Cam degree problems/questions
08-12-2014, 07:46 PM
#1
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Cam degree problems/questions
Asked on the tech forum with zero response a few days ago so I'm trying here for more help.
Rundown is
Gsr with pro1 cams
Vtec is locked in.
True tdc is found.
I'm using the ati race damper as the degree wheel
I was able to degree the exhaust cam buy rotating the damper/degree wheel to 255degrees and the exhaust valve started to open and I rotated the cam gear to reach the .050
Now the issue is with the intake cam.
When I roll the wheel to 255 the cam has opened to full lift just before then.
But if I keep going to 105 degrees which is 255 in the other direction on the wheel
The dial indicator is at .013 open but it is when the cam is coming off of the valve not rolling onto it.
Is the still where I would use the can gear and roll it back to .050?
Or am I doing something wrong?
Rundown is
Gsr with pro1 cams
Vtec is locked in.
True tdc is found.
I'm using the ati race damper as the degree wheel
I was able to degree the exhaust cam buy rotating the damper/degree wheel to 255degrees and the exhaust valve started to open and I rotated the cam gear to reach the .050
Now the issue is with the intake cam.
When I roll the wheel to 255 the cam has opened to full lift just before then.
But if I keep going to 105 degrees which is 255 in the other direction on the wheel
The dial indicator is at .013 open but it is when the cam is coming off of the valve not rolling onto it.
Is the still where I would use the can gear and roll it back to .050?
Or am I doing something wrong?
08-13-2014, 05:45 AM
#2
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Re: Cam degree problems/questions
its probably very difficult to do the cam degreeing witht he ATI damper markings especially if you're doing it for the first time. Its actually not how it works. The cam degrees could be BTDC or ABDC etc and you need to match that to the manufactures specs. some just gives centerlines, some tell you certain degrees at ATDC some ABDC and it all gets comfusing for someone who's doing it for the first time. Google around for a cam degree primer. With the B-series the rotation of the motor is opposite than the typical V8 primers. Invest on a degree wheel (about 20 bucks on Amazon).
If you feel you know what you're doing and you're doing it correctly, then your cam timing could be off as well.
If you feel you know what you're doing and you're doing it correctly, then your cam timing could be off as well.
08-13-2014, 12:15 PM
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Re: Cam degree problems/questions
This is directly from the WEBCAM CAMSHAFT web site. Read through this and it should be very helpfull. This is what I used when I degreed in my cams. I Would also tell you to invest in a degree wheel, some are more difucult to read than others, the WEBCAM CAMSHAFT site has one that makes it very simple. Also use good dial indicator!
WHAT IS DEGREEING IN YOUR CAMSHAFT?
Degreeing in your camshaft means synchronizing the camshaft's position with the crankshaft. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically. If there were no manufacturing tolerances, you would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed, but with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets) all with their own standards and tolerances that when installed, can stack up against you. You can never be sure that the cam is in its correct position until you degree it in. For best performance, you should degree in all performance camshafts.
The basic tools required are a degree wheel, a stable pointer that can be mounted to the engine, a dial indicator with at least one inch of travel in .001" increments, a stand that mounts it to the engine, and a positive stop device to locate TDC.
Web-Cam offers a complete cam degreeing kit, see below for part number information or call for more information.
If you change your timing belt or chain, chain tensioner, cut your head, or deck your block, you must degree in your cams.
FINDING TRUE TOP DEAD CENTER ( TDC )
DISCONNECT THE BATTERY! Do not use the starter to perform any of these steps.
To find Top Dead Center use a piston stop, to stop the piston in the same position on either side of TDC and take readings from the degree wheel. You will then split the difference in these readings and move the pointer this amount, making it the true TDC point.
First mount the degree wheel on the end of the crankshaft, and rotate the engine to approximate TDC
Mount the pointer and line it up at zero on the degree wheel.
Now rotate the engine to move the piston down into the cylinder. Install your positive stop device into the spark plug hole and extend the bolt.
Turn the engine by hand, rotating it until the piston comes up and stops against the piston stop bolt.
Look at the degree wheel and write down the number of degrees shown by the pointer.
Turn the engine by hand in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and stops on the piston stop bolt again.
Go back to the degree wheel and write down the degrees it now reads.
Add these two readings together and divide the answer by two.
Now either move your pointer by this many degrees, or carefully loosen the degree wheel (without disturbing the position of the crankshaft) and move the wheel this required amount.
Retighten the bolts, and rotate the engine again making sure that the readings on each side of TDC are equal degrees away from zero. If they are, the zero on the degree wheel will now be the true TDC point.
Remove the positive stop device from the spark plug hole.
You're now done finding true TDC.
FINDING INTAKE LOBE CENTER LINE
Remove all valve lash (clearance). Place your dial indicator on the valve spring retainer, or tappet. If you are degreeing in a pushrod engine we recommend placing the indicator on the valve retainer. Please be sure the angle of your indicator travels at the same angle that your valve travels. Zero the dial indicator, then turn the engine until you reach full lift and record how far the valve traveled off its fully seated position. This will be the actual valve lift of your desired cam profile. Note: Rocker arm engines can vary. At this point make sure there is additional clearance with your dial indicator to verify plenty of travel for our next step.
Rotate the engine until you are back to Top Dead Center (TDC). Zero your dial indicator. Next you will start turning the engine until you are .050 off the seated position of the valve (It is very important to turn the engine it’s normal way of rotation). Look at the degree wheel and determine how many degrees the valve opened. If we are working on the intake valve this will normally occur Before Top Dead Center (BTDC). Record that number in degrees. NOTE: Some low overlap engines may open After Top Dead Center (ATDC). Record that number in degrees for further calculations.
Look at your inner dial on the dial indicator and record that number to help achieve our next step, however some dial indicators do not have this feature and is not needed to proceed. See WEB CAM camshaft degree kit part #95-144. Proceed to rotate the engine until your inner dial is back on the number it left from. You will notice your big dial is almost back to .050. Slightly move it until it is exactly reads at .050. If you pass it back way up and come at it again. You are now .050 from closing on the opposite side to achieve your next number on the degree wheel, which is normally After Bottom Dead center (ABDC). Now you will use the following steps to properly calculate what actual lobe centers are on the opening valve timing events.
If the valve opened Before Top Dead Center (BTDC) do the following calculation:
Take the open number plus the closing number plus 180°, which will be the duration at .050. Next divide the duration into 2. Subtract the open from that number, which will equals the centerline of the intake cam.
Example:
+10° Opening Before Top Dead Center (BTDC)
+39° Closing After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC)
+180° Distance from Top Dead Center (TDC) to Bottom Dead Center (BDC)
=229° Total Duration @ .050 inches of lift
229°/2 = 114.5°
114.5° - 10° = 104.5° Lobe Center
If the valve opened After Top Dead Center (ATDC) subtract the open from the close plus 180°, which will be your duration at .050. Next divide the duration into 2. Add back the open number, which will equal the centerline of the intake side.
Example:
-10° Opening After Top Dead Center (ATDC)
+39° Closing After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC)
+180° Distance from Top Dead Center (TDC) to Bottom Dead Center (BDC)
=209° Total Duration @ .050 inches of lift
209°/2 = 104.5°
104.5° +10° = 114.5° Lobe Center
If you have adjustable gears move them at this time and redo above procedure.
FINDING EXHAUST LOBE CENTER LINE
Next step is to set up your dial indicator and repeat the above procedure. The exhaust valve normally opens Before Bottom Dead Center (BBDC), and the closing will occur After Top Dead Center (ATDC). On some low overlap cam profiles the exhaust valve may close Before Top Dead Center (BTDC) however, record for further calculations. Once you have achieved your opening and closing events we can precede to the following calculations.
If the exhaust closed After Top Dead Center (ATDC) add the exhaust opening figure to the exhaust closing figure plus 180°, which will equal the duration at .050. Divide the duration by 2. Subtract the closing number, which will equal the centerline of the exhaust side.
Example:
+39° Opening Before Bottom Dead Center (BBDC)
+10° Closing After Top Dead Center (ATDC)
+180° Distance from Bottom Dead Center (BDC) to Top Dead Center (TDC)
=229° Total Duration @ .050 inches of lift
229°/2 = 114.5°
114.5° - 10° = 104.5° Lobe Center
If the exhaust closed Before Top Dead Center (BTDC) subtract the exhaust closing from the opening figure plus 180°, which will equal the duration at .050. Divide the duration by 2. Add back the closing number, which will equal the centerline of the exhaust side.
Example:
+39° Opening Before Bottom Dead Center (BBDC)
-10° Closing Before Top Dead Center (BTDC)
+180° Distance from Bottom Dead Center (BDC) to Top Dead Center (TDC)
=209° Total Duration @ .050 inches of lift
209°/2 = 104.5°
104.5° + 10° = 114.5° Lobe Center
If you have adjustable gears move them at this time and redo above procedure.
ALWAYS CHECK SEVERAL TIMES FOR ACCURACY
CALCULATE LOBE CENTER SEPARATION
Add your intake lobe center line to the exhaust lobe center line, and divide by 2.
( 108° + 110° ) / 2 = 109°
ADJUSTING LOBE CENTER SEPARATION
You may move the cam to the desired lobe center and check again. If you move the lobe centers closer together ( Smaller Number ), it would normally give you more low to mid range. If you move the lobe centers apart ( Larger Number ), it would normally give you more mid to top range. Not all engines can handle tight lobe centers. Certain applications require wider lobe centers, such as stock fuel injected engines or blown applications. For our best recommendation, please call us directly.
CHECKING CLEARANCES
Always check all clearances (i.e. piston to valve, valve to valve), check for coil bind, and check retainer to guide clearance when you degree in your cams.
If you need help, please call us directly.
Thank you.
These instructions are also available in .pdf format.
DEGREEING KIT
Web Cam offers a complete cam degreeing kit with all the parts you need.
Please see part number AP-144
CAM LOBE CENTER / DURATION CALCULATOR
Intake Opens BTDC ( ATDC is - ) : (in degrees)
Intake Closes ABDC: (in degrees)
Exhaust Opens BBDC: (in degrees)
Exhaust Closes ATDC ( BTDC is - ) : (in degrees)
VARYING LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE
Tighten Widen
Moves Torque to Lower RPM Raise Torque to Higher RPM
Increases Maximum Torque Reduces Maximum Torque
Narrow Powerband Broadens Power Band
Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Reduce Maximum Cylinder Pressure
Increase Chance of Engine Knock Decrease Chance of Engine Knock
Increase Cranking Compression Decrease Cranking Compression
Increase Effective Compression Decrease Effective Compression
Idle Vacuum is Reduced Idle Vacuum is Increased
Idle Quality Suffers Idle Quality Improves
Open Valve-Overlap Increases Open Valve-Overlap Decreases
Closed Valve-Overlap Increases Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases
Natural EGR Effect Increases Natural EGR Effect is Reduced
Decreases Piston-to-Valve Clearance Increases Piston-to-Valve Clearance
LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE
Above 114 Deg. = Extremely Wide
114-112 Deg. = Wide
112-110 Deg. = Moderately Wide
110-108 Deg. = Moderate
108-106 Deg. = Moderately Tight
106-104 Deg. = Tight
Below 104 Deg. = Extremely Tight
ADVANCING / RETARDING CAM TIMING
ADVANCING RETARDING
Begins Intake Event Sooner Delays Intake Event Closes Intake
Open Intake Valve Sooner Keeps Intake Valve Open Later
Builds More Low-End Torque Builds More High-End Power
Decrease Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance
Increase Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance
WHAT IS DEGREEING IN YOUR CAMSHAFT?
Degreeing in your camshaft means synchronizing the camshaft's position with the crankshaft. A few degrees of misalignment can affect the engine's operation dramatically. If there were no manufacturing tolerances, you would only need to line up the marks on the timing chain sprockets and the cam would be degreed, but with a group of components (the camshaft, crankshaft, timing chain, and sprockets) all with their own standards and tolerances that when installed, can stack up against you. You can never be sure that the cam is in its correct position until you degree it in. For best performance, you should degree in all performance camshafts.
The basic tools required are a degree wheel, a stable pointer that can be mounted to the engine, a dial indicator with at least one inch of travel in .001" increments, a stand that mounts it to the engine, and a positive stop device to locate TDC.
Web-Cam offers a complete cam degreeing kit, see below for part number information or call for more information.
If you change your timing belt or chain, chain tensioner, cut your head, or deck your block, you must degree in your cams.
FINDING TRUE TOP DEAD CENTER ( TDC )
DISCONNECT THE BATTERY! Do not use the starter to perform any of these steps.
To find Top Dead Center use a piston stop, to stop the piston in the same position on either side of TDC and take readings from the degree wheel. You will then split the difference in these readings and move the pointer this amount, making it the true TDC point.
First mount the degree wheel on the end of the crankshaft, and rotate the engine to approximate TDC
Mount the pointer and line it up at zero on the degree wheel.
Now rotate the engine to move the piston down into the cylinder. Install your positive stop device into the spark plug hole and extend the bolt.
Turn the engine by hand, rotating it until the piston comes up and stops against the piston stop bolt.
Look at the degree wheel and write down the number of degrees shown by the pointer.
Turn the engine by hand in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and stops on the piston stop bolt again.
Go back to the degree wheel and write down the degrees it now reads.
Add these two readings together and divide the answer by two.
Now either move your pointer by this many degrees, or carefully loosen the degree wheel (without disturbing the position of the crankshaft) and move the wheel this required amount.
Retighten the bolts, and rotate the engine again making sure that the readings on each side of TDC are equal degrees away from zero. If they are, the zero on the degree wheel will now be the true TDC point.
Remove the positive stop device from the spark plug hole.
You're now done finding true TDC.
FINDING INTAKE LOBE CENTER LINE
Remove all valve lash (clearance). Place your dial indicator on the valve spring retainer, or tappet. If you are degreeing in a pushrod engine we recommend placing the indicator on the valve retainer. Please be sure the angle of your indicator travels at the same angle that your valve travels. Zero the dial indicator, then turn the engine until you reach full lift and record how far the valve traveled off its fully seated position. This will be the actual valve lift of your desired cam profile. Note: Rocker arm engines can vary. At this point make sure there is additional clearance with your dial indicator to verify plenty of travel for our next step.
Rotate the engine until you are back to Top Dead Center (TDC). Zero your dial indicator. Next you will start turning the engine until you are .050 off the seated position of the valve (It is very important to turn the engine it’s normal way of rotation). Look at the degree wheel and determine how many degrees the valve opened. If we are working on the intake valve this will normally occur Before Top Dead Center (BTDC). Record that number in degrees. NOTE: Some low overlap engines may open After Top Dead Center (ATDC). Record that number in degrees for further calculations.
Look at your inner dial on the dial indicator and record that number to help achieve our next step, however some dial indicators do not have this feature and is not needed to proceed. See WEB CAM camshaft degree kit part #95-144. Proceed to rotate the engine until your inner dial is back on the number it left from. You will notice your big dial is almost back to .050. Slightly move it until it is exactly reads at .050. If you pass it back way up and come at it again. You are now .050 from closing on the opposite side to achieve your next number on the degree wheel, which is normally After Bottom Dead center (ABDC). Now you will use the following steps to properly calculate what actual lobe centers are on the opening valve timing events.
If the valve opened Before Top Dead Center (BTDC) do the following calculation:
Take the open number plus the closing number plus 180°, which will be the duration at .050. Next divide the duration into 2. Subtract the open from that number, which will equals the centerline of the intake cam.
Example:
+10° Opening Before Top Dead Center (BTDC)
+39° Closing After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC)
+180° Distance from Top Dead Center (TDC) to Bottom Dead Center (BDC)
=229° Total Duration @ .050 inches of lift
229°/2 = 114.5°
114.5° - 10° = 104.5° Lobe Center
If the valve opened After Top Dead Center (ATDC) subtract the open from the close plus 180°, which will be your duration at .050. Next divide the duration into 2. Add back the open number, which will equal the centerline of the intake side.
Example:
-10° Opening After Top Dead Center (ATDC)
+39° Closing After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC)
+180° Distance from Top Dead Center (TDC) to Bottom Dead Center (BDC)
=209° Total Duration @ .050 inches of lift
209°/2 = 104.5°
104.5° +10° = 114.5° Lobe Center
If you have adjustable gears move them at this time and redo above procedure.
FINDING EXHAUST LOBE CENTER LINE
Next step is to set up your dial indicator and repeat the above procedure. The exhaust valve normally opens Before Bottom Dead Center (BBDC), and the closing will occur After Top Dead Center (ATDC). On some low overlap cam profiles the exhaust valve may close Before Top Dead Center (BTDC) however, record for further calculations. Once you have achieved your opening and closing events we can precede to the following calculations.
If the exhaust closed After Top Dead Center (ATDC) add the exhaust opening figure to the exhaust closing figure plus 180°, which will equal the duration at .050. Divide the duration by 2. Subtract the closing number, which will equal the centerline of the exhaust side.
Example:
+39° Opening Before Bottom Dead Center (BBDC)
+10° Closing After Top Dead Center (ATDC)
+180° Distance from Bottom Dead Center (BDC) to Top Dead Center (TDC)
=229° Total Duration @ .050 inches of lift
229°/2 = 114.5°
114.5° - 10° = 104.5° Lobe Center
If the exhaust closed Before Top Dead Center (BTDC) subtract the exhaust closing from the opening figure plus 180°, which will equal the duration at .050. Divide the duration by 2. Add back the closing number, which will equal the centerline of the exhaust side.
Example:
+39° Opening Before Bottom Dead Center (BBDC)
-10° Closing Before Top Dead Center (BTDC)
+180° Distance from Bottom Dead Center (BDC) to Top Dead Center (TDC)
=209° Total Duration @ .050 inches of lift
209°/2 = 104.5°
104.5° + 10° = 114.5° Lobe Center
If you have adjustable gears move them at this time and redo above procedure.
ALWAYS CHECK SEVERAL TIMES FOR ACCURACY
CALCULATE LOBE CENTER SEPARATION
Add your intake lobe center line to the exhaust lobe center line, and divide by 2.
( 108° + 110° ) / 2 = 109°
ADJUSTING LOBE CENTER SEPARATION
You may move the cam to the desired lobe center and check again. If you move the lobe centers closer together ( Smaller Number ), it would normally give you more low to mid range. If you move the lobe centers apart ( Larger Number ), it would normally give you more mid to top range. Not all engines can handle tight lobe centers. Certain applications require wider lobe centers, such as stock fuel injected engines or blown applications. For our best recommendation, please call us directly.
CHECKING CLEARANCES
Always check all clearances (i.e. piston to valve, valve to valve), check for coil bind, and check retainer to guide clearance when you degree in your cams.
If you need help, please call us directly.
Thank you.
These instructions are also available in .pdf format.
DEGREEING KIT
Web Cam offers a complete cam degreeing kit with all the parts you need.
Please see part number AP-144
CAM LOBE CENTER / DURATION CALCULATOR
Intake Opens BTDC ( ATDC is - ) : (in degrees)
Intake Closes ABDC: (in degrees)
Exhaust Opens BBDC: (in degrees)
Exhaust Closes ATDC ( BTDC is - ) : (in degrees)
VARYING LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE
Tighten Widen
Moves Torque to Lower RPM Raise Torque to Higher RPM
Increases Maximum Torque Reduces Maximum Torque
Narrow Powerband Broadens Power Band
Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Reduce Maximum Cylinder Pressure
Increase Chance of Engine Knock Decrease Chance of Engine Knock
Increase Cranking Compression Decrease Cranking Compression
Increase Effective Compression Decrease Effective Compression
Idle Vacuum is Reduced Idle Vacuum is Increased
Idle Quality Suffers Idle Quality Improves
Open Valve-Overlap Increases Open Valve-Overlap Decreases
Closed Valve-Overlap Increases Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases
Natural EGR Effect Increases Natural EGR Effect is Reduced
Decreases Piston-to-Valve Clearance Increases Piston-to-Valve Clearance
LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE
Above 114 Deg. = Extremely Wide
114-112 Deg. = Wide
112-110 Deg. = Moderately Wide
110-108 Deg. = Moderate
108-106 Deg. = Moderately Tight
106-104 Deg. = Tight
Below 104 Deg. = Extremely Tight
ADVANCING / RETARDING CAM TIMING
ADVANCING RETARDING
Begins Intake Event Sooner Delays Intake Event Closes Intake
Open Intake Valve Sooner Keeps Intake Valve Open Later
Builds More Low-End Torque Builds More High-End Power
Decrease Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance
Increase Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance
08-13-2014, 04:03 PM
#4
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Re: Cam degree problems/questions
Something I noticed while reading your directions tuhboek is that you are finding the center by measuring where the valve opens and closes. (or 0.050 from there) For a second I thought sh*t I did mine wrong and have to redo them AGAIN. But I dug out the directions I used and if I understand them, some manufacturers call out peak lift as the lobe center?
I don't know enough about cams to know if the peak lift always falls in the center of the duration at 0.050, but I would think that it doesn't necessarily have to. I know the lobe doesn't look symmetrical to me at least, and doesn't seem safe to assume is.
I attached what I went off of, and it describes going off peak lift, but the tables for the specs state center.
Let me know if I'm wrong, I don't know what I'm doing this is the first engine I degreed.
I don't know enough about cams to know if the peak lift always falls in the center of the duration at 0.050, but I would think that it doesn't necessarily have to. I know the lobe doesn't look symmetrical to me at least, and doesn't seem safe to assume is.
I attached what I went off of, and it describes going off peak lift, but the tables for the specs state center.
Let me know if I'm wrong, I don't know what I'm doing this is the first engine I degreed.
08-13-2014, 05:19 PM
#5
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Re: Cam degree problems/questions
When it somes to degreeing, there is more than one way to do it from what I understand. Of course you will need to go off of what your cam card says, amd each manufacture will probably have a certin way of discribing how to degree your cams. I found it easiest to go with the .050 open and closed position. Of course you will need to find true TDC (either with a piston stop) which is what I like to use or a dial indicator. Then you rotate the crankshaft until the valve is .050 open and check what your degree wheel reads. If it is off by a few degrees, than adjust that camshaft cam gear accordingly. Each mark on my camshaft camgear = 2 degrees. So very little moves on the camgear will make large changes on the degree wheel.
08-13-2014, 06:52 PM
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Re: Cam degree problems/questions
According to the centerline from sk2 site the cams have peek lift at the correct position. But I just find that highly unlikely since I haven't changed the cam gears at all. The only thing that the web cams site does for me is helps me find centerline which is already given to me on sk2.
I seriously just feel way to lost and no one in my area has degreed a set in to come help. Half temped to just put stock cams in and say screw it at this point. Totally have been defeated from this damn thing
I seriously just feel way to lost and no one in my area has degreed a set in to come help. Half temped to just put stock cams in and say screw it at this point. Totally have been defeated from this damn thing
08-13-2014, 08:12 PM
#7
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Re: Cam degree problems/questions
After more and more searching and random YouTube videos I think I have it figured out. The problem I think that was really messing me up is that it seems most people use the 180 wheel and I'm using the 360 so doing all the math was screwing me. Going to give it another crack tomorrow after work.
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08-14-2014, 02:32 PM
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Re: Cam degree problems/questions
i'm fighting my way through this as well so don't feel bad… there is a sticky in the a/m forum that has some good information.
08-14-2014, 05:37 PM
#10
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Re: Cam degree problems/questions
this often gets over complicated by more and more peoples 2 cents being thrown in. I have been confused before by the certain wheel i was using because it was a 360 rather than a 180.
As long as your timing is set correctly, you dial to where you need to be, and set the max lift on the cam. My new "sheepey" cams really threw me off because they wanted way different settings from the previous skunk2 cams. I was questioning it at first, but it makes tha powa!
As long as your timing is set correctly, you dial to where you need to be, and set the max lift on the cam. My new "sheepey" cams really threw me off because they wanted way different settings from the previous skunk2 cams. I was questioning it at first, but it makes tha powa!
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