OaksRacing

The circuit worx oil pump gear has performed well for us at high horsepower.

Johnny O A20 KIller

I have an external oil pump that I did spend a lot of $ on. So going back to a stock pump isn't an thought in my mind.

OaksRacing

I hear you on not wanting to sell your external oil pump - we prototyped the peterson fluid system set up for the H22 - they were a great sponsor then NHRA would not allow them in the SFWD class. This was when we first started using the ATI damper which was to run the external oil pump.

Here is a post I made from over a year ago -Oct 2008 - This was after working with ATI for about 6 months on spacing, sizes etc for their latest and greatest race damper.

I wish you the best of luck - we were never able to overcome the problem using the race damper. I'm sticking with the stock damper and hopefully will be able to race more than 2 passes before building a new motor. Racing for us became a job because of this issue - I'm looking forward to having fun at the track again in 2010.

Oaks Racing Prelude year ending 2008 update

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What a quick year this was. Here is a recap of this year.
Built a new motor for this year and made 882 whp which was a good night - then the next day had to tear the motor apart because the #1 cylinder went lean. So we put it back together and went to the track. Never made it past 2nd gear when all the flywheel bolts backed out along with the crank bolt. The same reoccuring problem from the past 2 years and we had a new damper on the motor - we were ready to call it quits because of all the wasted time and money and we just couldn't get past this problem. About a month went by and we decided one more try going back to a stock damper because that was the only item we had not changed out over this periond of time. So we got another crank, bearings, flywheel and oil pump gear and then found a small crack in the deck of the block. We filled the crack with JB weld just trying to get by without spending any more money. The motor finally held together and so did the block for the moment. Now that we were able to make it past 2nd gear the next problem was the car was all over the track - After 2 steering rack changes this problem went away as well. So we finally had the motor that didn't come apart and the car was going straight. We went to a Wednesday test and turned the boost to 20psi and it ran 11.0 at 135mph with a mis- shift going into 3d. We went to change the plugs and turn up the boost finally - you won't believe what happened next. The sparkplug broke off leaving only the threads in the hole so we loaded the car and went home. I pulled the head to heli coil the spark plug hole to find that the crack in the deck was now a small hole ( between the cylinders is where the deck was bad). This was on a Thursday and our last event here in Denver was Saturday no time to get another block or weld and machine this one. So it was dont race or try JB weld one more time. Applied the JB weld and put everything back together. After Steve did his burn out I already saw water dripping from below. He did get to launch and it was awesome with our best 1.73 60 ft and 4.60 330 then the cylinders filled up puking water out the exhaust and it still ran 11.4 rolling through the traps at only 100 mph.

The 330 was 1/2 second faster than our 3 years ago 10.9 330 mark. We made 2 smart moves this year first was moving to the Garrett line of turbo's - there is no more turbo lag between our gears and the power speaks for itself second was changing the damper. We just ran out of time this year to do anything special, but we feel like we are finally back on the right path. We plan to change the block to a LA sleeve or golden eagle and get rid of the press in sleeves this off season and possibly put the quaife back in the car and drive it on the street again next year. This means we might sell the Rob Moore set up if anyone is seriously interested.

We also have a friend Greg here in Denver that ran 11.2 last weekend with his prelude on E85 and there is a 3d person in Denver that should be there next year both of these cars are well over 600 whp. So preludes will be representing hard core next year in Denver - 2000 whp between the 3 of them all living within 20 min's of eachother - we will need to get a good picture of the cars together. I wish Roger luck this weekend at the fall race in Etown. And good luck to the rest of you guys out there building preludes to race next season - keep them coming!

Steve Sr.

dai-18t

Wow I just bought an ati race damper. This thread makes me not want to use it now. What a waste.

Car is b18c7 darton mid with ls crank rods etc.

Built for a auto X car that will rev to 9k.

Who thinks I would have issues and shouldnot use it?

Johnny O A20 KIller

Quick questions for all you guys going back to the stock dampner. Does tech break your ***** about no dampner because over here they always look for that.

ninesecrx

Damage was probably already done to crank when the bolts came loose. We have lots of people running the ati units with no issues. Plus I have seen engines that broke oil pumps until going to the ATI unit and problem solved.

Johnny O A20 KIller

Is it on the h or b series motors you are talking about. I know alot of guys with b that don't have the problem. it seems like h's. Do you have any insight in the problem friend.

ProPerformance

We had almost the same issue as Oaks. Car ran good for two years changed the turbo set-up and was going to rev it higher so we decided to go with an ATI. We didn't make it 10 pulls on the dyno before the oil pump failed and trashed the motor. We thought maybe it was just a two year old pump and it was just its time, but after reading you post I'm thinking about going back to a stock one and just take the ATI out of the mix. The only diffrence was we didnt have any bolt back out on either end.

Is there any where else you can drive your external pump from?

Johnny O A20 KIller

I don't know but i might be able to run off the stock one but i would never make it through tech.

turbotypeR@SPEC

I would say that is from an old pump that had been ran without a good damper for a while. Besides, the oil pumps just don't last forever anyway. Most people change them out on a regular basis. I change mine at least every season.
This guys issue is not from lack of good parts. He did a 2-3-2 shift. No matter what parts you use, they aren't going to survive what happened to his engine.

Johnny O A20 KIller

They but this happened before that mis-shift. It has happened between the crank bolt or flywheel. Whether on the dyno or at the track it is hapening.

OaksRacing

Any comments I make are specific to the H22 application. People have had great success with ATI race dampers on B18's and other Honda applications.

I contacted Jo Jo several years ago when he was racing on this topic when we started having problems. We let him use the ATI damper we had ordered with Peterson Fluid systems because his was not ready for a race. From memory he ended up not using it because he didn't like the fit on the crank.

We had our second ATI damper made specific for the crank we were using with a press fit. We really tried to get to the root cause of this problem. We even tried the H22 and H23 cranks. My intention is not to hurt ATI's brand name - they are a great company with highly intelligent people and success in the racing industry. I'm just stating facts that we could not hold a high horsepower H22 engine together with there damper. They feel it was something we were doing and after many attempts we agree to disagree.

As far as tech goes - the main reason for the SFI rule is for safety. Ask your tech guru if a steel gaurd similar to a transmission scatter shied could be used because of this problem.

Are there any successful H22 or H23 (same block) race engines running with the ATI race damper? Successful in our case equaling more than a couple passes down the track. All the prelude guys with decent engine power I trade ideas with run the stock damper.

alopez84

I've had great luck with a stock damper that has been balanced for the past 4 years...

REEMB18C1

im running bseries im debatin on goin to the ati dampner or stick with a stock 1

4piston

Everyone I know that has damper issues have sketchy practices as mechanics. Not tq'ing stuff properly, no measuring, dirty garage atmosphere, using old crank pulley bolts, using 15 year old cranks over and over, not having the clutch and flywheel mounted properly etc etc. I'm not saying that is the issue, but there are tons of people running this stuff with zero issues.

Use a new block, new crank, new ATI, and see what happens.

ALL IMPORT

ive been to those shops as well.
even seen cam bolts just put on with a battery impact drills, lol just shook my head & was glade i build my own stuff, lol

Johnny O A20 KIller

My man i use a new crank, new fiywheel with new bolts, cleaned everything, chased out all the treads with a tap, used red loctite, and a brand new hub from ati, had everything balanced together, and torqued everything to spec with red loctite and it still happened. I know that those with b's and k's might not be having these issues, it seems those with h's are have this. I am wondering how out there with a h is having any luck with a damper. If you go through the post the guys with the h's are not having luck with it.

Johnny O A20 KIller

I wish i can reuse a crank after this but you would be crazy after the damage it does to the snout and flywheel side. I also have my torque wrench calibrated every year by the snap-on truck. So it all goes back to the damper. I never had these problems with the stock one at low boost and hp. Up to 500 hp or so.

1fstcorrado

I had issues for while with welding flywheels to cranks and bolts on flywheel coming loose, crank gear shearing, etc...

I tried a different style damper from these guys sfi approved non fluid type damper give them a call I am sure they will help develop one. So far so good
http://www.bhjdynamics.com/index.php...=index&cPath=8

ninesecrx

But the crank was not new after the flywheel came loose on the 2-3-2 shift. That can hurt stuff and your new issue could be the result. Also maybe your oil pump belt is too tight and thats the issue with the snout?

Johnny O A20 KIller

I had new polished and balanced cranks and this happened before. The oil pump belt isn't tight, there is plenty of slack on it. This has happened without an external pump and even with a single disc clutch. It all started with the use of the damper.

Johnny O A20 KIller

Are ypu talking about ati? What other style do they have that ypu have been having luck with?

OaksRacing

I agree with you that people with sketchy practices as you refer to have issues. Myself and those who have worked on our car do not fall into that category. You refer to tons of people running this stuff with zero issues. Please remember we are referring to H series race engines running the ATI damper. Is this what you were referring too?

Steve Sr.

evilone

do you think the H series rotating assembly needs to be balanced more than say a b series? sitting here thinking that honda knew something was up when they put the balance shafts in the motor? i have removed balance shafts on 4g63's for years but they usually dont rev quite as high as johnnys car needs to rev.

93-lsvtec-eh2

i was just about to say it has to be the damper. all these stories all the same issues all with a ati dampner.

post a pic of your oil pump setup now there has to be a way to run the external oil pump with the stock pulley or with a factory style pulley


also try http://www.fluidampr.com/HONDA.htm