riceball777

i'm just curious to ask this question
why do honda engines make so much more power with less boost than the evo engines. you can built a low compression b seris motor like 8.5-9 to 1 compression about the same compression an the 4g63, but they always make mosr power with less boost. i mean with a 9.1 compression b seris you only need like 12 psi to break 400+whp on a gt35 or simmular size turbo. where *** the evo needs 22+psi.
also why can evos run so much more boost on pump gas?. evos always run like 20-23psi on pump gas and built low compression hondas always run like 12-14psi max on pump gas. why cant we run 8.5 to 9 to 1 compression like that of the evo and still boost 22psi on 91 octane. for us that kind of boost lever is required of race gas.

alterdcreations

because hondas rule the f^%king world
better head design

underpressure02

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by riceball777 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'm just curious to ask this question
why do honda engines make so much more power with less boost than the evo engines. you can built a low compression b seris motor like 8.5-9 to 1 compression about the same compression an the 4g63, but they always make mosr power with less boost. i mean with a 9.1 compression b seris you only need like 12 psi to break 400+whp on a gt35 or simmular size turbo. where *** the evo needs 22+psi.
also why can evos run so much more boost on pump gas?. evos always run like 20-23psi on pump gas and built low compression hondas always run like 12-14psi max on pump gas. why cant we run 8.5 to 9 to 1 compression like that of the evo and still boost 22psi on 91 octane. for us that kind of boost lever is required of race gas.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Does the evo have the same size turbo as the honda and are all other variables equal?

riceball777

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by underpressure02 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Does the evo have the same size turbo as the honda and are all other variables equal? </TD></TR></TABLE>
yes everything is equal
both have the same compression and both have the same turbo
but the evo will take more boost to make the same hp why they can also run most boost safely on pump gas

typical b seris is like 8.5 to 9.1 compression gt35r 12-14psi, 91 octane
typical evo motor stock 8.5 compression gt35r 20-23psi 91 octane 400whp

the question is
why do we make more more power at the same boost lever when compression is the same

why can they run moor boost on 91 octane. you never see hondas running 20-23psi on 91 octane even with low compression 8.5-9-1 motors

the power differances also goes beond the added drivetrain loss of awd

atec

[QUOTE=riceball777]evos always run like 20-23psi on pump gas and built low compression hondas always run like 12-14psi max on pump gas. why cant we run 8.5 to 9 to 1 compression like that of the evo and still boost 22psi on 91 octane. for us that kind of boost lever is required of race gas.

QUOTE]


Because 22psi on a honda Usally gives you a lot more power than 22psi on an evo like you said. I think the pumpgas is limiting

It is not the amount of boost that count, It is the amount of power made.


I think the reason why honda make more, Is that they can hold the torque curve high to a higher rpm number, while the 4G63 engine slacks of too early.

High torque on high rpm gives a higher hp number.

rip94delsol

whats the bore on the 4g63? i know its not a big difference when bores but when you also put in the stroke in it plays a big role!

njn63

head design/cams that aren't great for high rpm flow.
small turbo stock.

riceball777

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rip94delsol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">whats the bore on the 4g63? i know its not a big difference when bores but when you also put in the stroke in it plays a big role!</TD></TR></TABLE>
stock evos or 85mm bore and 88mm stroke. preatty much almost the same as an lsvtec

riceball777

QUOTE]


Because 22psi on a honda Usally gives you a lot more power than 22psi on an evo like you said. I think the pumpgas is limiting

It is not the amount of boost that count, It is the amount of power made.


I think the reason why honda make more, Is that they can hold the torque curve high to a higher rpm number, while the 4G63 engine slacks of too early.

High torque on high rpm gives a higher hp number.
[/QUOTE]

we tey can make about the same amount of power.
liek i said earlyer

a built low compression (8.5-9 to 1 compression) honda will make about 400whp with a gt35r at 12-14psi 91 octane

a evo with the same compression and turbo will make 400whp at 20-23psi 91 octane

the question is why do they take more boost to make the same amount of power

and

why can they run moost boost on pump gas than us.

20-23psi on 91octane is common on 91 octane

you never heard of a boost low compression honda that runs that kind of boost lever on 91 octane pump gas

Code

Also, the AWD in the EVO eats up a bit of HP at the wheels.

rip94delsol

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by riceball777 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
stock evos or 85mm bore and 88mm stroke. preatty much almost the same as an lsvtec</TD></TR></TABLE>

you do got a point there but also evo motors have balancing shafts and much more for reliability! not too sure if this would play a part but who knows..

head design really plays a part for sure also remember an evo has to distribute to all 4 wheels unlike a fwd car...

alot more power is going to be lost when you have to push 4 instead of 2!

turbodano

The over all VE of the Honda engine is a bit higher than the VE of the EVO. RPM has a good bit to do with the VE being higher with the Hondas as well.

What does a Honda head flow at .400 lift does anyone know this info? I think the EVO head flows 280cfm @ .400 lift.

riceball777

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rip94delsol &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you do got a point there but also evo motors have balancing shafts and much more for reliability! not too sure if this would play a part but who knows..

head design really plays a part for sure also remember an evo has to distribute to all 4 wheels unlike a fwd car...

alot more power is going to be lost when you have to push 4 instead of 2!</TD></TR></TABLE>
i understand more power is going to be lost with awd but the extra power that hondas make go beyond that. i also agree that the balance shaft of the 4g63 do take up a little more power.

but there is still my second question

with compression and tubos being equal (8.5 cr and gt35r for example) evos will make 400whp at 20-23psi 91 octane pump gas
hondas will make that power at 12-14psi 91 octane pump gas

why can that run more boost on pump gas than us
if we can run that much boost on pump gas we would be closing on 500whp

narfdanarf

I've seen a lot of hondas run 18-19lbs on pump gas. but then it goes back to hp like the other guys said...at 22lbs of boost you are around mid-upper 500hp which imo is dumb on pump gas, where with an evo is only around 400whp which plenty of hondas make 400 or more on pump.

JDogg

they cant run more than us on pump gas... 8-9:1 b-series i have done can take 20psi no problem on 93.. same with evo's

evo's dont make that much power b/c the intake manifolds suck worse than anything honda has ever made, the heads blow.. right there with d-series garbage.

TurboJesse

Horsepower is the limiting factor on pump gas, not boost. It may take a honda 15psi to reach that level while an Evo may take 22psi.

From what ive seen Evo heads flow well, look at the size of the ports. Unfortunately there is alot more than just flow that makes power. Most also run the stock intake manifold, they don't have the luxury of a $300 Edlebrock, HKS, etc are $1500+ . Stock intake manifold isn't ideal on big turbo 4g63's to say the least..

Most people also run flashed ecu's. The stock ecu is not as good as honda ecu's at those levels IMO. Ive seen 50whp gains from going standalone with boost staying consistent. For what its worth though, the stock ecu works very well, we just had a car put down 511whp with a bone stock motor, stock ecu on pump/meth...on a dyno thats known to read low.

Ive also seen mid-high 400whp Evo's trap 130+, its a whole differnt beast than a honda....

atec

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by riceball777 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i understand more power is going to be lost with awd but the extra power that hondas make go beyond that. i also agree that the balance shaft of the 4g63 do take up a little more power.

but there is still my second question

with compression and tubos being equal (8.5 cr and gt35r for example) evos will make 400whp at 20-23psi 91 octane pump gas
hondas will make that power at 12-14psi 91 octane pump gas

why can that run more boost on pump gas than us
if we can run that much boost on pump gas we would be closing on 500whp </TD></TR></TABLE>

Again:


Because 22psi on a honda Usally gives you a lot more power than 22psi on an evo like you said. I think the pumpgas is limiting, That is why you dont run 22psi on pump.

It is not the amount of boost that count, It is the amount of power made.

As for why Honda make more power:

I think the reason why honda make more, Is that they can hold the torque curve high to a higher rpm number, while the 4G63 engine slacks of too early.

<U>High torque on high rpm gives a higher hp number.</U>

93supercoupe

I thinka lot of it has to go to the limiting RPM's in the 4g63's.

If u had a 7200RPM limiter on ur 2.0l GSR, then u would probably have to turn the boost up to gain that power earlier.

Us revving to 9k makes it so we can carry that power higher in the RPM's so we can yeild more at the same pressures.


If some one can find a DSM dyno plot for 400WHP or more, we can compare that to the millions of similar Honda graphs and define a good answer.

njn63

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">right there with d-series garbage.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you better watch your mouth.

Power and displacement are limiting factors for pump gas.

TurboJesse

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93supercoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thinka lot of it has to go to the limiting RPM's in the 4g63's.

If u had a 7200RPM limiter on ur 2.0l GSR, then u would probably have to turn the boost up to gain that power earlier.

Us revving to 9k makes it so we can carry that power higher in the RPM's so we can yeild more at the same pressures.


If some one can find a DSM dyno plot for 400WHP or more, we can compare that to the millions of similar Honda graphs and define a good answer.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Scaling on dynapacks kinda sucks to get an idea of the curve but oh well.

Stock 4G63 bottom end, stock port head, 272's , AFI GT35R turbo kit. Stock ECU with Dynoflash Street tune

jdmturbosol

Its hondas combustion chamber and ports on their famous heads combined with vtec
the heads are very efficient and demote detonation and promote a nice even burn

riceball777

every evo runs like 20-23psi on 91 octane pump

why have i never seen any built low compression honda run that kind of boost pressure on 91 octane pump.

93supercoupe

Some one else post a graph of a 2.0l Bsereis, Vtec and we can really play with fire.(im far too lazy, lol)

Without knowing the boost pressure used, its kinda hard.

7800 rev, and not dropping off.

93supercoupe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by riceball777 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">every evo runs like 20-23psi on 91 octane pump

why have i never seen any built low compression honda run that kind of boost pressure on 91 octane pump. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Its power safely made, not boost pressure that matters.

TurboJesse

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93supercoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Some one else post a graph of a 2.0l Bsereis, Vtec and we can really play with fire.(im far too lazy, lol)

Without knowing the boost pressure used, its kinda hard.

7800 rev, and not dropping off.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry about 29psi on Pump/meth