could someone explain why advancing timing on a boosted car is bad?
09-25-2005, 09:03 AM
#1
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could someone explain why advancing timing on a boosted car is bad?
ok, my car went from 210psi all across the board to
1-180psi
2-160psi
3-40psi
4-120spi
within 200 miles. i only gave it 3 wot hard 3rd gear pulls to 7000rpm to check my a/f ratio with my wideband. 11.7 all the way. timing was retared to 13degrees in uberdata. now i put my stock computer back in(not the chipped one) and timing was set at like 20 advanced. so i put my uberdata chip back in and check the timing at it was at 20 degrees as well but in uberdata is says its at 13 degrees? im really confused at to what is going on. this is why my motor blew. i drove it hard at 20btc. but really, it shuld take longer that that to blow up? thats weak.
1-180psi
2-160psi
3-40psi
4-120spi
within 200 miles. i only gave it 3 wot hard 3rd gear pulls to 7000rpm to check my a/f ratio with my wideband. 11.7 all the way. timing was retared to 13degrees in uberdata. now i put my stock computer back in(not the chipped one) and timing was set at like 20 advanced. so i put my uberdata chip back in and check the timing at it was at 20 degrees as well but in uberdata is says its at 13 degrees? im really confused at to what is going on. this is why my motor blew. i drove it hard at 20btc. but really, it shuld take longer that that to blow up? thats weak.
09-25-2005, 09:25 AM
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Re: could someone explain why advancing timing on a boosted car is bad? (the.hamburglar)
I'm a little confused here. So the timing light at idle says you are are 20*? Uberdata will not change the phiscal standard timing....you must sync it with Uberdata. What was the timing at the highest boost pressure at say 6000rpm in Uberdata? I'm pretty sure I see what happened here. You physcial timing was set at 20*, but Uberdata was only synced for 16* (check your idle side of the maps). So in the top end if you have say 20* at 8PSI your actual timing whould have been 24* hence the probably detonation and death of the engine.
If you want to learn why timing is important...here:\
http://forums.evans-tuning.com...iming
If you want to learn why timing is important...here:\
http://forums.evans-tuning.com...iming
09-25-2005, 10:07 AM
#3
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Re: could someone explain why advancing timing on a boosted car is bad? (adseguy)
yeah thats exactly what happened. could you explain how to sync it for me? being the dumbass i was, and lack of research i thought the computer would control the timing. but then i thouht after my motor was done i probably had to set it back to stock. because i had it advanced to 18 when i didnt have the turbo on. so at 24 degrees that could have wrecked the motor in 3 pulls? i guess so
09-25-2005, 10:18 AM
#4
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Re: could someone explain why advancing timing on a boosted car is bad? (the.hamburglar)
ok, here are my ign maps. as you can see at 20hg idle its about 13 degrees or so. and then mechanically it was set at like 20. so if uberdata thought it was set at 16. thats a 4 degree difference. so yes, in top end when ubdata wanted to run 20 degrees it was really like 24 degrees because it wasnt in sync. wow what a mistake to make.
but what really should have happened is when i was running the stock b16 all motor without the turbo i advanced it to 18 degrees. so even though i never sync'd it it should only be 2 degrees out. it had to have moved or something because i know you should never advance it more than 18btc. it had to have slipped because it was at least 20btc maybe even more.
but what really should have happened is when i was running the stock b16 all motor without the turbo i advanced it to 18 degrees. so even though i never sync'd it it should only be 2 degrees out. it had to have moved or something because i know you should never advance it more than 18btc. it had to have slipped because it was at least 20btc maybe even more.
09-25-2005, 10:59 AM
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Re: could someone explain why advancing timing on a boosted car is bad? (the.hamburglar)
it's easier to just move the distributor back to 16* so it's "the same" "synced" with Uberdata. at 24* at 8-9PSI you prolly have detonation and yes 1 pull like that is all you need to destroy a motor. GL with the rebuild...if you choose to rebuild
09-25-2005, 11:10 AM
#6
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Re: could someone explain why advancing timing on a boosted car is bad? (adseguy)
it was only 6psi actually but still. should i rebuild or buy a new one?
09-25-2005, 11:40 AM
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Re: could someone explain why advancing timing on a boosted car is bad? (the.hamburglar)
Like was said, all it takes is the force of one horribly placed detonation to destroy a cylinder and its assembly.
Think about the loads placed on pistons and conrods during normal operation.... its in the many thousands of pounds and increases exponentially as rpms increase. Detonation brings even quicker deceleration of the assembly into play then before... the loads on the assembly are created from the acceleration and deceleration period.
Im willing to bet your ringlands are cracked...so you sould rebuild.
Think about the loads placed on pistons and conrods during normal operation.... its in the many thousands of pounds and increases exponentially as rpms increase. Detonation brings even quicker deceleration of the assembly into play then before... the loads on the assembly are created from the acceleration and deceleration period.
Im willing to bet your ringlands are cracked...so you sould rebuild.
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09-25-2005, 03:42 PM
#10
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Re: (SOHCD16y8)
yes you could do that. what i did was just plug in my stock computer but since i had the large injectors in it idled really bad and i coldnt get the stock timing exact. i think thats what also messed me up. load a stock map. it will work
09-25-2005, 04:27 PM
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Re: (the.hamburglar)
jump the service connector.
get a timing light
loosen the 3 bolts on the dist
start and idle the car
use a timing light to check your timing (using a stock map)
Adjust the dist till the timing mark is lined up in the center of the timing marks on the crank pully.
tighten down the 3 bolts on the dist
unjump the service connector
timing has been set.
get a timing light
loosen the 3 bolts on the dist
start and idle the car
use a timing light to check your timing (using a stock map)
Adjust the dist till the timing mark is lined up in the center of the timing marks on the crank pully.
tighten down the 3 bolts on the dist
unjump the service connector
timing has been set.
09-25-2005, 08:34 PM
#12
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Re: (Si Shane)
what i dont understand is that when you have a stock map burned and then align the marks to stock (middle) then your timing is stock. then when you load a tuned chip that is set to 13btc, will it also show 13btc with the timing light even though you set it to 16btc on the stock map? thats what messed me up. i thought the computer would automatically pull the timing to what you had it set to in uberdata
09-26-2005, 04:52 PM
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Re: (the.hamburglar)
your post confuses me. Uberdata modifies the timing values that the ecu checks.
Every time the ignition needs to fire the ecu runs a check to see what timing value it should run. If no modifications are made it checks rpm and map and selects an appropriate value.
When you change these values with a program such as uberdata, the same thing happens except the timing value that gets modified is the number you enter. If electronic timing is stock (which in any honda-troubleshooting type of way it should be), the crank pully will line up with the mark on the timing cover when the initial timing is corrrect.
Every time the ignition needs to fire the ecu runs a check to see what timing value it should run. If no modifications are made it checks rpm and map and selects an appropriate value.
When you change these values with a program such as uberdata, the same thing happens except the timing value that gets modified is the number you enter. If electronic timing is stock (which in any honda-troubleshooting type of way it should be), the crank pully will line up with the mark on the timing cover when the initial timing is corrrect.
09-26-2005, 05:01 PM
#14
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Re: (Si Shane)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Si Shane »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">your post confuses me. Uberdata modifies the timing values that the ecu checks.
Every time the ignition needs to fire the ecu runs a check to see what timing value it should run. If no modifications are made it checks rpm and map and selects an appropriate value.
When you change these values with a program such as uberdata, the same thing happens except the timing value that gets modified is the number you enter. If electronic timing is stock (which in any honda-troubleshooting type of way it should be), the crank pully will line up with the mark on the timing cover when the initial timing is corrrect. </TD></TR></TABLE>
well then as you can see in the map my timing was about 13-14 at idle. when i checked the timing after my motor went it was about 3 ticks past the 18 degree mark (so 2 with 2 degree per tick that 6 degrees from 18 which is 24). you cant see exactly of course but that is my estimate. so that would be like 24degrees advanced. my dizzy had to have slipped or something because there is no way i had my timing like that when i checked it last (about 2 months ago). or there is like a glitch in the software?
Every time the ignition needs to fire the ecu runs a check to see what timing value it should run. If no modifications are made it checks rpm and map and selects an appropriate value.
When you change these values with a program such as uberdata, the same thing happens except the timing value that gets modified is the number you enter. If electronic timing is stock (which in any honda-troubleshooting type of way it should be), the crank pully will line up with the mark on the timing cover when the initial timing is corrrect.
</TD></TR></TABLE>well then as you can see in the map my timing was about 13-14 at idle. when i checked the timing after my motor went it was about 3 ticks past the 18 degree mark (so 2 with 2 degree per tick that 6 degrees from 18 which is 24). you cant see exactly of course but that is my estimate. so that would be like 24degrees advanced. my dizzy had to have slipped or something because there is no way i had my timing like that when i checked it last (about 2 months ago). or there is like a glitch in the software?
09-26-2005, 05:26 PM
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Re: (the.hamburglar)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by the.hamburglar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
or there is like a glitch in the software?</TD></TR></TABLE>
NO!...don't even metion that
. I bet the timing on the dizzy somehow moved and you ran way too advanced...end of story
or there is like a glitch in the software?</TD></TR></TABLE>
NO!...don't even metion that
. I bet the timing on the dizzy somehow moved and you ran way too advanced...end of story
09-26-2005, 05:55 PM
#16
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Re: could someone explain why advancing timing on a boosted car is bad? (the.hamburglar)
You want to make sure the dizzy reads your desired base timing. For instance on my car I have a y8 dizzy fitted onto a z6 head and I have to advance it all the way which still only puts me at about 10* at the dizzy with my maps set at 16*. To get the dizzy base timing to 16* I had to add 6* across my entire ignition map bringing my base timing to the map to 22*, but leaving my dizzy timing right where i want it at 16*. This means that what you see in my maps is always going to actually be 6* less at the dizzy.
09-26-2005, 08:14 PM
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Re: (the.hamburglar)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by the.hamburglar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
well then as you can see in the map my timing was about 13-14 at idle. when i checked the timing after my motor went it was about 3 ticks past the 18 degree mark (so 2 with 2 degree per tick that 6 degrees from 18 which is 24). you cant see exactly of course but that is my estimate. so that would be like 24degrees advanced. my dizzy had to have slipped or something because there is no way i had my timing like that when i checked it last (about 2 months ago). or there is like a glitch in the software?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You should invest in a better timing light. Checking the timing shouldn't be that confusing to anyone...
well then as you can see in the map my timing was about 13-14 at idle. when i checked the timing after my motor went it was about 3 ticks past the 18 degree mark (so 2 with 2 degree per tick that 6 degrees from 18 which is 24). you cant see exactly of course but that is my estimate. so that would be like 24degrees advanced. my dizzy had to have slipped or something because there is no way i had my timing like that when i checked it last (about 2 months ago). or there is like a glitch in the software?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You should invest in a better timing light. Checking the timing shouldn't be that confusing to anyone...
09-26-2005, 08:30 PM
#18
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Re: (Tony the Tiger)
no, how does the timing just move?
a light wont make the difference. it was flashing where it should be. and the timing was at 18*btc which is 2 degrees advanced (my mistake). but i checked it after the motor blew and its now like 20+*. the motor blowing up wont change the timing. or what about since its now only running off basically 3 cylinders?
a light wont make the difference. it was flashing where it should be. and the timing was at 18*btc which is 2 degrees advanced (my mistake). but i checked it after the motor blew and its now like 20+*. the motor blowing up wont change the timing. or what about since its now only running off basically 3 cylinders?
09-26-2005, 08:32 PM
#19
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Re: (adseguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by adseguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
NO!...don't even metion that. I bet the timing on the dizzy somehow moved and you ran way too advanced...end of story</TD></TR></TABLE>
WHY NOT? im trying to come up with conclusions. what about if i had a virus on my computer at home which i know i do (alot infact) and i burn a chip. something could have gotten into the .bin file
NO!...don't even metion that
. I bet the timing on the dizzy somehow moved and you ran way too advanced...end of story</TD></TR></TABLE>WHY NOT? im trying to come up with conclusions. what about if i had a virus on my computer at home which i know i do (alot infact) and i burn a chip. something could have gotten into the .bin file
09-26-2005, 08:56 PM
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Re: (the.hamburglar)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by the.hamburglar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what about if i had a virus on my computer at home which i know i do (alot infact) and i burn a chip. something could have gotten into the .bin file</TD></TR></TABLE>
You can just add that the your list of mistakes, which eventually led to your motor blowing. However, I dont think a virus "got into your .bin" and somehow advanced your timing by another 2 degrees, and not touch any other settings...it sounds too far-fetched. But even then I still wouldn't use a laptop or PC that I knew had viruses or a lot of hijacker/spamware/spyware or whatever programs on it. You should have done a clean format and then used your Uberdata to write your chip from a clean PC/laptop.
You can just add that the your list of mistakes, which eventually led to your motor blowing. However, I dont think a virus "got into your .bin" and somehow advanced your timing by another 2 degrees, and not touch any other settings...it sounds too far-fetched. But even then I still wouldn't use a laptop or PC that I knew had viruses or a lot of hijacker/spamware/spyware or whatever programs on it. You should have done a clean format and then used your Uberdata to write your chip from a clean PC/laptop.
09-26-2005, 09:03 PM
#21
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Re: (BlueShadow)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueShadow »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You can just add that the your list of mistakes, which eventually led to your motor blowing. However, I dont think a virus "got into your .bin" and somehow advanced your timing by another 2 degrees, and not touch any other settings...it sounds too far-fetched. But even then I still wouldn't use a laptop or PC that I knew had viruses or a lot of hijacker/spamware/spyware or whatever programs on it. You should have done a clean format and then used your Uberdata to write your chip from a clean PC/laptop.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
i know what happened, all you honda-tech bastards hacked into my computer when i signed up for this site like a year ago you have been watching me ever since. you saw i was using uberdata and hacked into my timing and advanced it on me. now my motor is blown. it was probably one of the sponsers looking to make more money for some parts i would need to buy. i knew it was some sort of conspiracy. screw this site
You can just add that the your list of mistakes, which eventually led to your motor blowing. However, I dont think a virus "got into your .bin" and somehow advanced your timing by another 2 degrees, and not touch any other settings...it sounds too far-fetched. But even then I still wouldn't use a laptop or PC that I knew had viruses or a lot of hijacker/spamware/spyware or whatever programs on it. You should have done a clean format and then used your Uberdata to write your chip from a clean PC/laptop.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
i know what happened, all you honda-tech bastards hacked into my computer when i signed up for this site like a year ago you have been watching me ever since. you saw i was using uberdata and hacked into my timing and advanced it on me. now my motor is blown. it was probably one of the sponsers looking to make more money for some parts i would need to buy. i knew it was some sort of conspiracy. screw this site
09-27-2005, 05:50 AM
#23
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Re: (the.hamburglar)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by the.hamburglar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no, how does the timing just move?
a light wont make the difference. it was flashing where it should be. and the timing was at 18*btc which is 2 degrees advanced (my mistake). but i checked it after the motor blew and its now like 20+*. the motor blowing up wont change the timing. or what about since its now only running off basically 3 cylinders?</TD></TR></TABLE>
was it idling different or anything? Maybe after blowing it up you were in a different cell on the map at idle.
a light wont make the difference. it was flashing where it should be. and the timing was at 18*btc which is 2 degrees advanced (my mistake). but i checked it after the motor blew and its now like 20+*. the motor blowing up wont change the timing. or what about since its now only running off basically 3 cylinders?</TD></TR></TABLE>
was it idling different or anything? Maybe after blowing it up you were in a different cell on the map at idle.
09-27-2005, 06:39 AM
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There was not a virus that took over the .bin file. just look at what you wrote. You said pre blowing the motor up the timing was correct (well 2* off but still close correct?) Then the motor blew. You never reall specified but afterwards im guessing on the same ecu, same chip you timed the motor again? And this time the timing was way off?
There is only two ways to change that timing. ECU or dizzy. We know its not the ecu if all the variables were kept the same. You sure you tightened down all those bolts?
The only other conclusion I can come to is this. Say for instance on my Y8 motor. When you convert to a obd1 ecu it f's up the timing.
And if you could, please type out EXACTLY what happened step by step. There are too many bits and pieces floating around that make my already calc 2 fried brain hurt.
There is only two ways to change that timing. ECU or dizzy. We know its not the ecu if all the variables were kept the same. You sure you tightened down all those bolts?
The only other conclusion I can come to is this. Say for instance on my Y8 motor. When you convert to a obd1 ecu it f's up the timing.
And if you could, please type out EXACTLY what happened step by step. There are too many bits and pieces floating around that make my already calc 2 fried brain hurt.
09-27-2005, 07:21 AM
#25
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Re: (Civicman86)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Civicman86 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There was not a virus that took over the .bin file. just look at what you wrote. You said pre blowing the motor up the timing was correct (well 2* off but still close correct?) Then the motor blew. You never reall specified but afterwards im guessing on the same ecu, same chip you timed the motor again? And this time the timing was way off?
There is only two ways to change that timing. ECU or dizzy. We know its not the ecu if all the variables were kept the same. You sure you tightened down all those bolts?
The only other conclusion I can come to is this. Say for instance on my Y8 motor. When you convert to a obd1 ecu it f's up the timing.
And if you could, please type out EXACTLY what happened step by step. There are too many bits and pieces floating around that make my already calc 2 fried brain hurt.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
calculus 2 hey? did that last year. when i get some time today i will write out exactly what happened
There is only two ways to change that timing. ECU or dizzy. We know its not the ecu if all the variables were kept the same. You sure you tightened down all those bolts?
The only other conclusion I can come to is this. Say for instance on my Y8 motor. When you convert to a obd1 ecu it f's up the timing.
And if you could, please type out EXACTLY what happened step by step. There are too many bits and pieces floating around that make my already calc 2 fried brain hurt.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
calculus 2 hey? did that last year. when i get some time today i will write out exactly what happened