FULLTHROTTLE

I decided to finally convert the Hellement to E-85 today like I have been talking about for months. I should have done it a while ago.

As some of you know E-85 (85% Ethanol and 15% Gasoline) is available at gas stations pretty much everywhere. The popularity of the fuel is growing slowly but has made the performance community boom becasue of its low cost octane abilities. It is effectively 105 octane fuel for around $2 a gal vs. 104 Octane race gas for nearly $6 a gal. It stores less energy than conventional fuel so engine management is required to do this correctly. I have Hondat K-Pro so tuning it for ethanol was easy.

I ran it as low as possible on gas before I put it on the dyno, filled it up with E-85 and began tuning. Overall it took about 25% more fuel to get the correct air fuel ratio of around 12:1 (under boost). After about two hours and 10-15 dyno pulls as well as some part throttle changeover runs and messing around with the VTEC my results were more than positive and much better than expected. I have attached a dyno sheet to help explain the differences in gas and Ethanol as seen by a tuner. I made HUGE changes to my timing curve to gain big numbers in torque and HP. As some of you know I was having terrible detonation issues in Vegas at the E-Meet last year. This should clear those up as well as give me some extra advantage at the track.

The lowly yellow line at the bottom is my baseline pull when the E was stock. Just a control line to measure my results against.

The next line up was my best numbers from march 07 when I first built the turbo kit. Since then it has not been on the dyno at all and has gone through extensive street and track tuning. I would have to guess I have about 20-30 hours of tuning into this program total. The very top line is the most current tune with E-85. I expect to get about 12-14 miles per gallon tops with this setup. But to justify it and make myself feel better about visiting the pump more often, I just say, its (sort of) good for the environment right? But my real motivation is the tuneability and availability of this green race-gas.

Data:
2003 Honda Element (stock engine, really, no kidding)
TC's Performance Turbo kit, air/water aftercooler, Hondata K-Pro
RC Eng 750 CC injectors @ 80% duty cycle max measurement
E-85 ethanol/gasoline mix
10 psi boost measured at intake manifold
dyno tuned at 5800 FASL on a dynapack hub dyno
Baseline power (stock) 131 whp 136 TQ
Gasoline power (10 psi) 346 whp 337 TQ
E-85 power (10 psi) 391 whp 401 TQ

I tried to get it to the 400 whp mark without changing the boost level but it just couldnt get there. Sorry. After I clean up a few projects around here and make some more cashola the motor will come out and get built. I also have an experimental cylinder head combo I am going to try with cams as well. I dont think this turbo will be able to go a whole lot higher (notice how early it boosts?) but it should be good for 450 wheel power for sure. What suprised me is the huge torque jump I got early in the rev band. The ethanol and timing changes made the turbo spool MUCH faster than previously. My wastegate is opening at 3800 RPM indicating full boost. Crazy.




Modified by FULLTHROTTLE at 3:23 PM 1/19/2008

HiProfile

I'd almost suggest raising boost until you split the difference in the timing. Meaning if you went from 16* in one load point to 20*, raise boost til that rpm spot is at 18*. You're nowhere near the limit on E85, as I've seen plenty of 2.0L motors hit 400 on just 93 octane. 400whp would be 'easy' to get, since you still have ~10% of the injectors left until it becomes unsafe.

All in all, looks like another fast corn-burner Thanks for documenting it.

FULLTHROTTLE

Im out of load points to tune as it is. At 10 psi and a stock map sensor I cannot raise the boost any more without changing to a 3 bar map. Its already asking a lot of the bone stock K24 rods to do this. I have 20k miles on this setup already, Im looking to go another season or at least half a season before I build it and change to the Gt30R and build the bottom end.

Oh, I just realized I am right on the verge of increasing the stock HP by 300% LOL!!!

B20luda

i want to see some video of this thing...haha

FULLTHROTTLE

Perfect light video from 07 season at Bandimere speedway in Denver.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjXasLK05i8

Kevin

Nice numbers....any pics of the vehicle?

SOHC_MShue

lol that element has gotta be fun

FULLTHROTTLE

And an underhood shot for good measure....



Modified by FULLTHROTTLE at 7:05 PM 1/19/2008


Modified by FULLTHROTTLE at 9:22 PM 1/20/2008

.nate

Old motor shot? I see a FMIC and a air to water...

Looks really good...


Modified by .nate at 7:56 AM 1/20/2008

Tippyman

Bad ******* ***.


Modified by Tippyman at 2:13 PM 1/20/2008

FULLTHROTTLE

Good eye. It is a front mount I welded tanks onto to use as a heat exchanger for the air/water. Because of its size it is more than 100% efficient. Today after about 12 dyno pulls with just fans running on it, my intake air temps were still about 10 degrees above ambient. (which was about 45 today) During a pull I never saw above 73 degrees.

Joseph Davis

If this is your idea of a daily driver I want to see a racecar.

93CX

I love it

spoonhatchblack

correct me if i'm wrong...
I Don't recall any Elements w/Manual Trans....@ all..Unless you Did the Convert>>
4 an Clean Element.

kawgomoo

i dont think it has an fmic and a/w ic on there. i think the "fmic" is the ac condenser.

isnt 12:1 awfully lean on e85? i thought stoich for e85 was 9.8:1

is e85 always 85/15? i was under the impression that it contains <U></U> as much as <U></U> 85% alcohol. i know there are winter and summer formulations, just curious how stable the fuel chemistry is over the long run.

redzcstandardhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spoonhatchblack &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">correct me if i'm wrong...
I Don't recall any Elements w/Manual Trans....@ all..Unless you Did the Convert&gt;&gt;
4 an Clean Element.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well, my buddy just bought a 5 speed AWD element...

and its never been modified..... they are so cool... i want one.

rorik

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FULLTHROTTLE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I expect to get about 12-14 miles per gallon tops with this setup. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Definitely a unique project, I like it. Why do you expect to get such lousy fuel economy? What did the element get stock? I thought that you would be able to recover a fair amount of the mileage loss from the reduced btu content of the fuel by running leaner than stoich with more timing. Now if you're just talking about the mileage reflecting your driving, then ok..

Joseph Davis

They aren't great on gas, IIRC, low 20's at best. If he's getting 12-14 mpg part of that is requiring 20-30% more fuel because he's running E85, and the rest is from raping it.

You can run leaner than stoich if you want, but that doesn't help your fuel economy. It takes a certain airmass being burned to maintain a cruise, which requires a fixed amount of fuel to be burned, and if you run leaner you just have to introduce more airmass to get the same amount of air and fuel burned as you would in the first place if tuned stoich. But now you do it with higher chamber temps, increased NOx gas production, etc. This is not a stratified chamber, intelligent EGR, or lean burn architecture engine that is designed for lean conditions while being e-friendly.

rorik

I always thought that running slightly less fuel with more air was more efficient due to increased dynamic compression. I've read that e85 has a much wider range of tolerable ratios than straight gas, and that you can get a noticeable amount of the mpg back by tuning accordingly. But I have zero personal experience with this.

Sorry, don't mean to thread jack here, either..

FULLTHROTTLE

The stock setup got between 19-21 mpg on average. (even when turbocharged and raped) I have to run between 25-30% more fuel volume to get the same air/fuel ratios. Thus the drop in fuel economy. Now if you figure it like GM does, you can split the alcohol and gasoline up and only figure the mileage for the amount of gasoline I am using, so.....* carry the 4 *...... Im getting 153 miles to the gallon (of gas) :D

Joseph Davis

I'm not following what you mean by increased dynamic compression, but it's also past my bedtime and my attention span/ability to concentrate is hamburger. Alcohols all run cooler close to stoich when compared to iso-octane based gasolines, I've read a bunch of conjecture on the subject which I'm happy to share but nothing concrete. Hit my PMs if you feel we're thread jacking.

rorik

Well, the o.p. got into it, so maybe a few more exchanges won't be considered thread jacking..

Let us know what you think about this..
A diesel has a really high dynamic compression for 2 reasons, high static (mechanical) compression and no throttle. That dynamic compression is mostly what makes the diesel so efficient. Not so much the btu content of the fuel. So the more air you let into a gas motor, the more like a diesel it becomes, as far as efficiency..to a point. Same thing with egr, actually, that is probably better, since the exhaust is basically inert. I created a thread on another forum on the subject of tuning for mpg, and some of the things people posted up amazed me. For instance, aircraft motors running open throttle above 5k feet, with enough fuel taken out to drop the egts getting the best mpg. (start taking out fuel, egts rise, keep taking it out, they drop, now you're at the power level needed for cruise, they call it "wide open throttle/lean of peak") (I don't know what that a/f ratio actually is, they don't have widebands..)
So I don't have any numbers here at all as far as what ratios, what % efficiency increases, etc, for what motors. Those air cooled aircraft motors are old as hell, and not designed for that type of operation, yet it works.. All I'm saying is that it might be worth it to experiment. I remember reading in an old book from the 60s about carburetors that some of their cruise mixtures were as high as 18:1, I was like, "wtf??" But that won't work with a catalyst, so..not anymore.

kuja396

That Element is sick, definately the coolest one I've ever seen!

JShull

Holy hell. Nice car errr SUV.

ickyhonda

It was too bad I did not see this thing run before I entered into the burnout contest with it. I popped both my tires in a 3rd gear burnout and he still took it! My house smelt like burnt rubber for 3 months. This thing is impressive, cant wait to see it this year.

P.S. do you have any video of the burnout contest that day?