david@didrace.com

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">East coast has little E85 availability. There are zero E85 stations within 300 miles of me. But Ive been dying to tune with it for months. grr
Servion, do you tune for a richer AFR with E85 than gasoline?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Stoich for E85 is 9.765:1, so at WOT I would hope so. I targeted around 7.5:1 under boost (which is equivalent to 11.0:1 for gasoline, .75 Lambda). I never got a chance yet to dial triple_s1x's AFR's in yet. I had the timing on a B20 at 20.5* of advance once it hit boost with no problems.

servion

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">East coast has little E85 availability. There are zero E85 stations within 300 miles of me. But Ive been dying to tune with it for months. grr
Servion, do you tune for a richer AFR with E85 than gasoline?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Absolutely. Actually, I am more comfortable tuning with lambda with any fuel other than straight gasoline, so I just switch the dyno over to display lambda and tune from there. I can get an afr plot for this dyno if anyone is interested, but I believe I left this car around .79 lambda. Alcohol burns so much cooler, its awesome !

spooncivic1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">we dont get e85.. they give us 100octane but make us pay 5bux a gallon for it </TD></TR></TABLE>

there are about 3 in charlotte, and 2 in hickory now.

85

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spooncivic1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

there are about 3 in charlotte, and 2 in hickory now.</TD></TR></TABLE>

anyone know if there are any in NE? what about E100? Im guessing idle would suck but under boost it would be soo nice, anyone know anything about it?

boosted-EG6

this is my vehicle i would like to give thanks to servion for the tuning adam for the dyno (dyno dynamics son!) and JG-Fabrications for the top-mount mani, and Peakboost for my t3/t67 H.O works like a champ, and a major thanks to wifey for putting up with my **** trying to put this thing together and the car was put together by my self like servion said 100% stock car put down those number queit easy and thanks to E-85 would recommend for most high power apps but maxed them out really quick so if you did E-85 i would recommend getting the 1600cc injectors and a good fuel system still running on the high pressure 255 no up graded power wire yet! and thanks for the comments guys

tegedrex

You running with Jeremy tonight?

Mag00n

whats all involved in running e85 in a nutshell?

If this is too offtopic could someone link me to some info?

Awesome numbers btw, really exciting

SL0WEGG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">East coast has little E85 availability. There are zero E85 stations within 300 miles of me. But Ive been dying to tune with it for months. grr
Servion, do you tune for a richer AFR with E85 than gasoline?</TD></TR></TABLE>

that sucks bro, Here in minnesota their readily available . And to maca, Your supposed to upgrade your fuel lines but some people actually run it in their car's using the stock fuel lines. You'll need an upgrade your fuel pump and get larger injectors.

Kelly.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tegedrex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Servion Tuning coming through once again </TD></TR></TABLE>

adseguy

E85 .

I have a PLXm-300 for my wideband so using e-85 whould be impossible to tune since the plx reads "rich" under 10.5 or something

Tactic$

Damn..... 100 miles away from me

PLX pwns me too

Def

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by adseguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">E85 .

I have a PLXm-300 for my wideband so using e-85 whould be impossible to tune since the plx reads "rich" under 10.5 or something</TD></TR></TABLE>

All widebands read lambda value - NOT actual AFR. It only outputs an AFR to easily read it. I believe you can change the fuel type to get the right AFRs outputted by the controller.

Jay_Sensing

That is wickedly impressive. Too bad our closest E85 station is a 3 hour drive nearly.

Weq

So you are using twice as much fuel.. doesnt this bring the cost VS power benifit down?

nowtype

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by adseguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">E85 .

I have a PLXm-300 for my wideband so using e-85 whould be impossible to tune since the plx reads "rich" under 10.5 or something</TD></TR></TABLE>

You can. You just have to do some conversions.
Es = AFR of 100% Ethanol at stoich = 9.0079
Ep = Percentage of 100% Ethanol.
Gs = AFR of Gasoline at stoich = 14.7
Gp = Percentage of Gasoline
sAFR = (Es*Ep + Gs*Gp) / 100

sAFR = (85% * 9.0079 + 15% * 14.7)
sAFR = 9.86:1 AFR

new AFR = tuned gas AFR * (gasoline stoich ratio) / blend stoich ratio

(newAFR *Blend stoich Ratio)/Gasoline Stoich ratio = Tuned Gas ratio
(14.7 * 9.86)/14.7 = 9.86
(12.0 * 9.86)/14.7 = 8.05

So if you were going to datalog, with the PLX it reads a minimum of 10AFR and a max of 20AFR. So with E85 minAFR = 6.70748299 and maxAFR = 13.414966:1

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
http://www.innovatemotorsports...6.php

adseguy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Def &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

All widebands read lambda value - NOT actual AFR. It only outputs an AFR to easily read it. I believe you can change the fuel type to get the right AFRs outputted by the controller.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good point. I'll just tune through the EMS values.

The_Head

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Weq &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So you are using twice as much fuel.. doesnt this bring the cost VS power benifit down?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I was wondering. Don't you have to inject twice the amount to get the same BTU measurement as gas?

nowtype

Fuel economy is a VERY tough subject to answer on because so little public information is available on E85. People know how to tune gasoline. E85 very few people know. Based on the math, it is correct to assume that E85 will use nearly twice the fuel. So if you were going to tune the car exactly the same as you were going to on gasoline, you'd end up using nearly twice the amount of fuel. Now with that said, E85 can burn significantly leaner than gasoline and still be fine. How lean? I don't know. If E85 was available around here, I'd go out and find some research papers on the topic and see if I could get some information. If you search the FI forum for E85 related threads, you will see some data from Servion as well as Backpurged.

JrCRXHF

I have had really good luck with E-85 i really need to go back and do some more work on my CRX with it.

SL0WEGG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Weq &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So you are using twice as much fuel.. doesnt this bring the cost VS power benifit down?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i dont believe your using twice as much. I guess that may be a general figure, well it might be close . But most would be willing to pay 2.50 for a gallon of 104. I believe thats what it comes out to, someone correct me if i'm wrong. I'm actually looking forward to running e85 on my build and will be able to comment more about it later

The_Head

My builder also touched on how you need twice as much pure Ethanol to get the same amount of power as the same quantity but (at the time) it cost half as much. He wanted me to convert my Civic into an ethanol only vehicle, since it's not going to be daily driven.

david@didrace.com

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now with that said, E85 can burn significantly leaner than gasoline and still be fine. How lean? I don't know.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I tried tuning to leaner than 10.5:1 with E85 at idle and it would misfire like crazy. I tuned the fuel tables to the Lamda of what I would tune for gasoline.

So if you run gas -

14.7:1 @ idle/part throttle
13.0:1 @ low vacuum
12.5:1 @ 0 vacuum
11.7:1 @ boost

so...

14.7 / 14.7 = 1 Lamda
13.0 / 14.7 = .88 Lamda
12.5 / 14.7 = .85 Lamda
11.7 / 14.7 = .79 Lamda

For E85 that would mean... (multiplying the Lamda value by the stoich of E85 = 9.765)

9.765:1 @ idle/part throttle
8.59:1 @ low vacuum
8.3:1 @ 0 vacuum
7.71:1 @ boost

Now, like said above, all wideband oxygen sensors are Lamda sensors. NOT air/fuel sensors. The software/firmware usually assumes you're using gasoline and scales the Lamda value to gasoline. I know that with the Innovate LM-1/LC-1 you can tell it what the stoich of the fuel you are using is so that you can have the correct a/f displayed for a fuel, but it's not really necessary. You just tune to the scale of gasoline using whatever wideband you have.

Of course you can run more timing at a given load value because of the higher octane.

Boosted B6teen

Im glad to see people tuning with this fuel. Nice job man

93supercoupe

one of u guys should make a good write up and sticky it on E85.


Sweet car, stock motor, topmount and e85.

SL0WEGG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by The_Head &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My builder also touched on how you need twice as much pure Ethanol to get the same amount of power as the same quantity but (at the time) it cost half as much. He wanted me to convert my Civic into an ethanol only vehicle, since it's not going to be daily driven.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess its true but then again e85 is only 85% ethanol. I dont know hahah. But its good that people are experimenting with it! much props