Bullshit detector required about bearings? Can u help?
12-11-2008, 11:24 AM
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Bullshit detector required about bearings? Can u help?
HI all
As some of u no im currently organising parts for my Civic EG9 Turbo build! Yeay!
Im come across a hurdle regarding what bearings to use in my new build. Iv looked at OEM, King and ACL. I know honda are good expensive and sizing can be a pain. Iv therefore been looking at alternatives and found the two above, trouble is i dont know if they are crap or not. So is the statement KING make bollocks?? See below:
THE BENEFITS OF USING KING ENGINE BEARINGS
Tri-metal vs. Bi-metal Bearings.
Traditional rod and main bearing construction is based upon a three layer configuration composed of a steel backing, a copper-lead layer and a very thin overlay of babbitt material only .0005" - .0008" thick.
BearingsAlecular™ Bearing Material KING developed this alternative to the traditional tri-metal bearings construction. KING bearings have a single deep (.012" - .015") layer of Alecular material, an exclusive alloy of aluminum, tin, copper and other metals, on the steel backing. This gives us superior embedability.
KING BEARINGS GIVE YOU EXTRA INSURANCE AGAINST ENGINE BEARING FAILURES!
ACL do a few different types and also a Race series bearing. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated as i cant really afford to bugger this part up can i, iv got me plastigauge ready so just need to select bearing type?
My spec is AFI B16 street turbo kit (t3/t4 57 trim) and 3" exhaust. (Cheers Schister66!)
B16 bored to 81.5mm, SRP 8.5-1 pistons, Eagle rods. ITR oil pump.
GSR head with Skunk2 valvetrain and tuner 2 cams.
Walbro pump and RC 550cc injectors.
Ideally il tune it for 300-350whp.
Cheers to all. Marc
.
As some of u no im currently organising parts for my Civic EG9 Turbo build! Yeay!
Im come across a hurdle regarding what bearings to use in my new build. Iv looked at OEM, King and ACL. I know honda are good expensive and sizing can be a pain. Iv therefore been looking at alternatives and found the two above, trouble is i dont know if they are crap or not. So is the statement KING make bollocks?? See below:
THE BENEFITS OF USING KING ENGINE BEARINGS
Tri-metal vs. Bi-metal Bearings.
Traditional rod and main bearing construction is based upon a three layer configuration composed of a steel backing, a copper-lead layer and a very thin overlay of babbitt material only .0005" - .0008" thick.
BearingsAlecular™ Bearing Material KING developed this alternative to the traditional tri-metal bearings construction. KING bearings have a single deep (.012" - .015") layer of Alecular material, an exclusive alloy of aluminum, tin, copper and other metals, on the steel backing. This gives us superior embedability.
KING BEARINGS GIVE YOU EXTRA INSURANCE AGAINST ENGINE BEARING FAILURES!
ACL do a few different types and also a Race series bearing. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated as i cant really afford to bugger this part up can i, iv got me plastigauge ready so just need to select bearing type?
My spec is AFI B16 street turbo kit (t3/t4 57 trim) and 3" exhaust. (Cheers Schister66!)
B16 bored to 81.5mm, SRP 8.5-1 pistons, Eagle rods. ITR oil pump.
GSR head with Skunk2 valvetrain and tuner 2 cams.
Walbro pump and RC 550cc injectors.
Ideally il tune it for 300-350whp.
Cheers to all. Marc
.
Last edited by MadVTI; 12-11-2008 at 11:30 AM.
12-11-2008, 11:34 AM
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12-11-2008, 01:21 PM
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I feel that most bearing failures are due to detonation, bad clearances, or out of round/distorted crank journals & rods. There's also the occational dirt/shavings eating a bearing, but that's obvious to see.
Due to the simplicity of a Honda bottom end, many people think they can turn a few bolts and have a 600whp shortblock. Its really not as easy as replacing bearings and torquing bolts to spec.
Anyways, many people have had excellent luck with ACL's. I know the OEM D-series bearings changed to cheap crap not too long ago, so its common to use ACL's instead. I think they still sell the good quality OEM B-series bearings, but they are pricey. Lots of people use ACL's, but have a few different OEM sizes to make any needed clearance adjustments.
Due to the simplicity of a Honda bottom end, many people think they can turn a few bolts and have a 600whp shortblock. Its really not as easy as replacing bearings and torquing bolts to spec.
Anyways, many people have had excellent luck with ACL's. I know the OEM D-series bearings changed to cheap crap not too long ago, so its common to use ACL's instead. I think they still sell the good quality OEM B-series bearings, but they are pricey. Lots of people use ACL's, but have a few different OEM sizes to make any needed clearance adjustments.
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12-12-2008, 01:20 AM
#10
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Old news but good read.
i doubt king tested their bearings on F1 engines nor ACL.
http://dwolsten.tripod.com/articles/sep93a.html
Honda's race-bred connecting rod bearing
Honda's new 1.8-liter VTEC engine for the updated, top-of-the-range Integra model attains an extremely high piston speed, 23.3 m/s at 8000 rpm, which matches that of the company's Formula One racing engine. This far exceeds a normally accepted ceiling of 21 m/s for a high-performance road car engine. "If I were to cite a single item that made this high piston speed possible, it is metallurgy," confides a senior engine designer, ["]specifically the connecting rod bearing and the connecting rod material."
To enhance the new Integra's sporty image in a fiercely competetive class, the development team concluded that it would need a high-output, high-revving engine of 1.8-L capacity, aiming at 75 kW/L (132 kW, JIS net) and the capability to rev to as high as 8000 rpm with ample reserves of durability and reliability.
Honda has two L4 engine families that could produce a 1.8-liter displacement. One is the "Accord" block, with 94-mm bore pitch and, currently, 85-mm bore, obtaining 2.0-L with a 88-mm stroke and 2.2 with a 95-mm stroke. This engine family traces its origin from a 1.8-L capacity with a 81.5-mm bore, which should be capable of attaining the targeted high power and rpm. The snag was that would have been 16 mm too wide and 10 kg too heavy for the projected Integra.
The other engine family considered was the "Civic" performance engine group identified by the prefix "B," with 90-mm bore pitch. The B16A, DOHC, variable-valve-timing/-lift VTEC, 1595-cc unit was the top engine of the previous Integra series. This famility also had a 1.8-L version, the standard unit for the U.S. Integra, and in DOHC, 16-valve, non-VTEC form it powers the Japanese-market-only Domani sedan. The B18A, 1834-cc unit has a long stroke of 89 mm and 81-mm bore, which would have increased piston speed to a stratospheric 24-m/sec, which was excessive and simply unattainable.
So a new aluminum block was designed for the new engine, designated B18C, for the third-generation Integra, with 85-mm bore and 87.2-mm stroke, obtaining 1787 cc. The block has siamesed, cast-iron, dry liners cast in. Nos. 2, 3, and 4 lower bearing caps/carriers are tied by an aluminum bridge to reinforce this critical area.
The VTEC cylinder head is newly cast for the B18C; however, its valvetrain is shared with the B18A unit, including 33-mm-diameter intake and 28-mm-diameter exhaust valves, either having a 5.5-mm lift. The VTEC is combined with a variable-length induction system that effectively produces three torque curves which the engine rides on in its rpm range. For the promise of combining ample low- and mid-range torque and high-speed power, the B16A VTEC was sometimes criticized for its shortage of low-end pulling power. The bigger B18C has rectified this shortcoming with a flatter torque curve–a combination of three curves–which peaks at 6200 rpm, 1000 rpm lower than the smaller unit's, and at 3000 rpm the engine produces 5% higher torque.
Two and a half years ago, when the engine team began developing the new 1.8-L VTEC engine, it had to limit its highest sustainable speed to 7500 rpm and maximum power output to 125 kW. "Our initial reaction was, 'The senior Prelude's 2.0-L VTEC's limit is 7400. So it should be high enough,'" says the senior engineer. Obstacles were known to us. "Stroking of the 1.6-L engine by 19% to obtain 1.8-L would have been accompanied by a 20% increase in load of such vital components as the crankshaft. Our data on the 1.6-L's crankshaft indicated that it would not stand up to that kind of load. Nor would the connecting-rod bearing metal." Widening the bearing metal would have made it withstand the load, but that would have further reduced the crankshaft's strength, which had to accommodate the wider bearings within a set length. Attainable and allowable piston speed is really determined by the fine balance between the crankshaft and connecting-rod bearing performances.
At about the same time, at another corner of Honda's Wako R&D Center, a group of advanced engine designers and engineers were striving to get another engine to combine high-rpm power and reliability under very demanding operating conditions–Formula One racing. Lack of reliability had for some time been plaguing the naturally aspirated, 3.5-L, V12 engine.
To remedy the problem, a team of Honda metallurgists/engineers created a highly seizure-resistant overlay on the bearing's sliding surface using a unique electrodepositing of tetra-methyl lead, Pb (h00). The highly oriented Pb surface has a composition of myriad minuscule pyramids, which possesses outstanding "wettability" or lubricant-retaining properties. Honda claims it has given a 30% or higher increase in the anti-seizure parameter, PV, than a surface with conventional deposits.
In August 1991, Soichiro Honda passed away. The Wako engineers' way of expressing homage to the late founder was to win the next Formula One race–the Hungarian Grand Prix of that year. The new highly oriented crystal bearings were used in the Honda V12 which propelled a McLaren racer to its long overdue victory.
The beauty of this bearing was that it was cost-competetive. It was subsequently adopted in the Legend's new longitudinal V6 engine. In the B18C, it enabled the engine designers to reduce the connecting-rod bearing width from the B16A's 19.5 to 17.5 mm. Two millimeters shaved off each connecting rod journal is added to the crankshaft webs flanking it, giving the crankshaft the extra strength it needed.
Furthermore, with the new bearing material, Honda was able to revert to a low-vicosity, low-friction lubricant (the smaller B16A VTEC is specified with a higher-viscosity one), that contributes to improved fuel economy.
Another vital item that received Honda metallurgists' attention was the connecting rod. The forged steel alloy rod's chrome content was increased and its carbon content reduced, increasing the alloy's strength by as much as 26%. The longer-stroke rod's weight is the same as the B16A's shorter rod.
Jack Yamaguchi
It wouldnt be very logical to remove a formula 1 proven and developed bearing and replace it with a lesser performing unit.
i doubt king tested their bearings on F1 engines nor ACL.
http://dwolsten.tripod.com/articles/sep93a.html
Honda's race-bred connecting rod bearing
Honda's new 1.8-liter VTEC engine for the updated, top-of-the-range Integra model attains an extremely high piston speed, 23.3 m/s at 8000 rpm, which matches that of the company's Formula One racing engine. This far exceeds a normally accepted ceiling of 21 m/s for a high-performance road car engine. "If I were to cite a single item that made this high piston speed possible, it is metallurgy," confides a senior engine designer, ["]specifically the connecting rod bearing and the connecting rod material."
To enhance the new Integra's sporty image in a fiercely competetive class, the development team concluded that it would need a high-output, high-revving engine of 1.8-L capacity, aiming at 75 kW/L (132 kW, JIS net) and the capability to rev to as high as 8000 rpm with ample reserves of durability and reliability.
Honda has two L4 engine families that could produce a 1.8-liter displacement. One is the "Accord" block, with 94-mm bore pitch and, currently, 85-mm bore, obtaining 2.0-L with a 88-mm stroke and 2.2 with a 95-mm stroke. This engine family traces its origin from a 1.8-L capacity with a 81.5-mm bore, which should be capable of attaining the targeted high power and rpm. The snag was that would have been 16 mm too wide and 10 kg too heavy for the projected Integra.
The other engine family considered was the "Civic" performance engine group identified by the prefix "B," with 90-mm bore pitch. The B16A, DOHC, variable-valve-timing/-lift VTEC, 1595-cc unit was the top engine of the previous Integra series. This famility also had a 1.8-L version, the standard unit for the U.S. Integra, and in DOHC, 16-valve, non-VTEC form it powers the Japanese-market-only Domani sedan. The B18A, 1834-cc unit has a long stroke of 89 mm and 81-mm bore, which would have increased piston speed to a stratospheric 24-m/sec, which was excessive and simply unattainable.
So a new aluminum block was designed for the new engine, designated B18C, for the third-generation Integra, with 85-mm bore and 87.2-mm stroke, obtaining 1787 cc. The block has siamesed, cast-iron, dry liners cast in. Nos. 2, 3, and 4 lower bearing caps/carriers are tied by an aluminum bridge to reinforce this critical area.
The VTEC cylinder head is newly cast for the B18C; however, its valvetrain is shared with the B18A unit, including 33-mm-diameter intake and 28-mm-diameter exhaust valves, either having a 5.5-mm lift. The VTEC is combined with a variable-length induction system that effectively produces three torque curves which the engine rides on in its rpm range. For the promise of combining ample low- and mid-range torque and high-speed power, the B16A VTEC was sometimes criticized for its shortage of low-end pulling power. The bigger B18C has rectified this shortcoming with a flatter torque curve–a combination of three curves–which peaks at 6200 rpm, 1000 rpm lower than the smaller unit's, and at 3000 rpm the engine produces 5% higher torque.
Two and a half years ago, when the engine team began developing the new 1.8-L VTEC engine, it had to limit its highest sustainable speed to 7500 rpm and maximum power output to 125 kW. "Our initial reaction was, 'The senior Prelude's 2.0-L VTEC's limit is 7400. So it should be high enough,'" says the senior engineer. Obstacles were known to us. "Stroking of the 1.6-L engine by 19% to obtain 1.8-L would have been accompanied by a 20% increase in load of such vital components as the crankshaft. Our data on the 1.6-L's crankshaft indicated that it would not stand up to that kind of load. Nor would the connecting-rod bearing metal." Widening the bearing metal would have made it withstand the load, but that would have further reduced the crankshaft's strength, which had to accommodate the wider bearings within a set length. Attainable and allowable piston speed is really determined by the fine balance between the crankshaft and connecting-rod bearing performances.
At about the same time, at another corner of Honda's Wako R&D Center, a group of advanced engine designers and engineers were striving to get another engine to combine high-rpm power and reliability under very demanding operating conditions–Formula One racing. Lack of reliability had for some time been plaguing the naturally aspirated, 3.5-L, V12 engine.
To remedy the problem, a team of Honda metallurgists/engineers created a highly seizure-resistant overlay on the bearing's sliding surface using a unique electrodepositing of tetra-methyl lead, Pb (h00). The highly oriented Pb surface has a composition of myriad minuscule pyramids, which possesses outstanding "wettability" or lubricant-retaining properties. Honda claims it has given a 30% or higher increase in the anti-seizure parameter, PV, than a surface with conventional deposits.
In August 1991, Soichiro Honda passed away. The Wako engineers' way of expressing homage to the late founder was to win the next Formula One race–the Hungarian Grand Prix of that year. The new highly oriented crystal bearings were used in the Honda V12 which propelled a McLaren racer to its long overdue victory.
The beauty of this bearing was that it was cost-competetive. It was subsequently adopted in the Legend's new longitudinal V6 engine. In the B18C, it enabled the engine designers to reduce the connecting-rod bearing width from the B16A's 19.5 to 17.5 mm. Two millimeters shaved off each connecting rod journal is added to the crankshaft webs flanking it, giving the crankshaft the extra strength it needed.
Furthermore, with the new bearing material, Honda was able to revert to a low-vicosity, low-friction lubricant (the smaller B16A VTEC is specified with a higher-viscosity one), that contributes to improved fuel economy.
Another vital item that received Honda metallurgists' attention was the connecting rod. The forged steel alloy rod's chrome content was increased and its carbon content reduced, increasing the alloy's strength by as much as 26%. The longer-stroke rod's weight is the same as the B16A's shorter rod.
Jack Yamaguchi
It wouldnt be very logical to remove a formula 1 proven and developed bearing and replace it with a lesser performing unit.
Last edited by omniman; 12-12-2008 at 01:36 AM.
12-12-2008, 03:09 AM
#11
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king bearings are good. they do seem to hold up to more abuse than the normal oem/acl style bearings. i only use king bearings from now on.
at least the ones i pulled out of my motor looked good after some good abuse and lots of oil contamination.
at least the ones i pulled out of my motor looked good after some good abuse and lots of oil contamination.
12-12-2008, 08:04 AM
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Marc, I had this same problem.Was stuck between ACL Duraglides and OEM's after my machine shop said get standard sized bearings.
Called into Retford Honda...They wanted £17.63 per HALF a con-rod bearing.And over 18quid per half of a main bearing for my D16 block.
Total price for a complete set of bottom end bearings was around £310 + vat.
So over $500 for the majority of Honda-Tech users.
Rip off Britain or what!
So I've decided to go with the ACL standards.
Called into Retford Honda...They wanted £17.63 per HALF a con-rod bearing.And over 18quid per half of a main bearing for my D16 block.
Total price for a complete set of bottom end bearings was around £310 + vat.
So over $500 for the majority of Honda-Tech users.
Rip off Britain or what!
So I've decided to go with the ACL standards.
12-12-2008, 08:23 AM
#13
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Marc, I had this same problem.Was stuck between ACL Duraglides and OEM's after my machine shop said get standard sized bearings.
Called into Retford Honda...They wanted £17.63 per HALF a con-rod bearing.And over 18quid per half of a main bearing for my D16 block.
Total price for a complete set of bottom end bearings was around £310 + vat.
So over $500 for the majority of Honda-Tech users.
Rip off Britain or what!
So I've decided to go with the ACL standards.
Called into Retford Honda...They wanted £17.63 per HALF a con-rod bearing.And over 18quid per half of a main bearing for my D16 block.
Total price for a complete set of bottom end bearings was around £310 + vat.
So over $500 for the majority of Honda-Tech users.
Rip off Britain or what!
So I've decided to go with the ACL standards.
12-12-2008, 08:37 AM
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Haha I know Trev as well...Usually gives me a discount on stuff too,think that was below the "normal" cost too for the bearings.
My headgasket and other stuff I ordered had some discount on it too.Should really see about getting a job there lol.
The way I see it,ACL's are cheap enough to try,just measure them up and double check.
My headgasket and other stuff I ordered had some discount on it too.Should really see about getting a job there lol.
The way I see it,ACL's are cheap enough to try,just measure them up and double check.
12-13-2008, 01:48 AM
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Old news but good read.
i doubt king tested their bearings on F1 engines nor ACL.
http://dwolsten.tripod.com/articles/sep93a.html
i doubt king tested their bearings on F1 engines nor ACL.
http://dwolsten.tripod.com/articles/sep93a.html
Omniman you make valvetrain for these engines, Im surprised someone of your caliber did not catch this, or am i reading it wrong?
12-13-2008, 01:14 PM
#17
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Blinx the comparison was made between the h22 prelude motor and its 2.0 verison. read it again a little slower. the article depicts the obsticals and design requirement changes needed to achieve the same reliability as the b16a but in 1.8 form and used the F-series motor as a comparison for the larger stroke in relationship to its rpm potential. notice the b18c rod had a larger crome content to increase its strength vs the b16 rod and also it was longer but still weighed the same.
12-13-2008, 02:54 PM
#18
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I keep reading it and it is clearly saying the b18c bore is 85mm B18a valves are 33/28.
"So a new aluminum block was designed for the new engine, designated B18C, for the third-generation Integra, with 85-mm bore"
how am i reading wrong?
"So a new aluminum block was designed for the new engine, designated B18C, for the third-generation Integra, with 85-mm bore"
how am i reading wrong?
12-13-2008, 03:37 PM
#19
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thats a clear typo from the page its on my friend. and i agree that particular sentance is not accurate, however i did not write it. thats not really pertaining to the focus of the original post which is bearings. the point of the post was to show the design obsticals Honda faced when designing the b18c engine for reliable use at 8000+ rpms in regards to the bearings and crank. Also the things that were changed at the metalugical levels in the connecting rods and the reasons they were changed. for short term use you can use any old random cheap part and get by. personally i dont have time to rebuild my engine every 2 years or less like so many on this board do, so i choose to use parts better suited for longevity.
Lets not let a typo get in the way of discussion.
Lets not let a typo get in the way of discussion.
12-13-2008, 03:56 PM
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i understand what your saying and i am not trying to nit pick, it's just that once i see some misinformation in an article i tend to refute its entire point, i see 2 major mistakes in that article (i am sure they are just accidents) but that just makes me wonder how many more of the words in the article are accidents, i stopped reading nearly all the import type magazines for this reason alone... maybe its just me.
But at the end of the day i certainly agree with you, i only used ACL bearings because i could get my hands on them faster, some OEM parts are best, Honda bearings are one of them.
12-14-2008, 08:29 AM
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thats a clear typo from the page its on my friend. and i agree that particular sentance is not accurate, however i did not write it. thats not really pertaining to the focus of the original post which is bearings. the point of the post was to show the design obsticals Honda faced when designing the b18c engine for reliable use at 8000+ rpms in regards to the bearings and crank. Also the things that were changed at the metalugical levels in the connecting rods and the reasons they were changed. for short term use you can use any old random cheap part and get by. personally i dont have time to rebuild my engine every 2 years or less like so many on this board do, so i choose to use parts better suited for longevity.
Lets not let a typo get in the way of discussion.
Lets not let a typo get in the way of discussion.
Cheers to all. Marc
12-14-2008, 10:44 AM
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ACL race.
No need for any other bearings...
Most of the Turbo builds on CRX-UK have been built with ACL race with no negative effects...
I wouldn't want your pistons... Don't sound much fun off boost. However it would be a boring place if everybodys set up was the same. My new block is being built as we speak with 9.8:1 CP's. Its a daily driver so wont always be in boost. Hence why I want off boost fun.
Also 300-350WHP on stock sleeves with a 81.5mm bore? Good luck. I'm thinking near on a bar of boost. Remember this is England. We don't have fairy number Dyno's! I would be happy with 250WHP, thats about the same as 400whp on a US dyno... Dyno Dynamics FTW. Look at the Spec of that TEG on Hondaevolutions... Sleeved B18 running an impressive spec at 1bar of boost. Thats just under 400whp but with a massive spec and he normally runs with .5 bar.
Good luck with the build. I have no doubt you will have a seriously quick car. Maybe we may meet at Pod one day!
No need for any other bearings...
Most of the Turbo builds on CRX-UK have been built with ACL race with no negative effects...
I wouldn't want your pistons... Don't sound much fun off boost. However it would be a boring place if everybodys set up was the same. My new block is being built as we speak with 9.8:1 CP's. Its a daily driver so wont always be in boost. Hence why I want off boost fun.
Also 300-350WHP on stock sleeves with a 81.5mm bore? Good luck. I'm thinking near on a bar of boost. Remember this is England. We don't have fairy number Dyno's! I would be happy with 250WHP, thats about the same as 400whp on a US dyno... Dyno Dynamics FTW. Look at the Spec of that TEG on Hondaevolutions... Sleeved B18 running an impressive spec at 1bar of boost. Thats just under 400whp but with a massive spec and he normally runs with .5 bar.
Good luck with the build. I have no doubt you will have a seriously quick car. Maybe we may meet at Pod one day!
12-14-2008, 11:12 AM
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ACL race.
No need for any other bearings...
Most of the Turbo builds on CRX-UK have been built with ACL race with no negative effects...
I wouldn't want your pistons... Don't sound much fun off boost. However it would be a boring place if everybodys set up was the same. My new block is being built as we speak with 9.8:1 CP's. Its a daily driver so wont always be in boost. Hence why I want off boost fun.
Also 300-350WHP on stock sleeves with a 81.5mm bore? Good luck. I'm thinking near on a bar of boost. Remember this is England. We don't have fairy number Dyno's! I would be happy with 250WHP, thats about the same as 400whp on a US dyno... Dyno Dynamics FTW. Look at the Spec of that TEG on Hondaevolutions... Sleeved B18 running an impressive spec at 1bar of boost. Thats just under 400whp but with a massive spec and he normally runs with .5 bar.
Good luck with the build. I have no doubt you will have a seriously quick car. Maybe we may meet at Pod one day!
No need for any other bearings...
Most of the Turbo builds on CRX-UK have been built with ACL race with no negative effects...
I wouldn't want your pistons... Don't sound much fun off boost. However it would be a boring place if everybodys set up was the same. My new block is being built as we speak with 9.8:1 CP's. Its a daily driver so wont always be in boost. Hence why I want off boost fun.
Also 300-350WHP on stock sleeves with a 81.5mm bore? Good luck. I'm thinking near on a bar of boost. Remember this is England. We don't have fairy number Dyno's! I would be happy with 250WHP, thats about the same as 400whp on a US dyno... Dyno Dynamics FTW. Look at the Spec of that TEG on Hondaevolutions... Sleeved B18 running an impressive spec at 1bar of boost. Thats just under 400whp but with a massive spec and he normally runs with .5 bar.
Good luck with the build. I have no doubt you will have a seriously quick car. Maybe we may meet at Pod one day!
12-14-2008, 11:51 AM
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BTW I am using ACL bearings too.
