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Old 05-07-2013, 07:49 PM
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Default Is my setup decent?

I have a 2000 Honda Accord SE with the factory HU. I have a
Polk/Momo C500.1 amp hooked up to 2 12" Kicker L7 in a ported enclosure. The amp is hooked up to the rear speakers with a LOC. The gain on the amp is maxed out any less and i wouldn't be able to feel the punch of the woofers. Would a bigger amp make my subwoofer sound better? Any suggestion would help, Thanks!

Last edited by kni9ht; 05-07-2013 at 08:39 PM.
Old 05-08-2013, 06:32 AM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

You're supposed to match the power output of the amp with the subwoofer. Underpowering subs is just as bad as overpowering them.

At least that's what I remembered when I was heavy into car audio.
Old 05-08-2013, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Originally Posted by grumblemarc
You're supposed to match the power output of the amp with the subwoofer. Underpowering subs is just as bad as overpowering them.

At least that's what I remembered when I was heavy into car audio.
Not true at all.

What happens when u turn the volume down? Aren't you essentially "underpowering" the sub?
Old 05-08-2013, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

That's just stating the obvious and stupid and NOT what I was getting at. So what happens when you have a woofer that the amp can't keep up with and you have to max the amp out just to get the woofer to perform? When I did it the amp overheated constantly and kept shutting off. Think that's something you want to keep doing constantly? I'm talking power output. Not volume control.
Old 05-08-2013, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Originally Posted by grumblemarc
That's just stating the obvious and stupid and NOT what I was getting at. So what happens when you have a woofer that the amp can't keep up with and you have to max the amp out just to get the woofer to perform? When I did it the amp overheated constantly and kept shutting off. Think that's something you want to keep doing constantly? I'm talking power output. Not volume control.
Underpowering subs is the fastest way to blow them and fry your amp, it is always better to have a amp that will overpower your subs and keep the gain turned down then have an underpowered amp at max gain. It is harder to tell when a sub amp is clipping because of the sheer volume your subs are producing, it is much easier to hear it on door/deck speakers because you can here the distortion or lack of clarity. Personally I had one Alpine Type R 10" with a JL 1000.1 running it for 5 years with the gain at 50-60%.
Old 05-09-2013, 03:13 AM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Clipping! That's the term I was looking for!
Old 05-09-2013, 04:01 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Firstly, the gain doesn't work like that. It's not a volume ****. All it does is match up the voltage from the head unit to the amp.

2nd, clipping is bad, but under powering and clipping do not correlate with one another.

Underpowering has never blown a speaker, clipping and stupidity has.

Someone pushing an amp past it's limits has nothing to do with underpowering..it has to do with stupidity.
Old 05-09-2013, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Didn't say it was. Tell that to people that try to use it like a bass booster.

Sure it does.

At least one other person seems to disagree with you. And so does every reference on Google.

No. The amp being underpowered in relation to the sub does. The idiot trying to make it do something it wasn't designed to do simply causes the problem to happen. If I light my house on fire it will burn.

But really, I'm not here to argue. I'm not an expert at this anymore. Haven't been for some time.
Old 05-09-2013, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Take a read
Manville on average power over time:

The only thing that thermally damages speakers is power... more specifically: average power over time.

I'll explain...

If you take a given amplifier, let's say 100 watts and operate it just below clipping with music material, the "Crest Factor" of the amplifier's output is equivalent to the "Crest Factor" of the program material.

"Crest Factor" is the difference between the average level of the signal and its peak level. For example, a pure sine wave has a "crest factor" of 3dB, meaning that it's peak level is 3dB higher than its average level. We all know that 3dB represents a power factor of 2, so another way to look at it is that the peak power of the signal is twice that of its average level. So, if we play a sine wave on our 100 watt amplifier, just below its clipping level, the average power (over time) the speaker is needing to dissipate is 50 watts.

A true square wave, by comparison, has a crest factor of 0db, so it has equal average and peak power. Our 100 watt amplifier, playing a square wave, unclipped, into our speaker requires that the speaker dissipates 100 watts of power (twice the heat as a sine wave).

Music has a significantly higher crest factor than sine waves or square waves. A highly dynamic recording (Sheffield Lab, Chesky, etc.) typically has a crest factor of 20dB or more, meaning that its average power is 100 times lower than its peak power. So, if we play our 100 watt amplifier just below clipping with the typical audiophile recording our speaker is only needing to dissipate 1 watt of average power over time.

Modern commercial recordings typically exhibit crest factors of around 10dB, meaning that the average power is 10 times lower than the peak power. So, our 100 watt amp just below clipping would deliver an average power over time of 10 watts that the speaker has to dissipate.

Okay, so what happens when we clip the amplifier (which we all do at times). When the amplifier enters into clipping, the peak power no longer increases, but here's the KEY... THE AVERAGE POWER CONTINUES TO INCREASE. We can often tolerate a fair amount of clipping... as much as 10 dB or more above clipping with a reasonably dynamic recording... a bit less with a compressed commercial recording.

So, if we turn the volume up 10dB higher than the clipping level with our Sheffield Lab recording, we have now reduced the crest factor of the signal reaching the speakers by 10dB... so instead of needing to dissipate 1 watt average, we are asking the speaker to dissipate 10 watts average, and we're probably ok.

If we turn up the volume 6dB past clipping on a compressed commercial recording (or bass music recording), we have taken the crest factor of the signal from a starting point of 10dB to only 4dB, asking the speaker to dissipate an average power of 40 watts instead of 10 watts... that's FOUR TIMES the average power, which generates four times the heat.

SO, in most cases, the reason clipping can damage a speaker really has nothing to do with anything other than an increase in average power over time. It's really not the shape of the wave or distortion... it's simply more power over time.

When someone plays Bass Mekanik clean (unclipped) on a 1000 watt amplifier the average power is 100 watts (10dB crest factor). You can also make 100 watts average with Bass Mekanik by heavily clipping a 200 watt amplifier.

If someone is blowing a woofer with 200 watts of power due to a lack of restraint with the volume control... they will blow it even faster with a 1000 watt amplifier because they will probably turn it up even more and now they have more power to play with... this is the recipe for aroma of voice coil.

When woofers are rated for power, an unclipped signal is assumed. We use test signal with a crest factor of 6dB for power testing and can run a speaker at its rated power for hours and hours on end without thermal or mechanical failure. For example, a W1v2 can dissipate 150 watts average power for eight hours or more with signal peaks of 600 watts. So, we rate the speaker for 150W continuous power. This way, when a customer needs to choose an amp for it, they will hopefully choose one that can make about 150 W clean power... Even if they clip the bejeezus out of that amplifier, it is unlikely that the speaker will fail thermally. This is a conservative method, but it needs to account for the high cabin temperatures in a car (think Arizona in the summer) which significantly impacts heat dissipation in the speaker. A top plate that starts at 150 degrees F is not as effective at removing heat as one that starts at 72 degrees F in the lab... and this affects the ramp up of heat in the coil.

DISCLAIMER: The frequency components of clipping can affect tweeters due to their low inductance and lack of low-pass filtering. Clipping essentially raises the average power of high frequencies to a point that can damage tweeters... Woofers and midranges couldn't care less about these high frequency components because their filtering and/or inherent inductance knocks that stuff out of the picture.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
That's from a higher up at JL audio.

I'm positive he knows more than all 3 of us, lol.
Old 05-09-2013, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

I've seen my fair share of "experts" post up stuff on the internet. The last one was a guy that said shocks could not be blown and that it was impossible. So I'll take this with a grain of salt. And if what i glanced over is true, he pretty much said clipping DOES damage speakers. How it does it, I don't care.
Old 05-09-2013, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

I have absolutely no clipping or distortion. I even faded the sound all the way to the front speakers to test, so that there would be no sound coming from the subs. I use a cassette tape with an auxiliary connected to my iPhone and I've always learned to keep the volume at 3/4 on my iPhone to avoid distortion. So i can turn my car's volume pretty high up.

I've blast my subs for 15 - 20 mins straight commuting and when i feel the sub it's not hot at all. It has also never cut off before either.

If the gain isn't maxed out i won't be able to feel the punch that the sub is suppose to give. The bass boost makes the sub sound ugly so i just set it off.
Old 05-09-2013, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

We both agree that clipping is bad news bears. What i'm tryin' to say is, the 2 don't have anything to do with one another.

OP, What is the low pass set to? what kinda box? sealed? ported? box specs?

The subs can work better with more power, but your enclosure plays a huge role in this, too.
Old 05-09-2013, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Originally Posted by edzy
We both agree that clipping is bad news bears. What i'm tryin' to say is, the 2 don't have anything to do with one another.

OP, What is the low pass set to? what kinda box? sealed? ported? box specs?

The subs can work better with more power, but your enclosure plays a huge role in this, too.
My Low pass filter is set to about 80-85 hz. There's a switch for the crossover 12db and 24db, i switched it to 12db cause that seems to give it a tighter quicker bass while the 24db gave it more of a resonating bass (which i didn't like). My subs are in a ported enclosure, not sure about the dimensions but its pretty big.
Old 05-09-2013, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

since it's ported, what's the subsonic set to?

edit

just read the specs

no subsonic filter on this amp. Something you need since you have a vented enclosure.
Old 05-11-2013, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Originally Posted by edzy
since it's ported, what's the subsonic set to?

edit

just read the specs

no subsonic filter on this amp. Something you need since you have a vented enclosure.
ah so i need an amp with a subsonic filter? My amp currently has only the LPF.
is HPF and subsonic filter the same thing?
Old 05-11-2013, 03:38 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

If you had both, you can use it as a fake subsonic

When a box is vented, you want to cut it off from playing anything below what it's tuned to.

So if you have a box tuned to 30hz, you want to set the subsonic to 30 so it doesn't play anything below that.
Old 05-13-2013, 12:41 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Anyone know the best bang for the buck amp that could run my setup?
Old 05-13-2013, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

what ohm load are the subs
Old 05-13-2013, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Originally Posted by kni9ht
I have a 2000 Honda Accord SE with the factory HU. I have a
Polk/Momo C500.1 amp hooked up to 2 12" Kicker L7 in a ported enclosure. The amp is hooked up to the rear speakers with a LOC. The gain on the amp is maxed out any less and i wouldn't be able to feel the punch of the woofers. Would a bigger amp make my subwoofer sound better? Any suggestion would help, Thanks!
You're vastly under powering those subs. Also, that gain on an amp should never be maxed out; set the gain properly regardless of how the bass feels. Is your box designed for those subs or is it a generic box?

Out of curiosity, how are the subs wired to the amp?
Old 05-13-2013, 01:57 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Originally Posted by edzy
what ohm load are the subs
4ohms.

Originally Posted by mechanix619
You're vastly under powering those subs. Also, that gain on an amp should never be maxed out; set the gain properly regardless of how the bass feels. Is your box designed for those subs or is it a generic box?

Out of curiosity, how are the subs wired to the amp?
the subs are connected to the output terminals of the amp. Sub1 and sub2.
Here is a the manual to my amp. I have it set up exactly as in page 14.

Yes my box was made for these subs.
Old 05-13-2013, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

You don't have boxes made for a sub

You have them made for a specific cabin & listening preferences.

If you went with what the manufacturer recommended, i'd suggest a new design.

This amp will work well
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...I-P1000.1.html
Old 05-13-2013, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Originally Posted by kni9ht
4ohms.



the subs are connected to the output terminals of the amp. Sub1 and sub2.
Here is a the manual to my amp. I have it set up exactly as in page 14.

Yes my box was made for these subs.

So the subs are dual 4 ohm?

Are you sure its page 14? Page 14 is for one sub.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Originally Posted by edzy
You don't have boxes made for a sub
Incorrect.


Originally Posted by edzy
You have them made for a specific cabin & listening preferences.
Correct, as long as the box takes into account the Thiele-Small specifications of the sub.
Old 05-13-2013, 08:00 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Originally Posted by mechanix619
Incorrect.




Correct, as long as the box takes into account the Thiele-Small specifications of the sub.
I worded that wrong, lol.
Old 05-13-2013, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Is my setup decent?

Originally Posted by mechanix619
So the subs are dual 4 ohm?

Are you sure its page 14? Page 14 is for one sub.
I'm sorry my computer shows 2 pages at once. Its on page 15.
http://www.polk-audio.ru/instr/168_P...ManualC500.pdf

The subs are rated at 2ohms each. 12" Kicker L7 Solobaric.


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