Johnyquest

So, dyno'd my civic today. Almost identical setup to the one that made all the power. I listed it earlier in the thread when I said I couldn't get the timing worked out, but now I'm evermore pissed.

Here's the story:

-Stock d16z6 head (titanium springs / ret) / IM / cam
-y8 bottom end, vitaras, eagles
-drag mani, tial 38, 2.5" exhaust
-t3/t4 .48 a/r 57 trim


So, here's the part that pissed me off:

I dyno'd it today @ Bristol Dyno in Hartford, CT. It laid down a WHOPPING 234whp @ 20 (yes, 20) PSI.

WTF, MATE?

I tried everything. I got my 450's maxxed out, 12:1-ish a/f ratio all across the board, I added and subtracted over 10 degrees of timing at all parts of the map which netted a total 15hp difference...


No ignition breakup, no boost leaks... Re-timed it as instructed above previously in the thread, noting the y8's pulley 12* mark....

I used an ostrich I borrowed from a fellow dyno'er, and no matter what we did, we could NOT get it to make any power.

It sounded like the meanest car at the dyno -- With your eyes closed you'd think you were hearing upwards of 500hp.... But the numbers sucked every time.

I compression tested it, 155-165 across the board. I checked the plugs, they are fine. No ignition breakup, no pinging, no leaning.

From behind the car, there was surprisingly no black smoke ... but more exhaust moving through that tailpipe than i've ever seen. I guess that's what 20psi will do...

BUT...


WHERE IS THE POWER?

I understand I don't have an aftermarket cam, but were talking over a 100hp deficit from similar setups as above. Where do I look, what should I try?

Matt

JFK78

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnyquest &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, dyno'd my civic today. Almost identical setup to the one that made all the power. I listed it earlier in the thread when I said I couldn't get the timing worked out, but now I'm evermore pissed.

Here's the story:

-Stock d16z6 head (titanium springs / ret) / IM / cam
-y8 bottom end, vitaras, eagles
-drag mani, tial 38, 2.5" exhaust
-t3/t4 .48 a/r 57 trim


WHERE IS THE POWER?

I understand I don't have an aftermarket cam, but were talking over a 100hp deficit from similar setups as above. Where do I look, what should I try?

Matt
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Fix your weak links first. The stock cam isn't the problem.

Make sure you are running a good air filter. Did you try removing it at the dyno to see if it was a restriction? I had a crappy foam filter originally that limited me to ~230ish whp no matter what I tried. Removed it and got a good K&N, no more power limitation.

Then go with a 3" DP & exhaust. Are you running 2.5" charge piping? A good intercooler?

Are you sure Vtec is engaging? If these things don't help, then there may be a cam timing issue.

Johnyquest

I removed the air filter for all dyno runs. There is a new high flow 2.5" cat in the exhaust, but it is also a new exhaust, 2.5" all the way back. I made 225hp on my stockblock z6 w/ a tiny t3, 2.25" and STOCK cat.


I sat there staring at it in the dyno parking lot for an hour yesterday after I ran it and I'm really glad you said cam timing. Is that possible? That is the ONLY conclusion I came up with as a possibilty on my own...

How retarded / advanced could I have possibly put the cam in that it would still "appear" to run well out of boost and for daily driving but result in this?

Also, how did you line everything up with a y8 bottom and z6 top end, as I am also running the same... Just line up the arrow on the crank and the marks on the head as if it were not a hybrid block?


EDIT: And yeah, it's a JRC i/c with 2" CP from the turbo to the hotside, and 2.5" to the throttle body... It should be plenty of pipe...

Thanks,

Matt

Johnyquest

Holy ****. I think that is the answer.

Via:

http://img201.echo.cx/img201/6317/man0033dh.jpg


I 99.9% remember aligning the marks level with the top of the head when I did the timing belt, being the 4th time I built this motor, I figured I knew it by heart. Son of a bitch, that'd put my cam a bunch of degrees retarded, I think.

But that it still runs semi-well like this? Weird.

But, THIS JUST MAY EXPLAIN IT!


A very happy Matt

JFK78

That sounds like a good guess! Hopefully that's it.

BTW, I'm running a full Y8 motor, not a hybrid Z6/Y8 head/block combo.

Johnyquest

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JFK78 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That sounds like a good guess! Hopefully that's it.

BTW, I'm running a full Y8 motor, not a hybrid Z6/Y8 head/block combo.</TD></TR></TABLE>


LOL. Thanks for the input. I just looked. DUH I did what I did... I left the plastic piece with the marker off my head... No wonder I couldn't remember where to line it up.

That is what I did.


Matt

boostedefmike

did you change out your crank im shooting for 12.5 consistant and im trying to keep it on a budget of about 3500 dollars hit me up on my email xxunneededxx@aol.com and let me know what you spent

boostedefmike

whats the big deal about the vitara's i dont get it are they better to use than like a manly piston or a eagle or wisco? or can i build the same power without the vitara's i just dont know what the bigh deal is can someone fill my noob *** in on whats going on with them

boostedefmike

whats the big deal about the vitara's i dont get it are they better to use than like a manly piston or a eagle or wisco? or can i build the same power without the vitara's i just dont know what the bigh deal is can someone fill my noob *** in on whats going on with them

FHTB20allday

Hmm.. this is making me feel a lil discouraged when iread johny quests post about his z6 head/y8 block only putting out 234whp@ 20 psi. i really hope this isnt waht im expecting to see. Im running a similar setup w/ few modifications:
z6 head skun2 valves ,titanium crower springs retainers, crower cam, aem cam gear/ IM/TB
y8 bottom, ARP headstuds, Weiscos, eagles
Ramhorn, tial 38, 2.5" exhasut with e/cut on DP.
t3/t4 57 trim stage 3 wheel .63 a/r

am i going to see simliar numbers( i hope not)? or is this jsut a error? am i going to see timing issues like the y8, or no becasue im using the z6 head?

sorry for the kinda newb concerns but ive never donea single b4 and especially taht im trying to get good numbers i wantto make sure my money will be putting more the 200whp out. im shotting for 400

94c1v1cex

stock tranny? what clutch you usin?

Swipe'd

SUBSCRIBED!

omg seriously i found ur video of ur track pass and i couldn't sleep..

i couldnt believe that u ran 10's w/stock sleeves and vitaras!

it make me feel so happy once i finish my build..


my question about ur manifold is about the collector? how much of a difference does that make.. i have a ramhorn and the welds and pipes are legit, just the collector isnt divided at all.. kinda looks almost flat inside it...

i should get pics up l8r once i get it back from the machine shop...

and another question, can i squeeze by running a 2.5'' exhaust b/c i have an exhaust cut-out w/electrical switch...

ideally id like to get a brand new reg cat, after the cut-out, w/a 2.5 exhaust allthe way back...
i have a 3'' downpipe already..

vectorsolid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostedefmike &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">whats the big deal about the vitara's i dont get it are they better to use than like a manly piston or a eagle or wisco? or can i build the same power without the vitara's i just dont know what the bigh deal is can someone fill my noob *** in on whats going on with them</TD></TR></TABLE>

I believe it's a performance and price point bargain, that's the big appeal. I'm gonna try it. The $ I save is going straight into a better turbo.

vectorsolid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnyquest &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Here's the story:

-Stock d16z6 head (titanium springs / ret) / IM / cam
-y8 bottom end, vitaras, eagles
-drag mani, tial 38, 2.5" exhaust
-t3/t4 .48 a/r 57 trim

WHERE IS THE POWER?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Here's a noobs thought. I was of the mind that if you are looking for 400hp, that isn't going to happen on a stock fuel pump or 450's. Not sure if you mentioned that or not.
Seems guys that are throwing down 400+ are doing it with 57 trim and .63 AR. I've also seen a few threads where guys feel for anything over 300hp, 57 trim and .63 AR. 50 trim .48 for under 300whp

JFK, had 66% bigger injectors, big fuel pump, and more turbo?

Combination of not enough air and not enough fuel makes the A/F look good, they equal'd out. Don't know, just tossing something out there. The more things you think about, the sooner you will find a solution.

JDM_SOHC

damn bro thats ****** nasty.... makes my hustle for a D16 block work even harder lol.. i was gona use my jdm D15B block but i heard id have a lotta issues compared to just gettin a Z6 block or something.. but good **** dude

labatt50

had to bump this... i saw the video on honda-portal...

what kind of axle are you running, which lsd you have and ... did you make any gear change ... aka zc dohc gearset?

JFK78

This post is wayyy old!!

Stock axles and obx lsd. Same set of axles for several years now!

I did put a zc dohc 3rd and vx 3rd as 4th in the tranny and upped the revlimiter to 9000rpm, but never got any clean runs in before the tranny broke/season ended.

It was definitely faster with the tigher ratios though. It went 10.9 @ 133mph accidentally hitting the revlimiter in every gear 1st time out.

Then went out again but accidentally put a smaller turbo on the car (thought it was identical, old one was smoking), so the car would only build 25psi and was crazy rich to the point of badly misfiring/breaking up the whole way down the track- It still went 10.9 @ only 124mph in this sad condition.

It is definitely able to run 10.6-10.7 @ 135-136mph on a clean run.


This setup is going in another chassis next year, we'll see how she does in her new home.

Swipe'd

i eff'n love this build..

it really is inspiring to me and i cant wait for my **** to get boosted now!

JDM_SOHC

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JFK78 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This post is wayyy old!!

Stock axles and obx lsd. Same set of axles for several years now!

I did put a zc dohc 3rd and vx 3rd as 4th in the tranny and upped the revlimiter to 9000rpm, but never got any clean runs in before the tranny broke/season ended.

It was definitely faster with the tigher ratios though. It went 10.9 @ 133mph accidentally hitting the revlimiter in every gear 1st time out.

Then went out again but accidentally put a smaller turbo on the car (thought it was identical, old one was smoking), so the car would only build 25psi and was crazy rich to the point of badly misfiring/breaking up the whole way down the track- It still went 10.9 @ only 124mph in this sad condition.

It is definitely able to run 10.6-10.7 @ 135-136mph on a clean run.


This setup is going in another chassis next year, we'll see how she does in her new home.</TD></TR></TABLE>

u think a virgin z6 tranny would hold up fine for high 10's low 11's..??

ReDemoN

Here is my ?
How would these pistons work in an A6 block with a Z6 head?
Or should I just get a Z6 block?
I think I'm gonna go this route looks like fun and not that expensive.
JFK - Where did you get your turbo from?

fjt

JFK if you want to test out my new rods specifically designed for the vitara pistons let me know.. I suspect atleast a 1.5whp increase per PSI just by the rod change and a tweak in the tunning... Should put you around 480-485whp
The rod will be an I beam rod that supports 500+ whp

NonovUrbizniz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnyquest &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Holy ****. I think that is the answer.

Via:

I 99.9% remember aligning the marks level with the top of the head when I did the timing belt, being the 4th time I built this motor, I figured I knew it by heart. Son of a bitch, that'd put my cam a bunch of degrees retarded, I think.

But that it still runs semi-well like this? Weird.

But, THIS JUST MAY EXPLAIN IT!


A very happy Matt

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yer gunna ****... lol... I had my timing belt done at the dealer when I first bought it used... thought the car was just a pig... I did the next timing belt and noticed it was set like ALL the other D series engines... double checked my manual and was like WTF????

Set it correctly and the car was literally an ENTIRELY Different animal. Can't imagine what that kind of cam retarding would do to a turbo setup... but I'm guessing drop about 100hp lol.

JFK78

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM_SOHC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

u think a virgin z6 tranny would hold up fine for high 10's low 11's..??</TD></TR></TABLE>

It should hold fine for a while. I ran my best time this year on a bone stock tranny. Sheared a 3rd gear once, and bent a shift fork - those were the only tranny problems this year.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ReDemoN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here is my ?
How would these pistons work in an A6 block with a Z6 head?
Or should I just get a Z6 block?
I think I'm gonna go this route looks like fun and not that expensive.
JFK - Where did you get your turbo from?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It'll work either way, but I'd just run a Z6. The turbo is from ebay, I don't remember the seller. It's a crapshoot though, some of the ebay 57 trims are really 57trim, some are not (smaller compressor wheel).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fjt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">JFK if you want to test out my new rods specifically designed for the vitara pistons let me know.. I suspect atleast a 1.5whp increase per PSI just by the rod change and a tweak in the tunning... Should put you around 480-485whp
The rod will be an I beam rod that supports 500+ whp</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll be contacting you!!