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Ok. I'll be the first to say it.. IT'S NOT NEEDED WITH A QUALITY BELT LIKE A TODA RACING OR GREDDY BELT.
In 20 races those two company belts have never slacked nor caused issue in tensioning. I won't use one of those damn things, and to this day, many time attack B18C still don't use one, and take more abuse than any street car.
I'm not saying they don't have their place in the market, but its usually because the individual wants to keep using belts that WILL stretch. Just Sayin'
I hear you and even stated some of that previously. So what does the quality belt do for machined deck surfaces? All I am getting at is there is a point of no return and no matter what belt you use there will be tension issues on the Exhaust Cam to Crank side. I have had some conversations with some of the top engine builders for Hondas and they concur.
My statements are not just blankets thrown around based off of personal preference but rather experience with the situation at hand. I watch my setups like a hawk, and retension my belt more often than most I am sure (OCD maybe? ). The Gates belts don't stretch as bad as you make them out to. I promise though, the next time I get a belt, it will be a TODA to see what all the fuss is about. BUT, I will still be using my tensioner.
If I find the time I will try and find some before and after datalog screen shots even on a brand new belt with minimal miles. Engine harmonics are a funny thing, no matter what brand belt you are using, if you change the distance between the cams and crank, something has to accommodate that change.
Sorry for shitting In your thread OP, it wasn't my intention.
Sorry for shitting In your thread OP, it wasn't my intention.
No worries. This is all very interesting and informative. I've never tried to reuse a belt on an engine before which I guess is why I've never come across this issue. I'm actually impressed that the Gates Blue and an old stretched belt are the exact same length. Im really tempted to go buy the cheapest belt I can and just make sure that everything is lining up as it should. I wouldn't actually use it, I'm just paranoid something else is the problem but the belt length certainly makes sense.
I hear you and even stated some of that previously. So what does the quality belt do for machined deck surfaces? All I am getting at is there is a point of no return and no matter what belt you use there will be tension issues on the Exhaust Cam to Crank side. I have had some conversations with some of the top engine builders for Hondas and they concur.
That's fine, so what other solution do you propose, other than an aftermarket supplemental tension system? I mean, unless the head was milled over the service limit (or close to it), regardless of belt, it should be ok. Hard to say. So, I'm not saying don't agree with the idea of tension issues, its just that when you look at what 1158 had before simply changing belts, it seems more likely that it had simply stretched.. It wasn't as though he had the car, then took the head and had it severely resurfaced, then re-installed. It was a timing cover issue, that's it.
My statements are not just blankets thrown around based off of personal preference but rather experience with the situation at hand. I watch my setups like a hawk, and retension my belt more often than most I am sure (OCD maybe? ). The Gates belts don't stretch as bad as you make them out to.
Perhaps I'm coming from an older point of view; What you don't consider a "lot" of stretch, may be much more to me in my experience with these engines. Maybe we were that paranoid that we knew to change belts on a regular basis and not take the risk to reuse them, unless they were of a certain design, like TODA Racing, or GReddy or even the HKS belts. At the time people weren't willing to just "give up" certain amenities like powersteering just for a tensioner; that was few and far between. For me, old habits die hard, but I guess I'm now at a point where I can pinpoint my luck over the years and attribute them to certain parts; no matter how expensive they may seem to today's average enthusiast.
I promise though, the next time I get a belt, it will be a TODA to see what all the fuss is about. BUT, I will still be using my tensioner.
That's perfectly fine. You won't really see much of a difference except for when you finally decide to remove it because you're still using your tensioner. You sort of defeat the purpose of the test of using a TODA RACING belt.. But.. to each, I guess.
If I find the time I will try and find some before and after datalog screen shots even on a brand new belt with minimal miles. Engine harmonics are a funny thing, no matter what brand belt you are using, if you change the distance between the cams and crank, something has to accommodate that change.
This is what I guess I'm trying to establish. The symptoms look as though the distance had changed from a head mill or decking, but that wasn't established in the facts. Unless 1158 can verify that's what he has done, we're in do position to assume a whole lot.
Sorry for shitting In your thread OP, it wasn't my intention.
You're not destroying the thread, its just, you tend to belabor your point to where it turns into an obsession to be "right". We need more information. As frustrated as 1158 is at dealing with this, we need multiple approaches and perspectives to help him find a solution.
I had this same issue. I had my never opened type r ge sleeved/decked and had the head surfaced Oem cam gears ati crank pulley. With gates blue. Stock itr cams 85lb supertech
Timed up perfect on the cam gears but always ended up roughly 3 degrees past tdc on the crank pulley.
It ran fine made decent power. But def felt like something was lacking in the low end. It made 530. But it was off par for the amount of boost
Fast forward 3-4000 miles. I ended up bouncing off the limiter little too much and bent 1 exhaust valve.
So my advice and what I will be doing this rebuild. Is to degree them in with adjustable cam gears.
^^ This is useful information. It may be that instead of using certain "settings" on the Vernier Scale of the TODA GEARS, you need to set EVERYTHING back to 0,0 and Degree the camshafts. yes, they are Tuner 1s, but doing this may help eliminate all of the issues you're seeing.
1) New GReddy Belt
2) "DEGREE" the camshafts on the TODA RACING Cam gears.
Seems like that is possible to eliminate a lot of issues that may be present.
LOL, sometimes I wonder if you are just trying to get a rise out of me for some reason.
Without the timing belt tensioner you aren't going to be able to correct the issue. The only band-aid fix is to adjust the cam gear settings. Sorry, but I took it for granted that the cams had been degreed since adjustable cam gears were being ran. The ENDYN tensioner can easily be ran with the P/S AND A/C. Tweak P/S & A/C lines some, make spacer plate, cut or remove timing cover areas, and get a longer belt if you can't adjust. That simple.
Nothing against the OP, but there is always the question of if this was noticed before or not. Every Gates belt I have used has had this issue. It's not that big of a deal with adjustable cam gears, degree and go on your way. BUT understand, marks aren't going to exactly line up. Like I brought up before, I can only assume it's engineered in for thermal expansion due to the rigidity of the belt. I wish Honda was one step ahead of the game and developed the automatic tensioner a little sooner. If they had, this would never even been an issue - in theory - perfect tension when hot, cold, new, or old.
I may just buy a TODA belt measure it now though, because I just can't see how a stronger /stiffer belt could allow for some type of elongation, at least not at the rate of an OEM that it is replacing. There has to be room in a fixed adjustment timing belt system for thermal growth. Some rubber can stretch or shrink when heated depending design. Sure we are probably only talking 0.020" - 0.030" in thermal growth, but in the realm of bearing clearances this is HUGE. FWIW, Larry at ENDYN told me to only put about 0.010" deflection into the belt with the tensioner. The small amount of 0.010" took care of my timing fluctuations I was seeing... to each his own I guess.
I don't obsess over being "right" though; if I come across as confident, then that's accurate. If you pay attention to my posts (which I doubt) I end up being wrong from time to time. Heck, I even recently made a thread on Hondata's Forum that proved me wrong and posted it in the thread on here showing I was wrong. I am not sure who you confuse me with, but I just get annoyed when people try to discredit me when I am just relaying my real life personal experiences. It's all good though brother.
LOL, sometimes I wonder if you are just trying to get a rise out of me for some reason.
Without the timing belt tensioner you aren't going to be able to correct the issue. The only band-aid fix is to adjust the cam gear settings. Sorry, but I took it for granted that the cams had been degreed since adjustable cam gears were being ran. The ENDYN tensioner can easily be ran with the P/S AND A/C. Tweak P/S & A/C lines some, make spacer plate, cut or remove timing cover areas, and get a longer belt if you can't adjust. That simple.
Nothing against the OP, but there is always the question of if this was noticed before or not. Every Gates belt I have used has had this issue. It's not that big of a deal with adjustable cam gears, degree and go on your way. BUT understand, marks aren't going to exactly line up. Like I brought up before, I can only assume it's engineered in for thermal expansion due to the rigidity of the belt. I wish Honda was one step ahead of the game and developed the automatic tensioner a little sooner. If they had, this would never even been an issue - in theory - perfect tension when hot, cold, new, or old.
I don't obsess over being "right" though; if I come across as confident, then that's accurate. If you pay attention to my posts (which I doubt) I end up being wrong from time to time. Heck, I even recently made a thread on Hondata's Forum that proved me wrong and posted it in the thread on here showing I was wrong. I am not sure who you confuse me with, but I just get annoyed when people try to discredit me when I am just relaying my real life personal experiences. It's all good though brother.
Careful...this type of response is exactly what I mean about over-obsessing .. Now, you're assuming you know my thought processes and don't read your responses, or that I'm going to prejudge you..
You worry about your blood pressure going up because you think that people are specifically out to discredit you , or not acknowledge you're conversations with experienced professionals in the industry... Rationalize all you want... Classic symptoms of over-obsession..
There are plenty of ways to be correct without simultaneously attempt to prove your adversary wrong.. I learned this myself years ago. It's not worth the fight.
My personal experience with these types of racing dictates that this solution can be done without that aftermarket piece of equipment, has been done, and will continue to be done without it. From Garage Works Japan LTd, Type 1 , J's Racing, and even Race teams that run Group N Enduro, not one of them ever ran those items. Nor have I, nor will I.
As of now, we simply aren't there in possession of all the facts.. We're on the sidelines acting like Monday morning QBs, after the Sunday game.
In the end, it's not up to us..It's up to 1158. His car, his project, his decision.
All we can do is either continue to speculate, or continue to support him with no further deflection of his thread; I choose the latter.
So yes, point taken, use an ENDYN or Vibrant tension device or die.. Got it.
Let's give this thread back to 1158, please. Our am I to presume you need that last word again? (Over-obsess-- ,) nah, I won't say it.. :-)
LOL, sometimes I wonder if you are just trying to get a rise out of me for some reason.
Without the timing belt tensioner you aren't going to be able to correct the issue. The only band-aid fix is to adjust the cam gear settings. Sorry, but I took it for granted that the cams had been degreed since adjustable cam gears were being ran. The ENDYN tensioner can easily be ran with the P/S AND A/C. Tweak P/S & A/C lines some, make spacer plate, cut or remove timing cover areas, and get a longer belt if you can't adjust. That simple.
Nothing against the OP, but there is always the question of if this was noticed before or not. Every Gates belt I have used has had this issue. It's not that big of a deal with adjustable cam gears, degree and go on your way. BUT understand, marks aren't going to exactly line up. Like I brought up before, I can only assume it's engineered in for thermal expansion due to the rigidity of the belt. I wish Honda was one step ahead of the game and developed the automatic tensioner a little sooner. If they had, this would never even been an issue - in theory - perfect tension when hot, cold, new, or old.
I may just buy a TODA belt measure it now though, because I just can't see how a stronger /stiffer belt could allow for some type of elongation, at least not at the rate of an OEM that it is replacing. There has to be room in a fixed adjustment timing belt system for thermal growth. Some rubber can stretch or shrink when heated depending design. Sure we are probably only talking 0.020" - 0.030" in thermal growth, but in the realm of bearing clearances this is HUGE. FWIW, Larry at ENDYN told me to only put about 0.010" deflection into the belt with the tensioner. The small amount of 0.010" took care of my timing fluctuations I was seeing... to each his own I guess.
I don't obsess over being "right" though; if I come across as confident, then that's accurate. If you pay attention to my posts (which I doubt) I end up being wrong from time to time. Heck, I even recently made a thread on Hondata's Forum that proved me wrong and posted it in the thread on here showing I was wrong. I am not sure who you confuse me with, but I just get annoyed when people try to discredit me when I am just relaying my real life personal experiences. It's all good though brother.
I'm interested in seeing this endyn device. I may be interested in using one as well. Like the op I have power steering with a ramhorn no ac.
So if you could please post pics and what mods are needed. Thanks
I can tell you I've never had this issue before but NOT because I haven't noticed. I've never used a Gates Belt before, tho from what I understand OEM belts are made by Gates. So if that is the case then the OEM belts don't suffer from this issue. Because again, I've never had a problem setting a new belt and I'm **** about all of this stuff. I've only ever used OEM belts before and this is my first foray into aftermarket belts. Also anytime a belt comes off a new one goes on.
As far as the cam gear adjustment I didn't just randomly choose 0,+2 for the settings. We started at 0,0 on the dyno and went through the usual process of determining what the motor wanted. Now maybe I need to redo the cam gear tuning with the turbo upgrade but that's for another day. And I compared the old advanced cam gear to the new one to make sure it was set properly.
And from what I recall speaking to American Honda Limited in Ohio, Gates is not their supplier for OEM belts. He did not tell me who exactly, but that contrary to interweb lore, it wasn't Gates. I only use HONDA OEM or the aforementioned companies, so I can't say otherwise.
Back to 1158.... Yes, go to 0,0 after this is solved and reset TODA gearing if needed for the MKIII to be thorough. It may be different from the previous gears you had.
1158 - If that's the case, then if I may give a recommendation, purchase a higher quality belt like Greddy or TODA. It definitely sucks to spend more money, but it seems like it might fix your problems. I can't speak from experience with those belts though.
Pullig - Please let this thread go back to the OP, I updated another thread with pics on this very subject below. If you need any more help, respond there or PM me. Second page near bottom:
So got the Greddy belt on. It's still off the mark but just, maybe by a mm. The difference between the 2 is pretty significant. I'll get a picture of it with the Greddy belt a little later and then I'll post up the difference.
As far as the gears. I wanted to keep it 0,+2 so I could compare the Mark I vs the Mark III with no other changes. If I put it back to 0,0 we can't get that comparison. Once the minor adjustments are made to higher rpm fuel tables and we do an open E cutout pull then I'll go back and redo the gears to see what the Mark III likes.
So I am having a hard time getting a similar shot, this was the best I could do. Based on what I can see between the 2 belts the Gates Blue is off by about twice as much as the Greddy belt.
Here is the gates
And here is the Greddy Belt
I'm not sure why the Greddy pic didn't come out as clear. Same lightning and same camera. The Greddy isn't quite as clear and is a little more of an angle but you can still see the difference. Anyone think that difference is significant enough? I'm going to put it back together and warm the engine up to temp and then shut it off and check to see if the marks line up once its warm.
Looks like mine did .... I wouldn't run it ... what pistons do you have? I had CP flat tops... Mine prolly wouldn't have bent the exhaust valve with a recessed piston top.
Looks like mine did .... I wouldn't run it ... what pistons do you have? I had CP flat tops... Mine prolly wouldn't have bent the exhaust valve with a recessed piston top.
Have dished Wiseco. CR is 9.25:1. Motor was built 5 years ago. If I had it to do again I would go 10:1.
That's not too bad. It won't stretch it's length when warmed up, just so you know.
No I was wondering if the heat would bring it closer to TDC. The expansion of the head/block might put the mark where it is supposed to be. (belt stays same length but distance increases the slightest bit)
No I was wondering if the heat would bring it closer to TDC. The expansion of the head/block might put the mark where it is supposed to be. (belt stays same length but distance increases the slightest bit)
Ok so I think I have this tbelt thing sorted. With the Greddy belt the timing mark on the belt cover lines up with the letter TDC of the ATI pulley (which is how I thought it was supposed to be). I believe this is always how its been with OEM Honda belts (my wife confirmed this for me). It was only the other day when I realized it is the first mark and not the TDC lettering. I counted the marks which is when I realized 0 degrees had to be the first mark. This motor never had a stock pulley on it so I never realized my mistake. This means the cams have been about 2 degrees retarded for the life of the engine.
It was only when I put the looser Gates belt on that things really got screwed up as far as the timing goes. The motor idled nice and smooth this evening with the Greddy belt, just as it always has. 1 thing I didn't think to do was use the timing gun to see how many degrees the TDC lettering is from the actually 0 degrees mark. Based on the distances between the other marks it looks like 2 degrees to me. If that's the case advancing the cams 2 degrees would put them at TDC, in theory. I may buy a degree kit to see just what is up with the cams as far as retarded or advanced but given the nature of the cams and pistons I'm using I do not see how I could have and P2V contact as long as I keep the cam adjustments either 0,0 or positive. I will not chance going negative although I think we did try as low as -2 before.
Does this make sense to everyone or is my thinking flawed? I wouldn't do this with a new motor but this one has been run this way for damn near 5 years at this point with no problems. Also I think this could explain why the GSC cams were so bad for me. They would have been at -2,-2 instead of 0,0.
Anyone have an idea of how many degrees 1 tooth on a B series cam gear is equal too on the crank? I didn't find much searching for it (not that I expected too). I found something that said 1 tooth on a SOHC is 9 degrees but not sure if that applies to a B series.
When the engine is at TDC on the crank this is what the cam gears look like. (cams are at 0,0 right now)
Trying to answer my own question I counted the number of teeth on a cam gear. I counted 34 teeth. Cam spins 1 times for every 2 crank turns, right? If so, 1 tooth is roughly 5.3 degrees.
In the picture above the # degrees retarded looks like it is under 2 degrees to me. F it, I'm gonna order a degree kit and try to figure it out exact.
Im really shocked all the"" experts" havent helped you by now
This is whats going on. Your head or block is milled you wont get to perfect tdc any more
Line your cams up to tdc and lock them. They sell tools for this
Set your crank to tdc
Install the belt
That last pic you posted if thats the closest you can get to tdc then you move those adjustable cam gears where they need to be to set it to tdc.
Thats it
The numbers on the cams will be off but the motor mechanically will be all square
Then adjust on the dyno from there noting down all your changes
Im really shocked all the"" experts" havent helped you by now
This is whats going on. Your head or block is milled you wont get to perfect tdc any more
Line your cams up to tdc and lock them. They sell tools for this
Set your crank to tdc
Install the belt
That last pic you posted if thats the closest you can get to tdc then you move those adjustable cam gears where they need to be to set it to tdc.
Thats it
The numbers on the cams will be off but the motor mechanically will be all square
Then adjust on the dyno from there noting down all your changes
Or buy a degree kit.
^^I have posted this exact remedy on other peoples threads in the past. The secondary tensioner is foe deceleration with stiff springs, the belt flops around like a **** without the secondary tensioner regardless of belt used.
Im really shocked all the"" experts" havent helped you by now
This is whats going on. Your head or block is milled you wont get to perfect tdc any more
Line your cams up to tdc and lock them. They sell tools for this
Set your crank to tdc
Install the belt
That last pic you posted if thats the closest you can get to tdc then you move those adjustable cam gears where they need to be to set it to tdc.
Thats it
The numbers on the cams will be off but the motor mechanically will be all square
Then adjust on the dyno from there noting down all your changes
Or buy a degree kit.
Yeah I figured it was from the head being shaved and the block decked. I'm just wondering how much is too much as far as being off. I do want to buy a degree kit and figure out just how much it's off but I was just trying to get an guestimate as to how far to advance the cams to get them at 0,0. However instead of guessing I'll just set it at 0,+2 for now (which is where it has been).
As far as being off the cams are retarded right? I mean that's what I think and makes sense to me, but I want to verify I'm not being stupid - can confirm has happened many many times lol.
Being retarded slightly means there is no threat of P2V contact with minor positive adjustments.
11-21-2015, 07:58 PM
re: 1158's TR3030R GSR, now with 512whp!
Just Sayin'
). The Gates belts don't stretch as bad as you make them out to. I promise though, the next time I get a belt, it will be a TODA to see what all the fuss is about. BUT, I will still be using my tensioner. 
