turbodano

Hey guys wanted to post some pics of the 1000 b.c. covers we just finished. This is our mid frame compressor cover made from 6061 billet. The wheel size we are using range from 58mm to 72mm.

turbodano

Here is a close up of the cover in process.

4tika4

may I ask what the benefits of a billet wheel are? I'm not doubting they are better. I just literally don't know anything about them haha.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Billet wheels are stronger and most of the time lighter than their cast counterparts.

also since you are no longer limited by the casting process you can design wheels with much more aggressive blade angles, thinner hubs, thinner blades, thinner superback profiles, etc.

but the main advantage is they are stronger, most often lighter, and as a result of these 2 factors can be used at higher shaft speeds/pressure ratios.

Coming from someone with a CNC background, I would hate having to design that compressor cover lol.

I ran across a cool Canadian company at PRI last year called Miltera.. they do lots of CNC development in the motorsports community.

they had a cool 2 piece billet CNCd compressor housing that featured a pressure neutral bypass valve (efr style) as well as a system that had a swappable inlet/diffuser diameter, so you could change compressor wheel sizes and designs by simply removing a few retention bolts and installing a different size diffuser.

they had multiple volute sizes designed, all of which had a range of wheel sizes they could accommodate by simply changing the inlet/diffuser insert. they said they just designed it for fun to showcase their design and CNC capabilities but having looked over the whole system I can see a real potential for this system among custom turbo builders.

they also had a unique way of recirculating the bypass valve as not to disturb the air entering the compressor wheel, this same method also doubled as a ported shroud.

I have a few pictures of the overall unit somewhere, they disassembled the unit and let me look at everything but I agreed not to photograph certain parts for obvious reasons, since any good machinist could look at the photos and reverse engineer the parts and system. but luckily I have a photographic memory so I remember what everything looked like

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The reason why billet wheels are so popular for more power is not because of the fact that they are lighter, or because they are just more durable on average than an inconel counterpart. Due to advances in manufacturing technology and availability of resources that can make billet compressor wheels, many turbocharger companies that specialize in the aftermarket now have the ability to change the aerodynamic design of the compressor wheels in a way that makes them more unique for the characteristics that they want to have.

See, all of Borg-Warner and Garrett's compressor wheels and turbine packages have to go through OEM standards including rotational, durability,"burst" testing in order to be sold to the public, because for every aftermarket wheel they manufacture, they sell 10 times the number of that wheel type to the OEM, with the exception of a few sizes. The Billet wheels that are made for most companies that offer them, with the exception of a few, do not have to go through such standards in order to be introduced into the public, because their intention is for "off-road use only". This gives flexibility to the turbocharger company so that they can create designs that will maximize their purpose. (i.e. midrange power, top end power, low-end torque, etc.). this is why on average, they are more expensive then the standard ones; you're basically paying for the research and development it took for these companies to make custom designs. if you notice, however, the turbine wheels are still made of the standard materials from the last 10 years or so, because very few materials can withstand the demands that the turbine wheel and shaft experience.

The Garrett engineers were correct when they said that there is no power difference between a billet wheel and one that is made of traditional inconel aluminum. The difference is that on average the billet wheel has increased durability and gives the ability for the manufacturer to make changes in aerodynamic design of the compressor wheel blades. Better Aerodynamics = more power (on average)

This is why you will never see "compressor maps" for any of the billet series. Because there aren't any, unless they put the cartridge up to a turbine dynamometer for testing. Most companies, including the ones that I've made, will never divulge those to the public. So there is no point in asking for them or searching for them online.

Hope that helps a bit

LightningTeg

tepid1

What's the advantage of a billet cover?

You'd be surprised how easy it is to make in solidworks.

turbodano

Why did we make a billet cover?

After 18 years of designing Turbochargers and being in the performance industry, I noticed that all the Turbo companies were basically copying each other's Turbo components. Most of the performance housings and wheels started off as an OEM Garrett part.... Everyone was fishing out of the same pond.
Our Engineering expertise allows us to take a fresh approach to performance Turbocharger design.
Instead of machining a pre-existing cast housing for a wheel, we are able to design our housings around performance Billet wheels. We all know how much Billet wheels have changed over the years, and the covers they are in have not kept up with that technology. We also have noticed significant gains in surface texturing and volute shape.
We are not stopping with just the compressor housing. We are revamping the whole Turbocharger as you know it. Turbine housings, Wheels, and Bearing systems will all be getting updated....
Designing parts to be a cast has certain limitations and doesn't always allow the freedoms needed in order to design the best performing part.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Good to see ya again.. I'm sorry I've been away, my man.. I'll contact you after this weekend.... Finally..

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

Can you explain this part again?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Sure. Basically since about 2007-2008 when the aftermarket companies started getting their hands on good CNC machines with better programming and ability, The BIG names were the only ones that used billet aluminum wheels, but used them on applications you wouldn't think were useful (Peterbilt trucks, Turbo diesel busses, Catepillar equipment, Tractors, etc).

The reason why they used those materials were because of two things.

1) Even though at the time billet wheel aluminum was more expensive, they didn't have to do the same production run sizes like other OEM applications for their heavy duty divisions.

2) The billet aluminum they used (and currently use) was built for durability from the extreme abuses that these heavy machines made... (Please remember, these applications that I stated, rarely if ever utilized wastegates to control boost. They would have 130lbs/min turbos running 8psi and no wastegate in their diesel applications, because it really wasn't necessary or cost effective when it came to their use in Diesel.)

The original billet designs were never different from the OEM cast wheels in these applications, and although lighter in material overall, didn't change the rotational inertia of the wheel rotating at a cool 80,000-90,000rpms, so there was really no power change at all, no "quicker spool", no "better response".. Just more durable than cast. It just helped their replacement and rebuild costs a bit better for their contracts.

See, a lot of aftermarket companies try and sell the idea that because the through-bore is smaller than the OEM design, or that "its lighter", automatically means its going to spool faster or perform better. For the LARGE framed turbos (I mean like over GT4718 to GT60 size) yes, it makes a small bit of difference, but not enough to really change the behaviour of the turbocharger. Its not until you get to an alteration of wheel profile and design, in conjunction with the right grade Forged Aluminum (like T5 6061 and T6 7075), the right construction, andthe right profile changes do you see the major differences. This is true mainly in the larger-mid-framed turbos (GT35R, S362, S258, GTX3076R, and smaller) do you see these changes.

This is why I scrutinize and seem to have an aristocratic attitude towards just any company that has billet wheels for cheap: Its not because I design and try and hate on any other company, but because I'm fully aware (as is Turbodano) of how delicate this balance of creation and hybridization is; If its not using the right material, and you just copy a design that's already out there in the name of cost, you're really potentially causing more harm to yourself than good. So, my seemingly "turbo snobbish" attitude is for a real purpose of safety and utility as well as power: Not to hate on others.

I mentioned this 4 years ago , in which I stated the same thing, verbatim
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...2440990&page=3

Billet construction is COOL. but its because it looks cool, and made with the right grade materials , works cool at the same time. Now, the question is cost effectiveness, because now that you're getting into machined compressor housings, ( Billet Aluminum Exhaust housings would never stand up to the heat, burst containment and pressures that Iron will), that's still a pretty penny, even if done enmasse unless, you have a lot of applications it can fit in.. But I'm sure Turbodano has figured a lot of that out. He's been around the block quite a bit with this stuff

0MIR Engineering

We have more pictures available as well as more information on our website.
www.makeitrightengineering.com

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Why the two screen names?

0MIR Engineering

MY name is Ben. and Dan has his account.
I was going to stay off of this thread to avoid confusion, but wanted to drop that website link in there.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I see. And what is your position at MIR Engineering, Ben?

0MIR Engineering

Marketing and Sales Mr. Shodan.
http://makeitrightengineering.com/about-us/our-team/

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Hi Ben, and welcome if I hadn't mentioned it earlier

0MIR Engineering

Thanks TheShodan!

0MIR Engineering

This may help answer some questions that you guys may have!

http://makeitrightengineering.com/Th...er-Technology/

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I could see the initial shape being easy to make... It's tweaking the design to get it right that would drive me nuts, especially the tight sections of the volute.

although what I hate more is getting the blade angle of compressor wheels right along with the loft of the blade.

I guess if I was currently getting paid to work with solidworks I probably wouldn't care but just playing around with it you can get frustrated.

Norlael

Any pictures of the inside of the cover?

OneBadTurboCRV

So are you guys trying to be to turbos what 4piston is to cylinder heads per say?

Without prices on your website most people these days won't be interested due to the fact that like the old saying goes "if you have to ask the price you probably can't afford it". You also need proof of why you are so much better than the cheaper options. Talk is cheap and proof is priceless.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Well I can understand being able to fine tune volute shape and size. a compressor wheel is only as good as the cover it goes in.

the problem is designing and casting custom covers isn't cheap, at least at the volume most independent turbo builders move. to a point CNC work is cheaper and faster, depending on part complexity, material, and machine time per part but I can tell you from experience that 5 axis CNC work isn't cheap or fast. this is mostly due to the fact that you can quickly implement a design change without having to make new molds and such.

a 5 axis mill is the only way I can see machining something as complex as a compressor housing in a reasonable amount of time. you could do it on a 3 axis mill but it would require complex fixtures with lots of machine cycles and reorientation of the part being machined. with a 5 axis you could do it with maybe 3 part movements at most, 3 axis would take considerably more.

the biggest investment with a part that large is the initial cost of the billet since you have such a large piece of material with a lot of waste to make each part.

personally it would make more sense to rapid prototype each part with a 3d printer using abs or nylon, tweak the design as needed, reprint on the 3d printer, tweak, reprint, repeat until you have the design you're looking for then step up to CNC with aluminum for a part you can test real world... doing CFD in virtual reality is very useful for initial designs but there's no replacement for real world testing.

However once you have an acceptable design for a given compressor wheel size and flow range it makes more sense financially and time wise to switch to casting.. since machining each part costs a lot in both time and material. with casting you can make multiple parts with one pour, although depending on part complexity you'd probably have to switch from black or green sand casting to investment casting. while the process costs more and due to the method of casting has an inherently high part rejection rate you end up with a higher quality product faster and cheaper than CNC.

although the final cost per part depends on mold complexity and the overall part rejection rate per pour. this is the reason BorgWarner had to switch to sand casting for the EFR series compressor and turbine housings... their initial foundry went out of business and the foundries they used afterwards couldn't match quality and volume due to a different mold production method which led to an overly high rejection rate (i heard as high as 70-80% depending on the housing being cast)

this is why there was a huge delay with releasing the first consumer orders as BorgWarner was losing too much money on the casting process due to the rejection rate and thus couldn't produce units in the volume required so they had to redesign their housings for the sand casting method, retool to produce the new molds, and change casting methods.


Although depending on how complex your designs are it might be physically impossible to cast them and you'd have no choice but to machine them from raw billet, unless you can redesign the part for it to be able to be cast without a big impact on the performance of the part as it was originally designed. again this is what BorgWarner ran into with the EFR line.

What I am curious about is based off of the photos (and since we can't see the backside of the cover) it appears to only be half of the volute except for the few inches before the outlet correct? what are you doing for the other half of the volute, the cover diffuser, the CHRA backplate, and a mounting solution?

0MIR Engineering

Yes, not being the person who does the actual design work and seeing the hours they put in to make the drawing correct and the incredible attention to every detail on this, I would say if I were to have to do it, I would be slamming my head on my desk all day long. Thank God my job is to chat with you fellas and create websites as well as play with Turbochargers!

0MIR Engineering

We are not releasing the interior pictures of the cover, for the moment just trust me when I say its sexy. How bout I put a picture up here in a little bit for ya?