ballistic1350

iTrader: (7)

I was asking about them in another thread and figured I'd just start a new thread.
1. What kind of difference in spool can be achieved with one compared to the normal MAC solenoid?
2. What are the real differences between all the options out there... seems like every company is on the 6th version?
3. Why would I need one?

Anyone with personal experience with a certain model feel free to say something.
The last thread I've seen on ebcs was a 10 year old thread so I'm sure there are plenty of new changes out there

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

The problem with ecu based boost control is that it was more of an afterthought. it's simply a few lines of code and a couple mathematical equations the ecu uses to control solenoid duty.

the problem is most aftermarket ecus are limited in their processing power, especially compared to the new generations of OEM ecus that can process a nearly endless amount of commands per second. so now you have this ecu that has limited power that not only has to run a motor but control boost pressure as well across a broad operation range.

the solenoids being used aren't that precise as well, at least not the ones available in the price range of your typical automotive enthusiast. the Mac solenoid started life as an industrial application that someone just happened to figure out would work in an automotive application, same thing with the gm solenoid.

a standalone controller does nothing but control boost levels. so every bit of available processor power goes towards that task. hence they do a much better job. also they tend to use much higher quality solenoids. the majority of the cost associated with a standalone controller is the solenoid. circuit boards are incredibly cheap to produce in bulk, the solenoids are not.

so you end up with a 300 dollar solenoid and a 100 dollar circuit board with a standalone controller as opposed to a 1200 dollar ecu and a 50 dollar industrial solenoid. big difference.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Great points but stand alone boost controllers aren't aware of gear or rpm limiting, you to static boost targets. Are there any stand alones that can do boost by gear?
I also want to point out a lot of the stand alones use the same MAC solenoid too.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

You are correct, most standalones are simply boost vs time. a few like the nlr and world electronics or whatever Chris Rados company is called offer timer and gear based control.

for most setups the Mac solenoid and ecu control gets the job done. then there are those setups that have endless issues using a standard setup, that's when a high end solenoid and standalone controller tend to resolve issues.

if the frequency of the solenoid is known then I don't see why ecu controlled setups couldn't use a high end solenoid. most ecu software allows you to input the frequency of the solenoid.

the nice thing about the nlr setup is it uses an onboard high pressure nitrogen canister to control wastegate travel. an idea for street cars would be to use a small compressor and small volume tank (about a quart) our friend with a lotus exige has a Quaife 6spd sequential transmission with a shiftek air shifting system that uses an onboard compressor and small tank, just enough to supply the shift solenoid with air for about 100 shifts before the compressor kicks in. something that size would be perfect for the nlr system, the tank is bigger than a softball but smaller than a soccer ball and you could mount it anywhere.

I haven't looked at the new profec system yet. the nlr and world electronics systems aren't the cheapest things in the world but they certainly get the job done.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

But if you look at the typical turbo street car boost by gear isn't really needed. given that street driving is mostly low load you'd never be able to push the car hard enough (legally) on your typical surface street and on the highway you aren't in a low enough gear to have traction issues (unless you are making absurd amounts of power or have shitty bricks for tires)

I could see the merits of boost by gear for high power drag car where traction is an issue off the line and in the first few hundred feet but on the street it's just a little excessive IMO.

and with your typical standalone controller having a low setting, a high setting, and a scramble boost feature you can have one setting for wet weather/street tires, the high setting for dry weather/sticky tires and then have the scramble boost option when you feel like having a little fun.

I personally don't think people should use boost by gear as a bandaid for poor driving skills or poor chassis setup and tire selection but that's just me... most traction issues can be solved with the use of proper tire sizing, tire pressure, and tire compound along with proper alignment, corner balancing, and damper settings (although I've noticed most of these concepts evade most people, especially when it comes to proper suspension tuning)

I was fortunate to work with and be mentored by some of the most brilliant minds in the suspension game with companies like Ohlins and Penske. it's to the point now where someone can give me their weight, what a bike is doing, and with a simple bounce of the suspension system I can tell if the spring rates, preload, or settings are off.

sane with cars, when I'm at the track most of what I do is read tire temps, pressures, and wear patterns along with driver feedback and I'll then adjust tire pressure and damper settings and have them do another session, then I get their feedback along with more tire temps and pressures and go from there. I literally help everyone, even my friends call me a black art wizard lol.

I also try to help people on here with tire and suspension issues, I get tons of PMs asking for feedback about a setup and the issues it's having... so if anyone has questions or needs help with tire choices and suspension settings don't hesitate to ask. if I can't help you I know someone who can lol.

scottdh20

I have been thinking to move to a mac solenoid because of the streets and track. currently on a dual stage that uses a toggle switch between on low and high boost, which works ok for a street psi and drag strip psi. I can get HOT tires(nt01) to hook on low boost on the street...if the tire is cold at all it spins once boost hits, that's at only 15psi on the holset. down low im fine and can modulate the throttle well enough mixed with lag to hook up. but even a 1-2pull it spins in the upper rpms. third hooks just fine. I would like to ramp up to full boost to keep times more consistant both on the street, drag and road courses.

I have seen some ebc's that have a different type of ramp styles, forgive me for being a bit noobish here as I haven't done much research. but they use boost by time iirc, which some argue is a better way to control boost. and like stated before use better components. im still torn and I guess I need to do some more searching till I figure out which will be better for my application and budget

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Yea most standalones have a method of control that allows you to regulate how fast boost builds, they simply do this by sending pressure to the gate sooner so you start to bypass exhaust around the turbine wheel, delaying the point at which full pressure is made.

you can do this with most ecu boost control setups by playing with the solenoid duty cycle at certain rpm/load points but it's much more labor intensive to set it up correctly vs the more "point and click" method the standalone controllers use.

scottdh20

so its creating more lag essentially? that seems like a silly way to control boost, unless I am understanding incorrectly

I think for my setup limiting boost to 12psi in first, 16psi in second, not sure on third/fourth but mid to upper twenties. simply lets me put more power down without creating more lag. these pressure would all hook no problem on my "dot approved" r-comp. tire. I know its not the best strait line tire but its my road racing setup and works very well at that. will eventually get a street setup with a strait line inspired r-comp tire up front.

I have tried modulating the throttle to control power and keep traction, the holset comes on very violently. it hooks the 15 psi, holds it throughout the rpms and someplace between 6500-7k it just looses it and spins in second. seems like bbg would make it very simple to control that

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Actually not as many as you think.. They look like they're using the Mac solenoid , but actually use a Mac casing. This went for the older GReddy units as well. They use a Denso solenoid that has much faster moving actuators to allow better boost control and gain. (I remember discussing this with you before about g0at's GSC Camshaft setup.)

Even the older Apex'i AVC-R had Gear-based RPM and speed limited RPM, but was very confusing to control, and the older processors at the time took awhile for the learning curve to figure it out. With the newer versions of the AVC-R, they got much faster to learn on the dyno, and are now a bit easier to learn to use. But people on this forum still avoid them due to the higher cost.

What the laptop-based MAC solenoids DON'T have are independent boost limiters that control how to eliminate overboost. Even the older GReddy Profec B spec II has two presets you can use that have limiters on each, in which you can even determine what percentage you want the pressure to lower to in case you overboost so it doesn't feel like you hit a wall when you hit the limiter. (That's a story I'll tell you about that happened to me during an event where the limiter was set soft, and I thought something was wrong with the car.)

The MAC -based laptop controllers also don't have a GAIN feature. Hondata is attempting to use its "quick spool" option via the computer, but because they're still using the same solenoid, it doesn't have the same responsivness that the GReddy, Apex'i, and HKS have for forcing the valve of the wastegate (by using high frequency solenoid activation) for the wastegate to open at the very last minute, based upon the signal. This was why g0at was able to get to full boost pressure of 20psi faster than Muckman did..

Now, These Japanese standalone controllers, may have independent brain-sensors, but they don't have the features that many on Honda-tech want for use of drag racing, such as Boost-By-Gear, and 2-step and other features of the like. Because of this, their popularity has really waned over the years for Hondas, but other makes and models still use them efficiently and aggressively for street and street/circuit uses.

Example of the 3 part system of the 2013 GReddy Profec



I'll give the American OEM credit where it is due. Their turbo applications from the 90's may be ancient, but their electronics in the engine bay never seem to fail to amaze me with the amount of abuse they can take. These bad-boys can fit ANYWHERE in the engine bay and don't worry about overheating, loss of signal, etc. And the best part is, you can get them through a performance shop or O'Reilly's just the same.. IF you know the right application it came from. Just like the GM 3Bar MAP sensors that were used on Camaros an T/As in the 1990s-2000s, the sensors are pretty robust and actuate even better than the MACs (from my experience).

I'll see if I can list here the main boost controllers and the solenoids they are integrated with most common. There may be a question mark (?) on a couple that I can't confirm, but I'll update as we go along

Remember, its not just about the number of Ports that can determine its capabilities. I've had many a GReddy solenoid (Technically a 3-port) work to over 50psi of boost pressure on a single gate, and used with twin applications. Like Muckman always says. "Its all about how its setup"/

AEM - Mac Solenoid rebadged(Their TruBoost really is a duty-cycle only based solenoid that just happens to allow you to control it within the car.)

AEM/MAC Solenoid




Motec - GM solenoid , Chrysler solenoids used

Chrysler solenoid


Hondata - 3Port MAC solenoid but can be configured to use Chrysler solenoids that work faster than the MAC, all with a click of the default setting on an S-Manager

MAC solenoid


Grimmspeed - 3 port MAC solenoid rebadged



COBB Tuning - Mitsubishi 3 port solenoid actuators, looks a LOT like a MAC upper casing



GReddy Profec/Profec B Spec II/Profec E-01 - Denso solenoid

ProfecB Spec II Solenoid (also fit Spec II and E-01)



2013 Profec Solenoid on the right, compared to Spec II on the left. No longer uses bigger casing


Apex Integration - Denso Solenoid (Confirmed by Masaki Nakayama)

Denso Solenoids




HKS EVC S & EVC VI Denso Solenoid (Confirmed by Hideki Kaniguchi)

EVC S Solenoid


EVC 5 & 6 Solenoids


Kinugawa - Looks like a Denso solenoid, but could be something else ?

Blitz SBC Series - Spec S used a Single (Toyota-Denso)? Automotive solenoid, SBC ID had twin Denso solenoids in a different package

Dual Denso Solenoid


Single OEM Toyota/Denso Solenoid



*Added bonus* Ford Focus RS and Cosworth Solenoid

I plan to use this for my Focus ST project.

ballistic1350

iTrader: (7)

So after a little research, the only one that allows a boost by gear setup aside from my hondata with MAC solenoid is the incredibly expensive AMS 1000? Can that really be it? I'd like the GAIN feature with the ability of boost by gear

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Hehe. on the Japanese units, you can toggle between low/high, and even turn a small **** to adjust anything in between those settings. The GReddy even has a "scramble" remote button on the steering wheel you can get, but some people make their own toggles.

The older BLITZ SBC ID (lots of Nissan guys loved these) has 4 preset boost pressure levels you could toggle between with a time-enable "Scramble" option. Meaning that you can hit the "scramble" button for a set number of seconds, and it would go BACK to the lower boost setting. This was really popular in Touge racing , and is still used on Time Attack. You can even adjust it for "fall off" of boost pressure to keep it consistent.

For example. I'll have it on my low setting at about 17psi on 93 octane. If its colder that day, and I'm slightly going over that, a couple clicks down on the ****, I'm at 15psi, since the tune on 93 octane was from 1psi-17psi 18psi on 93octane.

If I'm running C16, (since I tuned for that for anything over 18psi-26psi), I go to my high boost setting. (again, touch of a button) and I go to about 23-26psi... I'm on ONE "map" for my Power FC, so as long as I know I'm on C16 that day, I can toggle over..

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

That's the thing, you can't get inexpensive without changing to a more accurate higher-frequency solenoid. This is why Hondata is attempting it with their "quick spool" option, but its not that great. Because the solenoid itself is the limiting factor.

Boost-by-gear or responsive "Gain"... can't really have both without deeper pockets.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I've never understood why the Honda camp has moved away from standalone boost controllers.

the whole point of the gain feature is to reduce the severity of how fast boost builds. on some setups the time it takes to reach the positive pressure threshold and then full boost is so severe and rapid that it causes a sudden violent torque increase which is what causes traction issues. if you have a much more gradual, controlled pressure increase then you can almost eliminate any traction issues since the torque curve develops like a large naturally aspirated motor as opposed to a high strung small displacement motor.

ballistic1350

iTrader: (7)

So you really think the boost by gear option isn't needed for higher power street cars? There must be a reason why so many use it, other than the lower price tag compared to a standalone controller

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

No.. That's not what I what I said. Not at all. I said that because the turbocharged Honda crowd is more directed towards drag racing, that's where the majority of control devices are focusing their attention and where users go to for its solutions; no different than a specifically sized turbocharger, a solenoid can only do so much w/ so many items attached to it. So, either Boost-by-gear, or effective gain control.. Can't have both and be inexpensive too.

So, you have to balance cost, usability with their management, and quality of the components (which affect cost). Since most are looking for a cost-effective item for drag racing, the MAC solenoid solutions are used more often. But that's on you to decide. It just needs to be known that even the older Japanese companies have paved the way for solutions long before Hondata and AEM have but its not in everyone's knowledge base because people here generally run their turbo Hondas for the same purpose. There are just as many people both inside and outside the Honda camp that use these more expensive versions more than you think. If they didn't, well, these still wouldn't be sold to the public anymore either.

Ask a Time Attack or road racer the same questions regarding a high-horsepowered turbo Honda, and they'll tell you boost-by-gear isn't as much a priority, because throttle control, quick accessibility to change boost settings, and ease of use without having to worry about which engine management is used, is more important to them. They've addressed the traction and tyre issues with mechanical LSDs, better partial throttle driving, and the need for the boost controller to not interfere with their driving style, because they'll be on a variety of courses, weather conditions and tracks. The same goes with those of other platforms, like AWD, and RWD. Many overseas regardless of make use these standalones with great success, and continue to do so. Because their driving experiences and needs are different.


The majority of the Honda Turbo crowd deals with the effects of being FWD, while driving a vehicle that's been made to make over 400x its original intent in a straight line.. So, the options that you're seeing focus on the fact that boost control can be an effective way to change the negative effects that traction, suspension changes and other aspects (both as an advantage and disadvantage) that being FWD and 500whp + can present. They have to be accounted for in drag racing and "spirited" street driving.

Being a high-powered honda alone isn't the reason why Boost-by-gear is used. Its nice, but that's if you're into the kind of driving it was designed for, and have done all you can as a driver to control these effects.


Others similar to myself may have more experience in FWD driving platforms and like better throttle control to all the car to do what the car needs to do, because responsiveness in their driving style is more important to them. I know that may not make sense to you, but corner grip grip driving, and straight-line racing have similar priorities with some extremely significant differences.

Lastly, FEAR. Because many of the tuners that are around today were barely around when these other standalone controllers were introduced, (if at all still), most remembered these standalone systems as being complicated and hard to work with. They really weren't (except for the AVC-R.. Boy, I remember that one.. ) but they did take a learning curve to completely understand. Worse yet, they couldn't explain it well to the end-user. Something that end-users today don't really want to deal with even though it could benefit them greatly. Mainly.."Because it looks complicated" or "that's not what everyone I know uses anymore" etc. . If the purpose is the same as theirs, sure.. Otherwise, its really simply a "fear of failure" that keeps them from using it when its not that complicated. Just read the instructions and work with it.

Funny enough, as these got easier to tune with, they also got more expensive for the consumer, and so once again, since the tuner has to eat too, and needed to get to the next car, they just went with the majority of what honda drag racers requested and went with the laptop-based control. I know a few tuners right now who know exactly how these systems work again, after a few minutes of getting re-acquainted with them. Its like riding a bike; you don't forget.

That need for just laptop control has slowed a bit, but you'd be surprised how many people would rather purchase a new wastegate (or a second one) to eliminate certain boost response or overboost issues, when a better boost controller (if it fit their driving styles) could eliminate those same certain issues.

Its just a matter of where people want to spend their money at that point and the purpose of the car.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Yes, you're understanding it incorrectly. What wantboost is trying to say is that "the whole point of the gain feature is to control the severity of how fast boost builds". For most people that use them they want to increase the severity of boost response... by holding the wastegate closed until the last second before target boost is reached, it actually can decrease spool time to make a larger turbo respond faster (within reason, of course).

Your example, is as I stated above, the typical "drag race, FWD , No traction-straight line" scenario. In your case, Boost-by-gear will be beneficial to you as you're trying to use boost pressure to control the amount of exhaust that's bypassed based upon the gear of the transmission. The standalone versions can help reduce that traction issue overall but only with subtle "gain" control, and not by each gear (with the exception of the APexi' AVC-R, which still has a learning curve when trying to adjust with it both by the user, and the software.).

This is where the Boost-by-gear Hondata may be more for your type of racing. Smaller roads, daily driving activities with changes in weather conditions (which can cause too much dense air to enter and create an overboost condition) is where the standalones come in simply and user-adjustment friendly.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

And again I've noticed that Honda people use boost by gear as a bandaid to cover up a total lack of driving skills (let's face it, drag racing isn't the most driver demanding sport), the use of improper tires for the purpose, and a total lack of anything resembling suspension tuning.

refining these 3 areas can eliminate traction issues if you know what you're doing.

also the use of adaptive 4 wheel monitoring traction control can seamlessly eliminate traction issues with no degradation in performance and eliminating boost by gear takes some of the complexity out of setting up a car because you have to play with solenoid duty across a broad rpm and load range and getting that right can be a total bitch.

2000CTRSi

Quick read over but in most cases with the aem ems and aem solenoid I have made 1000 rpm sooner spool sometimes more with proper duty cycle map tuning for the solenoid... not to mention boost taper and other variables like traction ctrl being beneficial. Sorry if out of context.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Its not completely out of context, but you're looking at SIMPLY the solenoid duty cycle. the fact that it can help with the wastegate valves actuation is a given. The question about the "GAIN" feature was really more of fine tuning areas outside of simply changing behavior by duty cycle alone. The traction control and all that stuff for FWD is something that can be address by several areas in addition to the features the laptop can control. It can control a lot, but the solenoid itself has physical limitations in terms of frequency of actuation to control the valve.

Tony the Tiger

To add onto this discussion, boost by gear is only one form of power reduction... At the lower gears, it is usually due to the sudden rise of power that makes a turbo Honda spin. It's difficult to control how hard the boost hits from the turbo by boost solenoid only. Especially with the newer billet turbos these days, the compressor is so much more efficient than the turbine that it makes this an almost impossible feat.

On my own cars, I would have gear-based timing retard and have a tuned RPM/boost curve so that I can limit power for 1st/2nd gear on top of boost by gear. The timing greatly helps with controlling the initial torque hit, and still be able to keep a much stiffer base WG spring. Usually about 6-8 deg of retard can drop you down 80-120 WHP at the lower boost regions. With larger turbo cars, the huge retarded timing not only limits power, but also generates tons of exhaust energy so that your next gear comes in with less lag.

It's a blend between the gear-based timing correction vs boost/RPM vs gear-based boost. I usually have my EMS control the gear-based timing and main timing functions, but a separate EBC like an E-Boost2 or an APEXi AVCR to do the RPM-based boost. On my Camry, I also have a Racelogic TCS on top of all this, just so that I can hook with cold tires or unpredictable pavement. For reference, the car makes 1028 WHP at full hit, but effective power in 1st gear is about 500WHP, 2nd is about 800WHP and 3rd+ is full power. It was easy to log this on the dyno with different gears during the runs.

The extent of timing retard you can safely run does depend on your motor and turbo setup. You will for sure need your tuner to set it up for you so the car still runs plenty safe with the retarded timing. Excessive retarded timing is just as harsh on the engine and turbo components.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Although I do believe the fact that compressor and turbine wheel changes they have developed over the last several years to be much more efficient than before,I do not believe that they are to a point in which EBC standalone boost controllers cannot effectively control them. I think it is because that lack of timing retardation in lower gears is the main reason why so many people in the Honda world experience "boost creep "on exhaust manifold and wastegate combinations that have been effective and used for over 15 years, and not just some teardrop design "flaw" that everyone seems to use as an excuse as to why their turbo charger is not controlling boost effectively.

To me, for most people it seems as though additional wastegates & solenoids (be it the additional number of ports or actual solenoids) is always the answer to their boost control issues when in actuality it is a tuning issue that causes this in the name of dyno numbers. I just wasn't sure exactly how the tuning issue was to be properly changed for desired results.

I understand completely about the possibility that timing changes within the map is essential in making sure that boost control is proper. in the end, I believe these changes are far more important than even the type of boost controller that one decides to use.

tepid1

I'm gonna watch this for a little while and I may contribute.... I need to chose my words wisely....

As for the AMS-1000 and 2000, it uses a dual Humphrey solenoid setup. One to feed and one to bleed. There are many selectable and combined smart strategies compared to other methods.

supahotfire

if i have the aem ems v1, could i buy the aem boost module, would i still need a controller. is it worth it, since i have the ecu.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

That depends upon the purpose of the car, and what you feel is "worth it". I have equally as many people running on AEM EMS (especially the v1) using independent electronic control as they do the integrated boost control with the Mac Solenoid.

On average, more V2 users utilize the integrated control vs. the V1 users.

supahotfire

if you dont mind me asking. what ebc you are using with your aem ems. is the wideband worth having, i guess only if i decided to tune myself?