valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
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valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
hey guys, i have looked around and some people have reported measuring .055" valve to valve clearance for a stock b16 head. i am working on a motor with a b16 head, stock size supertech vaves, and skunk 2 pro 2 cams. with zero valve lash, im getting approximately .020" valve to valve clearance at 0/0.
Does anyone know what clearances I should be running for valve to valve? Are these clearances smaller that normal for these cams in this head at 0/0? This seems small to me.
Thanks
Does anyone know what clearances I should be running for valve to valve? Are these clearances smaller that normal for these cams in this head at 0/0? This seems small to me.
Thanks
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Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams (clean rice)
Thank you. I assume your talking about Don, hopefully he will get back to me soon. in the mean time, if anyone else knows please chime in.
#5
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Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams (Honda-bond)
Advance the EX. .020 is too tight. You are probably at around 100 EX. centerline, it needs to be 105.
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Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams (DonF)
Okay got it. My cams may not be degreed correctly. So i need to use a degree wheel and insure the cams are properly degreed and then re-check the valve to valve clearance. So the exhaust needs to be at 105 degrees at the lobe center...what is the intake supposed to be?....Thanks for your help Don, Ill update this post and illustrate the process when its finished.
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Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams (Honda-bond)
Opps just found skunks recommendation for the skunk 2 pro 2 cams:
Intake:
Opening: 31 deg BTDC
Peak lift: 99 deg ATDC
Closing: 46 deg ABDC
Exhaust:
Opening: 58 deg BBDC
Peak lift: 106 deg BTDC
Closing: 25 deg ATDC
Modified by Honda-bond at 10:42 AM 10/12/2008
Intake:
Opening: 31 deg BTDC
Peak lift: 99 deg ATDC
Closing: 46 deg ABDC
Exhaust:
Opening: 58 deg BBDC
Peak lift: 106 deg BTDC
Closing: 25 deg ATDC
Modified by Honda-bond at 10:42 AM 10/12/2008
#10
Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
This is the process how the Cams were Degreed:
Setup:
-We printed out a reasonably large (8-10inches in diameter) degree wheel off the internet. We glued the degree wheel to thick tag board to stiffen the paper. A hole was cut in the center of the degree wheel for the crank pulley bolt. Cut out the hole in the degree wheel so the crank bolt fits snug.
-With the degree wheel sandwiched between the crank bolt and the crankshaft torque the bolt to Honda's recommendation. Torquing the crank bolt will insure the the bolt will not loosen when rotating the crank counterclockwise by hand.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy...0Wheel%202.JPG
-We used a magnetic base and a dial indicator to do all our measurements.
-Make sure the magnetic base is stably secured to the motor. We used the steel motor mount near piston number one.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy...0/IMG_0428.jpg
-Set the cam adjustment pulleys to zero. Torque the pulleys the the cam as specified by the cam manufacture.(Skunk has recommended 22 ft-lbs)
-Remember Assembly lube is your friend! You will be rotating to motor over may times, so protecting that investment is key.
Procedure for degreeing the cams:
-Since the cams are degreed with vtec engaged we need to lock the #1 exhaust and Intake rocker assembles into the vtec position. An easy way to do this is: remove the rocker assembly remove the oil actuated pin from one of the side rockers and sandwich a small item between the pin and the rocker so the pin sticks out about an 1/8 inch. We used a small Lego part for this. It will be the side rocker without the spring.
To remove the pin: A careful tap with the hand will allow the pin to slide right out. Note the direction of the of the pin. A simple sharpy dot on the end of the pin will do the trick. Tolerances are high with these parts and they tend to wear together, so make sure the parts go back together the way they came out. Okay you have removed the pin and have noted it's orientation. We want the actuating pin to protrude from end rocker (This will lock all three rockers together). We did this using a small Lego part. If you can't use a Lego part use something clean and softer then the metal around it , so it won't scratch sliding surfaces.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy...0/IMG_0342.jpg
With the head removed from the block:
First Check Valve to Valve:
-With the head removed from the block, cams installed, and #1 rocker assembles locked.
-We adjusted the valve clearance to 0.000" lash
-We adjusted the cam pulleys to EX: 3deg Advanced IN: 0deg
-Align the pulleys to head
-Wrap an old timing belt around Intake and Exhaust Cam Gear. We used Vise-grips to hold the belt tight against the cam pulleys.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy.../IMG_0922m.JPG
-Rotate cams while watching Exhaust to Intake valve to valve clearances, making sure the valves do not contact each other.
-Valve to Valve Clearance of the Skunk2 Pro2 cams was 0.032" with the EX:3deg IN:0deg. We decided the minimum valve to valve clearance we were comfortable with was .040" based on skunks recommendation of .040" minimum valve to valve clearance. This means that exhaust must be advanced relative to the intake by at least 4 degrees at all times.
- We set our cams to EX: 3.5 deg and IN: -.5 deg. Any adjustments we make on the dyno can not cut into our 4 deg cam separation. for example, we can advance the intake, but exhaust must be advanced with it to maintain 4 deg cam separation. We are also limited on dyno adjustments based on piston to valve clearances discussed below.
Degreeing Cams:
-With the head removed from block
-We Installed the degree wheel and torqued 'Crank Pulley Bolt' to Honda's specification.
-Mount paper or cardboard to the block behind the Degree wheel. This is used to mark TDC, and mark will be used as the reference mark when degreeing the cams.
-Find TDC with the dial indicator. Rotate crank with dial indicator referenced off top of the piston.
-Mark the cardboard where the degree wheel is at TDC.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy...ee%20Wheel.JPG
-#1 rocker assembles locked so vtec is engaged
-Bolt on the head.
-Adjust the valve lash for normal operation. For the pro2's IN:0.007" EX:0.008"(recommended by skunk for opening and closing numbers)
-Adjust the adjustable cam pulleys to EX: 3 IN:0 (or just make sure cams are separated enough to ensure valves don't hit)
-Install the cams. Make sure the reference marks on the pulleys line up with the casting on the head.
-Install timing belt per proper Honda procedures and adjust tension.
-Mount the magnetic base and dial indicator to steel motor mount.
-Adjust the dial indicator so it's referenced off the valve retainer not the valve stem. Make sure the indicator is plunged enough so when the valve is fully open the dial indicator is still touching the valve retainer. With the Pro2's the dial indicator was plunged 0.650"
-We referenced Skunks cam shaft specification sheet for the pro2s.
-We needed to find peek lift and set them to skunks recommendation.
-We rotated the motor while watching the dial indicator.
-We noted the reference mark on the degree wheel when the valve was fully open (dial indicator stopped moving) for both the exhaust and intake. Note: for the pro2s peek is at a range of 6 degrees so take the average from when the needle stops and starts moving (or when the valve reaches peak and then begins to close). Example our exhaust stopped moving at 110 BTDC and started moving at 102 BTDCso the average is 106 BTDC.
-We needed to adjust the cams to hit skunks target values for the pro2 cams. Skunks Pro2 peek values are EX: 106 BTDC IN: 99 ATDC
-For our setup the cam pulleys ended up at EX: 6 deg Advanced IN: 3 deg advanced
This is dependent on block height and head gasket thickness so don't set you cams to these settings without doing previous steps.
Measuring Opening and Closing Specs
-Lash is set to EX: 0.008" IN: 0.007" (per skunk recommendations)
-when the valve opens 0.040" record the the valve on the degree wheel. This is the "Opening" spec.
-when the valve is about 0.040" from closing record the value in the degree wheel. This is the "Closing" spec.
Claying the Piston:
-We did this after degreeing the cams.
-With the head removed from the block place clay pieces on the piston. Coating the top of the piston and valves with a light spray of WD40 will keep the clay from sticking.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy...e%20Piston.JPG
-Install the head
-Use the intended head gasket with intended operation thickness (we used .036" for our build to give us 11.5-11.8 compression ratio)
-Lash was set to 0.000" (to simulate normal operating temperature)
-#1 rocker assembles locked so vtec is engaged
-Install timing belt per proper Honda procedures, and adjust tension.
-Rotate engine twice
-Measure the clay thickness where the valves and head depressed the clay. For the pro2 cams with 11.5/1 compression Weisco pistons at 0.000" lash: Exhaust clearance 0.130" Intake Clearance 0.110" piston to head 0.046".
-For our build we are running a minimum of 0.080" for exhaust, 0.060" for intake, and .040" for piston to head clearance. This is conservative but we are okay with that.
-In order to find the maximum you can retard the exhaust and maximum you can advance the intake on the dyno you need to continue claying the piston at different cam positions to find the limits. Be careful here. keep the cams separated by the amount needed to give good valve to valve clearance. For us, we must keep the valves separated by 4 degrees to ensure they don't come close to hitting while doing the claying. To find the max exhaust retard, we adjusted the cam gears until the clay was .080" thick. This gave us a max retard of -6 degrees. The intake had no maximum value.
-Some people on Honda-Tech have run as close as .030" piston to head clearance. The best thing to do is calculate your piston and rod elongation due to temperature and acceleration. We did this for our set up and got .020" elongation.
Setup:
-We printed out a reasonably large (8-10inches in diameter) degree wheel off the internet. We glued the degree wheel to thick tag board to stiffen the paper. A hole was cut in the center of the degree wheel for the crank pulley bolt. Cut out the hole in the degree wheel so the crank bolt fits snug.
-With the degree wheel sandwiched between the crank bolt and the crankshaft torque the bolt to Honda's recommendation. Torquing the crank bolt will insure the the bolt will not loosen when rotating the crank counterclockwise by hand.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy...0Wheel%202.JPG
-We used a magnetic base and a dial indicator to do all our measurements.
-Make sure the magnetic base is stably secured to the motor. We used the steel motor mount near piston number one.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy...0/IMG_0428.jpg
-Set the cam adjustment pulleys to zero. Torque the pulleys the the cam as specified by the cam manufacture.(Skunk has recommended 22 ft-lbs)
-Remember Assembly lube is your friend! You will be rotating to motor over may times, so protecting that investment is key.
Procedure for degreeing the cams:
-Since the cams are degreed with vtec engaged we need to lock the #1 exhaust and Intake rocker assembles into the vtec position. An easy way to do this is: remove the rocker assembly remove the oil actuated pin from one of the side rockers and sandwich a small item between the pin and the rocker so the pin sticks out about an 1/8 inch. We used a small Lego part for this. It will be the side rocker without the spring.
To remove the pin: A careful tap with the hand will allow the pin to slide right out. Note the direction of the of the pin. A simple sharpy dot on the end of the pin will do the trick. Tolerances are high with these parts and they tend to wear together, so make sure the parts go back together the way they came out. Okay you have removed the pin and have noted it's orientation. We want the actuating pin to protrude from end rocker (This will lock all three rockers together). We did this using a small Lego part. If you can't use a Lego part use something clean and softer then the metal around it , so it won't scratch sliding surfaces.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy...0/IMG_0342.jpg
With the head removed from the block:
First Check Valve to Valve:
-With the head removed from the block, cams installed, and #1 rocker assembles locked.
-We adjusted the valve clearance to 0.000" lash
-We adjusted the cam pulleys to EX: 3deg Advanced IN: 0deg
-Align the pulleys to head
-Wrap an old timing belt around Intake and Exhaust Cam Gear. We used Vise-grips to hold the belt tight against the cam pulleys.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy.../IMG_0922m.JPG
-Rotate cams while watching Exhaust to Intake valve to valve clearances, making sure the valves do not contact each other.
-Valve to Valve Clearance of the Skunk2 Pro2 cams was 0.032" with the EX:3deg IN:0deg. We decided the minimum valve to valve clearance we were comfortable with was .040" based on skunks recommendation of .040" minimum valve to valve clearance. This means that exhaust must be advanced relative to the intake by at least 4 degrees at all times.
- We set our cams to EX: 3.5 deg and IN: -.5 deg. Any adjustments we make on the dyno can not cut into our 4 deg cam separation. for example, we can advance the intake, but exhaust must be advanced with it to maintain 4 deg cam separation. We are also limited on dyno adjustments based on piston to valve clearances discussed below.
Degreeing Cams:
-With the head removed from block
-We Installed the degree wheel and torqued 'Crank Pulley Bolt' to Honda's specification.
-Mount paper or cardboard to the block behind the Degree wheel. This is used to mark TDC, and mark will be used as the reference mark when degreeing the cams.
-Find TDC with the dial indicator. Rotate crank with dial indicator referenced off top of the piston.
-Mark the cardboard where the degree wheel is at TDC.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy...ee%20Wheel.JPG
-#1 rocker assembles locked so vtec is engaged
-Bolt on the head.
-Adjust the valve lash for normal operation. For the pro2's IN:0.007" EX:0.008"(recommended by skunk for opening and closing numbers)
-Adjust the adjustable cam pulleys to EX: 3 IN:0 (or just make sure cams are separated enough to ensure valves don't hit)
-Install the cams. Make sure the reference marks on the pulleys line up with the casting on the head.
-Install timing belt per proper Honda procedures and adjust tension.
-Mount the magnetic base and dial indicator to steel motor mount.
-Adjust the dial indicator so it's referenced off the valve retainer not the valve stem. Make sure the indicator is plunged enough so when the valve is fully open the dial indicator is still touching the valve retainer. With the Pro2's the dial indicator was plunged 0.650"
-We referenced Skunks cam shaft specification sheet for the pro2s.
-We needed to find peek lift and set them to skunks recommendation.
-We rotated the motor while watching the dial indicator.
-We noted the reference mark on the degree wheel when the valve was fully open (dial indicator stopped moving) for both the exhaust and intake. Note: for the pro2s peek is at a range of 6 degrees so take the average from when the needle stops and starts moving (or when the valve reaches peak and then begins to close). Example our exhaust stopped moving at 110 BTDC and started moving at 102 BTDCso the average is 106 BTDC.
-We needed to adjust the cams to hit skunks target values for the pro2 cams. Skunks Pro2 peek values are EX: 106 BTDC IN: 99 ATDC
-For our setup the cam pulleys ended up at EX: 6 deg Advanced IN: 3 deg advanced
This is dependent on block height and head gasket thickness so don't set you cams to these settings without doing previous steps.
Measuring Opening and Closing Specs
-Lash is set to EX: 0.008" IN: 0.007" (per skunk recommendations)
-when the valve opens 0.040" record the the valve on the degree wheel. This is the "Opening" spec.
-when the valve is about 0.040" from closing record the value in the degree wheel. This is the "Closing" spec.
Claying the Piston:
-We did this after degreeing the cams.
-With the head removed from the block place clay pieces on the piston. Coating the top of the piston and valves with a light spray of WD40 will keep the clay from sticking.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/Sy...e%20Piston.JPG
-Install the head
-Use the intended head gasket with intended operation thickness (we used .036" for our build to give us 11.5-11.8 compression ratio)
-Lash was set to 0.000" (to simulate normal operating temperature)
-#1 rocker assembles locked so vtec is engaged
-Install timing belt per proper Honda procedures, and adjust tension.
-Rotate engine twice
-Measure the clay thickness where the valves and head depressed the clay. For the pro2 cams with 11.5/1 compression Weisco pistons at 0.000" lash: Exhaust clearance 0.130" Intake Clearance 0.110" piston to head 0.046".
-For our build we are running a minimum of 0.080" for exhaust, 0.060" for intake, and .040" for piston to head clearance. This is conservative but we are okay with that.
-In order to find the maximum you can retard the exhaust and maximum you can advance the intake on the dyno you need to continue claying the piston at different cam positions to find the limits. Be careful here. keep the cams separated by the amount needed to give good valve to valve clearance. For us, we must keep the valves separated by 4 degrees to ensure they don't come close to hitting while doing the claying. To find the max exhaust retard, we adjusted the cam gears until the clay was .080" thick. This gave us a max retard of -6 degrees. The intake had no maximum value.
-Some people on Honda-Tech have run as close as .030" piston to head clearance. The best thing to do is calculate your piston and rod elongation due to temperature and acceleration. We did this for our set up and got .020" elongation.
#11
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Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
Nice little writeup, thanks for sharing.
In your elongation cals, what are your equations?
Do you use peak or ave acceleration?
In your elongation cals, what are your equations?
Do you use peak or ave acceleration?
#12
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Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
we used peak acceleration which occurs at the top and bottom of the stroke. I can post the equations later, don't have them now... I just modeled the parts and did an FEA on them.
#13
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Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
I just checked VTV on a set of Pro2s in a virgin B16 head and got .018" @ 0E,0I and .037" @ +4E, 0I. Running 0 lash.
#16
Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
hi
now i have finished building my b20vtec full forged..
need help about,
degreeing cams..mine s2 pro1
the intake cam is fine ..opening 24° BTDC and peaklift at 99° ATDC and closing at 50° ABDC. the gear is +2°.
these setting is in the sheet of s2.and i work at 1mm as the s2 sheet.
the exhoust cam is weird..opening is ok at 56° BBDC and closing is ok at 17° ATDC but the peak lift is not ok its at 117° BTDC not in 105° BTDC as the sheet said and the gear is -2°. but i know that it should be +4° or+5°.
but how the opening and closing is typical like the s2 sheet and the peak lift is not and how the gear is -2°.
by the way my gears is lined up at TDC from the first.
and i count the 2 gears its 34 teeth.
can you help in that
now i have finished building my b20vtec full forged..
need help about,
degreeing cams..mine s2 pro1
the intake cam is fine ..opening 24° BTDC and peaklift at 99° ATDC and closing at 50° ABDC. the gear is +2°.
these setting is in the sheet of s2.and i work at 1mm as the s2 sheet.
the exhoust cam is weird..opening is ok at 56° BBDC and closing is ok at 17° ATDC but the peak lift is not ok its at 117° BTDC not in 105° BTDC as the sheet said and the gear is -2°. but i know that it should be +4° or+5°.
but how the opening and closing is typical like the s2 sheet and the peak lift is not and how the gear is -2°.
by the way my gears is lined up at TDC from the first.
and i count the 2 gears its 34 teeth.
can you help in that
#17
Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
Some questions and some dumb ones:
Please check Valve to Valve Clearances first.
1) What is your valve to valve cam separation?
2) What is the "no go" region for valve to valve separation?
3) If you set the peak lift to what skunk says at 105 BTDC what is the opening and closing degs when dial indicator is at .040" off the retainer? For the Pro2's opening, peak, closing was slightly off skunks spec sheet according to my records.
4) I assume you're taking the average peak lift number? What are the deg numbers when the dial stops and starts moving at peak lift?
5) Did you get the cams directly from skunk?
Please check Valve to Valve Clearances first.
1) What is your valve to valve cam separation?
2) What is the "no go" region for valve to valve separation?
3) If you set the peak lift to what skunk says at 105 BTDC what is the opening and closing degs when dial indicator is at .040" off the retainer? For the Pro2's opening, peak, closing was slightly off skunks spec sheet according to my records.
4) I assume you're taking the average peak lift number? What are the deg numbers when the dial stops and starts moving at peak lift?
5) Did you get the cams directly from skunk?
#18
Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
Please see this thread
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...1#post42066127
for continued discussions on egycasper16's exhaust cam issue
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...1#post42066127
for continued discussions on egycasper16's exhaust cam issue
#19
Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
Long time no reply. Just to update this thread regarding Post #10 and that specific motor build.
Peak whp is ~246 @ 7800rpm
Peak tq is ~174 @ 4600rpm
Peak whp is ~246 @ 7800rpm
Peak tq is ~174 @ 4600rpm
#20
Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
Dyno Chart for a fully built LS Vtec
[http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/TT...0/IMG_2329.jpg
Bored to 84.5mm
Resleeved by Golden Eagle with oring grove
CR 11.5:1 wiseco pistons
Running off 91 octane
Skunk2 pro2 cams
Skunk 2 valve springs
Port Polish b16A3 Head
68mm Throttle Body
Port Match skunk 2 manifold to head and Throttle Body
Hondata Intake Gasket
370cc RC injectors
Block girdle
Eagle Rods
AEM cold air intake
TypeR oil pump
P28 with piggy back Hondata s200.
High End Tri Y header
2.75" mandrel bent custom 304 SS Exhaust http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/TE...-58-32_796.jpg on the car http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/TF...-53-27_507.jpg
[http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/TT...0/IMG_2329.jpg
Bored to 84.5mm
Resleeved by Golden Eagle with oring grove
CR 11.5:1 wiseco pistons
Running off 91 octane
Skunk2 pro2 cams
Skunk 2 valve springs
Port Polish b16A3 Head
68mm Throttle Body
Port Match skunk 2 manifold to head and Throttle Body
Hondata Intake Gasket
370cc RC injectors
Block girdle
Eagle Rods
AEM cold air intake
TypeR oil pump
P28 with piggy back Hondata s200.
High End Tri Y header
2.75" mandrel bent custom 304 SS Exhaust http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/TE...-58-32_796.jpg on the car http://lh5.ggpht.com/_6WNP5qcAE-k/TF...-53-27_507.jpg
#23
Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
Also, you can see the HP flat line starting at about 7600rpm.
This could be attributed to flow restriction somewhere, most likely the port work on the head since I didn't get flow bench numbers for the head.
This could be attributed to flow restriction somewhere, most likely the port work on the head since I didn't get flow bench numbers for the head.
#24
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Re: valve to valve clearance skunk 2 pro 2 cams
I run an SMSP header and my head was ported by CCCylinder heads, all different, yet that dip is similar between us. I'll have to look a little closer at some other pro 2 graphs and compare.