customer support/appreciation.


I can now order a 4.9 fd with complete confidence.

HYREV2NR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MFactory &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ryan: You have PM.

If there is anyone else who has experienced the above problem(s) when installing their final drive, please can you contact us asap.

If you have already installed your final drive without any of the above problem(s), there is no need to panic. Your transmission is fine

So far, this case does seem isolated, and we are looking into it. Thank you.</TD></TR></TABLE>Man after a reply like this, this guy might have my future business! I give 3 for MFactory!

walker111

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RTW DC2R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Jim, yeah Im replacing most of the bearings anyway just to be safe. The main bearings that usually have problems are the CS and MS clutch housing bearings. So I spent most of the day today cleaning the crap out of the tranny guts. I dont see any major problems with wear on the bearings but anytime I use a press or vise to remove/install something, Im always wary of the forces placed on the parts. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I hate bearings, there is no real way of seeing how much life is actually left. Hell, you cant even guess.

HYREV2NR

I'm still learning new things everyday about building my turbo R. But this is the first time I've heard there was a 4:05 F/D available. That seems like a big change from the 4:40 F/D. I was always under the ussumption to leave the R gear box alone w/ what I'm doing. Maybe the taller gears are better for boost anyway. Good food for thought.

RTW DC2R

Depending on the power you are making, it may or may not work for you. For me, I was shifting to 5th at the drag strip and spinning thru 4th gear, so I opted to go with the longer FD to stretch the gears out some, so I could keep my tire size the same and it would be nice for the street (cruising at 80mph around 3900RPM = pretty quiet and gas friendly on the highway). It is a big change from the stock 4.4FD, which I am now switching back to. Again, it depends how much power you are making. If you arent making enough, the car is gonna feel like you are towing something behind you.