so who as seen rings rotate after install??
08-10-2012, 08:56 AM
#26
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Re: so who as seen rings rotate after install??
Interesting theory, but pointless posts like yours are "the wave of the future". When you actually contribute, let me know so I can join the masses.
So to kind of expand on what I said before: I have seen Hastings rings have improper back spacing for the rings and improper top and bottom gaps for the rings/ring lands in the past when used with aftermarket pistons. You must understand that not all manufactures use the same dimension ring grooves. I see oil deposits on the oil control and second rings as well. Unless it is just my old eyes and bad picture quality, then I am not 100% convinced it's the head.
Let's also revert back on to the basics of how an engine works. Clearly the intake valves get air sucked past them when the piston is going down. The exhaust valves have air rushing past them when the piston is going up. I am not going into overlap, but with that being said it is not your exhaust side that would be giving you the problem. You never stated that you checked the intake valve guides/seals. If it were the exhaust it would puff on startup and on he there potentially on deacceleration.
Regardless, the head is easy to check for valve deflection, seat condition, and seal condition. The piston rings and bores are a little more involved. We must look at all angles as the combustion process doesn't happen below the top compression ring. If it "accidentally" did crack ring lands or twisted rings would result. How do I know? I have seen it happen. With this being said, oil won't be burnt at these rings.
So, oil is either getting sprayed or slung from the bottom end and making it past your loose clearances. With Most 2618 forgings eliminating the oil squirters is recommended. I myself have gotten away with running them, but on forged it just isn't needed. The temperature differences between cast and forged are enough to confirm this. Either way, the cylinder head should be checked to insure no problems exist. Otherwise I suspect the bottom end to be the culprit as you have this problem on every single cylinder. A problem on all cylinders is almost never the head unless garbage parts were used and no clearances in spec.
So to kind of expand on what I said before: I have seen Hastings rings have improper back spacing for the rings and improper top and bottom gaps for the rings/ring lands in the past when used with aftermarket pistons. You must understand that not all manufactures use the same dimension ring grooves. I see oil deposits on the oil control and second rings as well. Unless it is just my old eyes and bad picture quality, then I am not 100% convinced it's the head.
Let's also revert back on to the basics of how an engine works. Clearly the intake valves get air sucked past them when the piston is going down. The exhaust valves have air rushing past them when the piston is going up. I am not going into overlap, but with that being said it is not your exhaust side that would be giving you the problem. You never stated that you checked the intake valve guides/seals. If it were the exhaust it would puff on startup and on he there potentially on deacceleration.
Regardless, the head is easy to check for valve deflection, seat condition, and seal condition. The piston rings and bores are a little more involved. We must look at all angles as the combustion process doesn't happen below the top compression ring. If it "accidentally" did crack ring lands or twisted rings would result. How do I know? I have seen it happen. With this being said, oil won't be burnt at these rings.
So, oil is either getting sprayed or slung from the bottom end and making it past your loose clearances. With Most 2618 forgings eliminating the oil squirters is recommended. I myself have gotten away with running them, but on forged it just isn't needed. The temperature differences between cast and forged are enough to confirm this. Either way, the cylinder head should be checked to insure no problems exist. Otherwise I suspect the bottom end to be the culprit as you have this problem on every single cylinder. A problem on all cylinders is almost never the head unless garbage parts were used and no clearances in spec.
i am not a complete fan of hasting rings. i originally purchased je proseal rings for this engine. i gapped and installed them. they had substantially more tension in the bore, and were superficially marking up the bore while not disturbing the cross hatch. i took them back out(they were in the motor for about 3 hours and 5 rotations by hand) and used some hastings rings that came with the pistons. that lasted 384 miles lol. the je rings that i originally purchased are now back in.
i did a good inspection of the cleaned pistons with a magnifying glass after they were cleaned. no cracked ringlands. all rings rotate free in their respective grooves, so im going on a limb and saying that there is no warpage.
ive been using that head for a while now, so i just swapped the springs and retainers into a head that was just refurbished at the machine shop if you will. if something with the head was the issue, this will clear it up. at some point in the future ill further inspect the old head to find the exact issue. i understand the logic and your point is valid about intake vs exhaust seals and characteristic smoking issues.
i have eliminated the oil squirters. the cp pistons have many more oiling holes than oe pistons, as well as im using an 89mm crank in a gsr block which i was always lead to believe would have clearance issues if squirters were run.
besides the supertech springs/retainers, my heads are all oem parts, right down to the oem ctr cams
malcom- the squirters are not to restrict flow, they are basically tiny little tubes that bolt into the bottom of the main oil journal that squirts the oil back up the cylinder bore to the bottom of the piston. id say the logic of them restricting flow comes from the idea that oil going through the squirters is oil not going up to the head. they in no way actually block the oil from going to the head.
08-10-2012, 11:00 AM
#27
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Re: so who as seen rings rotate after install??
"blackeg" - Well I am not sure what to say then, if everything checks out then there must not be a problem. We shall see when you put it back together. Also, just to clear up confusion - "MalcomV8" is referring to the oil restrictor orifice located in the top of the block that restrict the flow to the head so the mains/rods don't get oil starvation.
"MalcomV8" - It's a B-series thing, you wouldn't understand.
In all seriousness though, VTEC B-series engines have oil squirters/jets connected to the main oil galley and squirt the bottoms of the pistons.
These are typically for keeping the pistons cool. Some believe that they are for keeping the cylinders lubricated, but this just isn't the case. The crankshaft counter-weights sling more than enough oil to keep the cylinders lubricated. Turbo vehicles can greatly benefit from these as well. It will lower the piston temperatures and help resist detonation. Forged pistons have much better heat transfer than cast pistons and also resist problems from detonation. Forged tend to "deform" rather than crack/shatter like a cast piston does. The top of the piston is what sees the most of the heat (obviously). Here is a generic picture of the temperature differences between cast and forged:
Don't get me wrong, with forged pistons, the oiling just isn't needed. Also, on factory D-series and LS rods they have oil slingers to substitute for the squirters that are on VTEC B-series engines. These are eliminated with most aftermarket rods. Some people have went as far as drilling holes in the rod and bearings to account for this. I have done both and have not seen any real difference. It is more a peace of mind than anything. As long as all your clearances are correct and the oil pressure is acceptable - squirters are not necessary.
Just to make sure you are not confused, the oil restrictor is in the top of the block on D and B-series engines between the number 2 and 3 cylinders. The squirters are in the bottom of the block on each cylinder on B-series VTEC engines.
PS "blackeg" - Sorry to clutter your thread with all of that.
"MalcomV8" - It's a B-series thing, you wouldn't understand.
In all seriousness though, VTEC B-series engines have oil squirters/jets connected to the main oil galley and squirt the bottoms of the pistons.These are typically for keeping the pistons cool. Some believe that they are for keeping the cylinders lubricated, but this just isn't the case. The crankshaft counter-weights sling more than enough oil to keep the cylinders lubricated. Turbo vehicles can greatly benefit from these as well. It will lower the piston temperatures and help resist detonation. Forged pistons have much better heat transfer than cast pistons and also resist problems from detonation. Forged tend to "deform" rather than crack/shatter like a cast piston does. The top of the piston is what sees the most of the heat (obviously). Here is a generic picture of the temperature differences between cast and forged:
Don't get me wrong, with forged pistons, the oiling just isn't needed. Also, on factory D-series and LS rods they have oil slingers to substitute for the squirters that are on VTEC B-series engines. These are eliminated with most aftermarket rods. Some people have went as far as drilling holes in the rod and bearings to account for this. I have done both and have not seen any real difference. It is more a peace of mind than anything. As long as all your clearances are correct and the oil pressure is acceptable - squirters are not necessary.
Just to make sure you are not confused, the oil restrictor is in the top of the block on D and B-series engines between the number 2 and 3 cylinders. The squirters are in the bottom of the block on each cylinder on B-series VTEC engines.
PS "blackeg" - Sorry to clutter your thread with all of that.
08-10-2012, 12:14 PM
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Re: so who as seen rings rotate after install??
ohhh whoops! i misunderstood malcom... yea you got it about the oil control orifice vs the squirters. its all good that you put the info in the thread, you never know who might search it out for help in the future. i love stumbling upon my old posts and threads when searching
im not sure what to say either... just gonna see what happens. the head is back on and the cams go in after dinner tonight. should have it running in a few days depending on my weekend motivation to wrench and not hang out
im not sure what to say either... just gonna see what happens. the head is back on and the cams go in after dinner tonight. should have it running in a few days depending on my weekend motivation to wrench and not hang out
08-14-2012, 08:00 AM
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Re: so who as seen rings rotate after install??
well, so far so good i guess.
ive got 35 miles on the car. no leaks, no smoke, pulls good vacuum. only current issue is an intermittent fluttering/light tapping from the head near 1st and 2nd cyls. noticed it maybe half a dozen times in the hour i was driving around today. most noticeable when cruising at like 2500 rpm. after some rpm and a lil vtec it clears up for a few miles. i think its a lost motion assembly but havent really looked. not too worried. and yeah, no smoke.
ill put like 100 miles on it, change the oil and get the boost up past 10psi see what it does.
ive got 35 miles on the car. no leaks, no smoke, pulls good vacuum. only current issue is an intermittent fluttering/light tapping from the head near 1st and 2nd cyls. noticed it maybe half a dozen times in the hour i was driving around today. most noticeable when cruising at like 2500 rpm. after some rpm and a lil vtec it clears up for a few miles. i think its a lost motion assembly but havent really looked. not too worried. and yeah, no smoke.
ill put like 100 miles on it, change the oil and get the boost up past 10psi see what it does.
08-15-2012, 11:16 AM
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Re: so who as seen rings rotate after install??
ALL engines will rotate the rings after install. Nature of the beast. They can wind up having all the gaps perfectly in line unfortunately. While it may not be ideal, it won't cause the problems you are experiencing.
Anyone who says the engine is "running rich" has ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE what they are looking at or talking about. Disregard them.
Anyone who says the engine is "running rich" has ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE what they are looking at or talking about. Disregard them.
How are you clocking the rings before install??
They will move as everyone has said, but clocking them correctly will stop them from rotation to one another when they all line up and create some type of blow by area..I have a proper way to clock honda piston rings on my site, if you do not know how.
I can't see pics because i'm at work, but i will comment when i get home.
They will move as everyone has said, but clocking them correctly will stop them from rotation to one another when they all line up and create some type of blow by area..I have a proper way to clock honda piston rings on my site, if you do not know how.
I can't see pics because i'm at work, but i will comment when i get home.
And how are we to interpret your "piston and piston ring gap" chart? The numbers on column four seem a tad narrow for many applications of ring end gap other than normally aspirated, and the middle two columns labeled "normally aspirated" and "forced induction" don't seem to correspond to anything engine related at all - including ring end gap, bearings, and piston-to-wall settings.
08-16-2012, 01:14 PM
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Re: so who as seen rings rotate after install??
honestly im not sure exactly. they were the regular ones that come with the pistons. they had n50 marked on them. im not totally sure the rings were the problem, but i can tell you those hastings rings had noticeably less tension which im going to blame for the pretty bad rotation in the bore. some rings rotated almost 180*. i saved them in a ziploc bag lmk if u need a pic.
it should be noted that i did find some oil on the stem of some intake valves . it was primarily contained to where the valve is in the guide which is why i didnt see it on the top of the valves through the port. im sure under good vacuum some of it was getting sucked into my cylinders
it should be noted that i did find some oil on the stem of some intake valves . it was primarily contained to where the valve is in the guide which is why i didnt see it on the top of the valves through the port. im sure under good vacuum some of it was getting sucked into my cylinders
Last edited by blackeg; 08-16-2012 at 07:41 PM.
08-17-2012, 12:29 PM
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Re: so who as seen rings rotate after install??
09-06-2012, 04:59 PM
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Re: so who as seen rings rotate after install??
Hopeful final update here.
Got around 700 miles, boost is betweem 12 and 13 psi so between 380 and 390hp from previous dynos with the same tune and turbo setup. My pistons are all still dry on top and the smoking is minimal, nothing more than any other turbo car I've had. Compression is 215 psi with a leakdown of 8 to 9%. Its running great I got over 30mpg on a highway trip that involved putting a few carlenths on a worked 300zx and a camaro with a 450hp crate engine. The oil consumption came from the valveseals is the only conclusion I can come to. Ill probably keep it on pump gas for the rest of this year then be ready to go in the spring
Got around 700 miles, boost is betweem 12 and 13 psi so between 380 and 390hp from previous dynos with the same tune and turbo setup. My pistons are all still dry on top and the smoking is minimal, nothing more than any other turbo car I've had. Compression is 215 psi with a leakdown of 8 to 9%. Its running great I got over 30mpg on a highway trip that involved putting a few carlenths on a worked 300zx and a camaro with a 450hp crate engine. The oil consumption came from the valveseals is the only conclusion I can come to. Ill probably keep it on pump gas for the rest of this year then be ready to go in the spring
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