purpleh22

I'm running a fully built H22 in a 92 Hatch. GT30 @ 16 lbs. around 430 hp. I had been running 11.5:1 to 11.75:1 AFR. Installed a coolingmist 50/50 water/methanol injection setup and was told to run it at 12:1. (supposedly raises octane and helps cool the incoming mixture. Timing goes to a max of 18 degrees. Does this sound ok? Anyone have any experience or heard anything about this? Darton,Arias etc. but comp. is 10:1. I'm running C120 or 113 octane race gas. Probably overkill but hopefully leaves a good margin of safety.

96 GSR-T

way overkill @ 16psi.......I would keep the AFR @ 11.8 no matter what, when running the injection you can run more boost w/o detonation......just tune to an 11.8 using the higher boost and injection. With the right timing and fuel....i do not see wy 20lb on pump isnt out of the question but dont hold me to that.

NastyHabitzCRX

i have the snowperformance kit, and have the second biggest nozzle they have. i have my A/F ratios are at 13.5:1
car feels great and no signs of detonation, but i have a way smaller turbo.
with race gas im sure this is overkill since racegas is very detonation resistant

Pilot

Generally we recommend an AFR of 12.5:1 when using pump gas and FJO water/methanol injection system. Also if you are using race fuel and water/meth you can reduce the volume of injected water/meth. As a rule of thumb with race gas target about 20% water/meth volume vs the total injected fuel volume at all boost ranges. You should be able to set this up in the controller software that came with your water/meth system.
Ignition timing may also need to be increased slightly if you running rich, race fuel and water/meth since all of these things are combustion coolants.
When I'm setting up the FJO system on a boosted engine we typically run 30% volume, 91 octance pump gas and reliably acheive 2.5 to 6 hp per cubic inch displacement.

Ross.

quickergixxer

these kits come with software? could you just install the kit and turn boost up. watch the A/F with a wideband or do you have to do some remapping?

purpleh22

The coolingmist setup is boost activated. We have it set to spray @ 8# and up. They also have a unit that allows you to use different fuel maps depending on your use and setup. I ordered one but the Installer said it wasn't needed and set it up without it.

quickergixxer

sounds like a simple install ha?

NastyHabitzCRX

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by purpleh22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The coolingmist setup is boost activated. We have it set to spray @ 8# and up. They also have a unit that allows you to use different fuel maps depending on your use and setup. I ordered one but the Installer said it wasn't needed and set it up without it.</TD></TR></TABLE>mine is activated via Hondata's nitrous control. would be far better to have if the s100 could actually add timing instead of only being able to retard it. that way i could turn the system on and off and not worry about those advanced timing under boost.
it works great now, and i am not running any water, only straight methanol.

Pilot

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quickergixxer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">these kits come with software? could you just install the kit and turn boost up. watch the A/F with a wideband or do you have to do some remapping?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would hope it came with software!!! It's the 21st century not the 1970's. Water methanol injection done properly uses precise control to give the engine just what it needs to stave off detonation. One size (or volume in this case) does NOT fit all. A system that only has two settings, too much and way too much or an equally crude variable pump pressure setup either floods the engine at certain point in the rpm range or isn't being effective as an anti-detonant. Fuel isn't injected into an engine at one volume and neither should water methanol.

Ross.

raene

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NastyHabitzCRX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">mine is activated via Hondata's nitrous control. would be far better to have if the s100 could actually add timing instead of only being able to retard it. that way i could turn the system on and off and not worry about those advanced timing under boost.
it works great now, and i am not running any water, only straight methanol. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I haven't used Hondata, but could you subtract a negative amount of timing?

NastyHabitzCRX

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pilot &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Fuel isn't injected into an engine at one volume and neither should water methanol.

Ross. </TD></TR></TABLE>you're 100% right, you dont' try to control the water/methanol. that's where the tuning comes in, and you control the fuel and timing.
or you could get all crazy and use a secondary injectors to control the amount of water/meth.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by raene &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I haven't used Hondata, but could you subtract a negative amount of timing? </TD></TR></TABLE>good question i'll see what it does(not with my car, with a N/A car). and we'll see what effect if any it has, it might just ignore the - sign altogether

Tony the Tiger

Although it is nice to have fully mappable water injection system with pulse width control, sometimes if the engine is relying too much water/meth as anti-detonant means it is too unstable already. Imagine us already having enough trouble controlling fuel only (always running rich AFR's, big pump/injectors/etc), and now you have to do just as good to control the water. Two many parts involved and too many potential problems with controlling both fuel and water at once. I can't see it being reliable and dependable. It's pricey too compared to single stage systems.

From my personal experiences, as long as the water/meth is introduced into the engine a little before peak torque/peak power/peak boost, it will prevent detonation. The real window of time that the engine is in need of anti-detonant is during those peak moments, because if the engine ever needs water to supress detonation whenever it is in boost at all RPM's and all boost ranges, it has went far beyond the octane limit (or the engine is really poorly tuned).

I have my WI system activated at about 12 psi (I'm running total of 18 psi), 5500RPM and over 75% throttle via AEM EMS. I am running about 8-10% of water/meth vs overall fuel volume and I find it safe enough for the engine to run by itself even if the water injection system is not active, but the water is also not too much to be flooding the engine out and losing tons of power. I didn't fully take advantage of the water injection system by vastly leaning out AFR's, but I did bump up the timing a hair bit to recover the lost power and get back to where I was without WI. Now the engine runs at roughly the same power with much more margin of safety, but it not fully dependent on WI in case the system fails. The engine would be at the edge of detonation without the water injection system active though, but it wouldn't blow up right away without it. Unlike folks who vastly lean out AFR's to 12.5 or leaner and increase timing, once the water injection fails, the engine won't even live through one pull.

LeGeND4LiFe

Thanks for sharing, that is useful info.

How much of a reduction in IAT's are you seeing with the water/meth injection, and what kind of mix/solution are you using?

Tony the Tiger

I put the intake air temp sensor before the water nozzle to prevent it from skewing the readings... Water injection's main advantage isn't really pulling heat out of the intake charge, but rather pull the heat inside the combustion chambers.

I've seen about 100-150 deg C reduction in EGT's... I used to hinder around 850-920 deg C during a hot day and on the freeway blasting 4th gear redline pulls... After water injection, the gauge never touched anything near 900deg C. It is better to look at the before and after temp changes rather than the actual temperature because of sensor differences between gauges and location differences (I have my Greddy EGT probe about 1.5" from the exhaust port for cyl #3).

NastyHabitzCRX

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Although it is nice to have fully mappable water injection system with pulse width control, sometimes if the engine is relying too much water/meth as anti-detonant means it is too unstable already. Imagine us already having enough trouble controlling fuel only (always running rich AFR's, big pump/injectors/etc), and now you have to do just as good to control the water. Two many parts involved and too many potential problems with controlling both fuel and water at once. I can't see it being reliable and dependable. It's pricey too compared to single stage systems.

.</TD></TR></TABLE>i agree i never said it would be for the average user to try. i think the single stage idea is best to provde the maximum safety, and avoid end user miscalculation.
BTW is the EMS able to add timing when the water system is active only? im goin to be looking into the s300 sson to try and take advantage of the option for WI.

Pilot

Good points to consider.

Interestingly the theme of water methanol system failing comes up over and over. If ANY component fails under full load like fuel injector, fuel pump, coil, etc then engine damage will likely result. If the water methanol system is that crappy that we have to kludge tune around it then it shouldn't be on the car! The FJO system isn't made for the average tuner project though. We mainly supply water methanol injection systems for high end twin-turbo corvettes, vipers, Porsches, single turbo 600+hp tuner cars, etc. Serious projects needing an industrial engineered system - obviously this costs more money. And on these type of vehicles proper fuel and ignition tuning are a forgone conclusion. Tuners for these projects demand precise control of water methanol injected volume at all times. For the budget tuner cheap systems are more appealing.

Ross.