BlueShadow

Hello everyone!!! long time no speak.

I have a general FI question about MHI turbos and swapping out the compressor housings and what all is possible. The turbo is a TD04-19T or TD04LB-19TK35-10T. Based on that info alone is it possible to tell what the compressor housing can be swapped out to? i've seen bigger compressor wheels for it, bigger wheels and a machined compressor housing but i haven't seen anything about a bigger housing. I thought that the DSM/EVO/WRX forums might be a better place to ask the question but i've been out of cars for like the last 15 years and the only good site i remember was H-T and NASOIC.

TIA

BlueShadow

Gonna go to bed soon but i had one last question but i'm a bit rusty on my turbo know-how. But typically what happens when you try to run a compressor wheel or housing that is much too large for the turbine housing/wheel? does the turbine end up becoming a restriction? higher EGT?

extremeracer

I don't think there's a huge variety of TD04 compressor housings in terms of size - perhaps just volute length and provision for integrated BOV or not (Volvo/Saab/BMW versus Subaru). What is your reasoning to change compressor housings ? Is it to make room for a larger compressor wheel ?

Anything bigger than a 20T (47 - 50mm inducer) needs to move to a TD05 frame in any case, where you can run the bigger comp exducer (68 vs 58mm) and larger turbine wheel too.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The Evolution/MHI forums aren't going to be much more help except for what they remember fitting in their TD04L or TD04H housings. In the MHI world, the nomenclature for the compressor housings and wheels are completely different than in Garrett, Holset, or BW world, where there are some commonalities in terms of parts design and interchange-ability. In most cases with the MHI world, there's no advantage to using a larger compressor cover on the same size wheel; they keep their housing/wheel configurations pretty consistent and efficient. But the key is that the compressor housing still has to be profiled to that specific wheel , whether or not the housing is larger or smaller. If the housing is much larger than the compressor wheel without it being profiled, you'll just create a large gap in the compressor inlet, and basically no longer have the ability to convert the inlet airflow into pressurized air to go into the intercooler. The clearances have to be tight enough to allow the conversion, but loose enough to fit the backwall of the compressor wheel properly.

Yes, the turbine wheel won't be able to keep up with the volume of pressurized air that the engine is attempting to combust. Instead of getting "big" power with "quick spool", you wind up with neither characteristic. The general rule of thumb is that there shouldn't be anymore than a 30% size differential between the compressor wheel exducer and the exhaust wheel overall diameter (depending upon wheel profile).

Here's a small brief regarding MHI turbocharger nomenclature that was created a while back. It gives an explanation of all of the main MHI turbochargers that were used in OEM sizes (it does not list the make/model vehicle it was designed for), and it even has a chart of almost every MHI OEM compressor/turbine combination that has been available since the late 1990s, although I'm sure they've stopped production on a few models. It's in .PDF format for you to download so that you can get your calipers out and start measuring. I hope this is of good benefit to you.

Good luck to you!!

MHI Nomenclature and what to know

DaX

iTrader: (1)

The worst of both worlds!

BlueShadow

Thanks extremeracer and TheShodan,

As far as the compressor housing upgrade goes its assuming that the appropriate compressor wheel is picked to go with the housing. I'm just not sure what the biggest size compressor housing is available that can be matched up to a TD04. I thought i read that the 19T (compressor i have now) is the biggest that is usually mated up to a TD04. I know of 20G and i think 25G's but i've only ever see them on TD05's which matches up with what extremeracer mentioned about 20T and higher can only go on TD05's.

The car in question is a Camaro 2.0L turbo (car i have now) and thats the one that has the TD04-19T i was talking about. I think that 08+ WRX's also have the same stock turbo. I dont know if its related to the turbo sizing or what, but i think that Camaro's 2.0's do have heat related/heat soaked issues. I was unsure if i should mod out the stock turbo and keep it mild or go all out and just get something like a Borg Warner 6758, 7163 or a 7670. Sorry i had to bug you all with a non-honda turbo related question, but i wasnt getting any answers on the Camaro forum.

Balor_Gr

19t is already big enough for the turbine wheel.
Turbine wheel works as a lever the bigger it is the easier it rotates the shaft and the compressor wheel.
The biger the compressor wheel the bigger its trying to"brake" the turbine wheel. And the bigger (back)pressure it creates inside
the manifold which creates a good 1243213421 problems. So first move would be to get 1 step bigger turbine wheel and the housing machine for it.
You can get a bigger a/r turbine housing but it will probably have both hot flanges different.
You probably(?) have the divided turbo version of this engine right?
What is your budget and whats your target?

BlueShadow

Ohh its not a budget/target thing..i just wanted to see what all was possible with the stock turbo (which is a twin scroll). So far we have bigger compressor wheels and stock comp. housing, and also bigger comp. wheel and machined inner comp. housing. I was wondering if anyone had tried a bigger comp. housing but i didnt realize that 19T was already pretty big and i didnt know about small turbine/big comp. housing issues before i started looking into this. There are no options as far as aftermarket turbo manifolds for this car. Its either stock manifold, get a place to make you a one-off manifold or there's one place (that sells a BW 7670 setup) that has a manifold AND turbine combined into one.

extremeracer

The TD04HL-19T is a great turbo for a 2.0 litre production car but it is already at the limit of what the housing configurations can allow. Think of it as a factory MHI upgrade to the run-of-the-mill TD04's found in Subarus and non high power Saabs. You can go to a 50mm wheel (billed as an upgrade for the 20T) and switch to a 9-blade turbine wheel but the gains will be marginal.

Does this engine use a one-piece turbine housing and manifold design ? Can you split the turbine housing from the manifold ?

BlueShadow

Since its at its limit it sounds like i'll just get a bigger turbo instead of trying to squeeze a bit more out of the stock turbo. As far as the stock setup goes its a separate turbine housing and separate turbo manifold. There is a place that sells the Borg Warner 6758/7163 turbo and i think it bolts right up to the stock turbo manifold. But the one i think i will end up getting is a Borg Warner 7670 from a place called Trifecta Performance in Washington. Below is a link to the turbo setup with some info. And this is the one that has a turbine housing AND manifold combined into one piece. In the pic the stock 19t is on the left with the EFR7670 on the right.

https://www.trifectaperformance.com/...g-500whp-r118/

Balor_Gr

Youre best best without braking the bang would be to get a TD05 from an evo 7-10 ( check the condition if you get aused one)
Get 2 flanges on for you divided manifold and one for the evo turbo inlet and get a welder make you (its not that tought really and not expensive) a flange to flange adapter.
Youll keep your money and you will upgrade to a better platform with a 49/56 turbine wheel capable of running 500 maxed ( with the 12cm evo x housing, 450 with the 10.5)
using an 20G 52/68 compressor wheel.
Option B would be to still get that flange to flange adapter and get a t4 0.8 a/r efr 7164 DIVIDED turbo from BW.
You wont like that 7670 with the open manifold...
You wont like loosing twin scroll with what ever turbo you choose since you allready have a divided setup with smaller turbo.

extremeracer

That manifold is a nice kit. I agree the 7163 in twin-scroll format would be load of fun and keep some of the quick boost response the stock car has. The Subaru STI guys have reported virtually no loss in response switching from their stock small IHI turbo to a EFR7163 whilst that turbo can be wound up to over 500whp.

@Balor_Gr are you sure this TD04HL-19T is reverse rotation ? I know the McLaren and 4-cyl BMW units are, but IIRC the Volvo 19T was standard rotation. If it is reverse rotation then your suggestion of an Evo 4-9 TD05 makes good sense - you can even build a TD06SL2 in a TD05 housing with a 20G wheel or GTX30 profile wheel. But remember the Evo 4-7 is reverse rotation and the Evo X is standard rotation - so components are cross compatible.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

19Ts are standard rotation compressor wheels. i used to modify thise wheels into 2002 boxer subarus, as an upgrade

BlueShadow

Yup I am pretty much going back and forth between the 7163 and 7670. I'm afraid of going with the 7670 i think for the reasons the Balor mentioned. Since i'm still a few years away from getting the turbo anyways it will give me a lot of time to research and compare the two. Good thing is i can do bolt ons and whatever DP i get should still work with either the 7163 or 7670.

Balor_Gr

I was saying for him to keep the turbo manifold and make an adapter flange for an Evo turbocharger not just the turbine wheel so otation wont matter really.

Going from an OEM twin scroll/divided steup to an open scroll big turbo will transform the car spool wise a lot... Yes power will be made, a lot of it but youll changing two things, that make daily cars fun, at the same time.
What ever turbo youll gonna get make sure youll using a divided setup if youre going big turbo.7163 with the divided housing is the only big turbo id ever use with a low rpm engine. Unless you go for a G25-550 .92 A/R aaaaannnnd thats it.
Honda guys dont care about spool too much because civics are light and move out of boost ok.And because full boost at 5000rpm with a 9500 rev limit is not a big deal really. Full boost at 5000 with a 7500 rev limit is a totaly different thing...
On a low rpm non forged engine with upgraded valve sptings etc etc, youll hate the jump from a spool happy setup to a "big" turbo "i dont care about spool setup". Unless you plan on upgrading the engine to raise rpm later.

BlueShadow

As far as spooling goes I was thinking about using SR20DET's for reference with that since my engine probably has more in common with that (flow-wise) vs a B or K series.