Problems with the new TWM setup, and how to solve them
03-04-2006, 10:22 PM
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Problems with the new TWM setup, and how to solve them
Ever since installing the a set of TWM's new 2000 series individual throttle bodies on sheepey's B20/VTEC, we (meaning sheepey, HOOKUPS, and Jason@Rage - I just take pictures lol) have been having a lot of problems. Even when the car finally made good power, it still didn't idle perfectly or make the amount of low- and mid-range power we expected.
Now, between the two of them, Chris (HOOKUPS) and Jason have done quite a few cars with ITBs before, and they've never encountered this problem. Since the only difference between the new TWMs and the older ones is the vacuum/MAP sensor setup, we were guessing that this had to be the problem.
The latest TWMs have a built-in vacuum log running underneath all four intake runners, with the MAP sensor mounted on one end. Chris and Jason theorized that this was causing an erratic/incorrect MAP reading, due to the map sensor being too close to one cylinder and too far from other.
So basically what Jason did was to go back to the method used with the older TWMs. He welded up the end of the vacuum accumulator where the MAP sensor was mounted. Then he drilled and tapped each individual runner, and installed equal-length braided stainless lines with AN fittings. All these lines run to a custom vacuum log mounted on the firewall, and the MAP sensor is mounted on this log (see photos).
We haven't put the car back on the dyno to retune yet, so I don't know if it fixed the low-end power. But I can tell you that Jason demonstrated to me today that even from a cold start, the car idles perfectly (below 1000rpm, no surging or fluctuation). I have a dope video of this, it's uploading to streetfire right now. I will edit this post to include a link to the video as soon as it's uploaded. For now, here are some pics.
EDIT:Here's a link to the vid. Streetfire says it's still being optimized, but hopefully by the time you try to watch it it will be done. So here you go:
http://videos.streetfire.net/v...2.htm
Please excuse the poor quality - I know these aren't up to my normal standards. My 10D was otherwise occupied today (read - one of my coworkers was using it for actual work) so I took these with my outdated Fuji point-n-shoot which I kinda forgot how to use....
Modified by revolt_allmotor at 11:36 PM 3/4/2006
Now, between the two of them, Chris (HOOKUPS) and Jason have done quite a few cars with ITBs before, and they've never encountered this problem. Since the only difference between the new TWMs and the older ones is the vacuum/MAP sensor setup, we were guessing that this had to be the problem.
The latest TWMs have a built-in vacuum log running underneath all four intake runners, with the MAP sensor mounted on one end. Chris and Jason theorized that this was causing an erratic/incorrect MAP reading, due to the map sensor being too close to one cylinder and too far from other.
So basically what Jason did was to go back to the method used with the older TWMs. He welded up the end of the vacuum accumulator where the MAP sensor was mounted. Then he drilled and tapped each individual runner, and installed equal-length braided stainless lines with AN fittings. All these lines run to a custom vacuum log mounted on the firewall, and the MAP sensor is mounted on this log (see photos).
We haven't put the car back on the dyno to retune yet, so I don't know if it fixed the low-end power. But I can tell you that Jason demonstrated to me today that even from a cold start, the car idles perfectly (below 1000rpm, no surging or fluctuation). I have a dope video of this, it's uploading to streetfire right now. I will edit this post to include a link to the video as soon as it's uploaded. For now, here are some pics.
EDIT:Here's a link to the vid. Streetfire says it's still being optimized, but hopefully by the time you try to watch it it will be done. So here you go:
http://videos.streetfire.net/v...2.htm
Please excuse the poor quality - I know these aren't up to my normal standards. My 10D was otherwise occupied today (read - one of my coworkers was using it for actual work) so I took these with my outdated Fuji point-n-shoot which I kinda forgot how to use....
Modified by revolt_allmotor at 11:36 PM 3/4/2006
03-04-2006, 10:59 PM
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Re: Problems with the new TWM setup, and how to solve them (revolt_allmotor)
I have had the same problem and have actually seen the map signal jump all over the place on the the aem while tuning. had to tune the car based on tps signal to get it ready for a race but now it is down waiting for new cams im going to tell the owner to go with the log setup.
03-05-2006, 05:38 AM
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I to have never been able to use just map sensor, i normally just use tps and disconnect the map sensor all together (put the tps out with a voltage cap at 4.7volts to the map out (to ecu) and tune like that)
03-05-2006, 08:46 AM
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Re: (Blind Fashion)
yeah you can use TPS but it seems to run smoother tuned off MAP, no hesitation or stumbling in the low RPM and idles perfect even when cold.
Anyone watch the video?
Anyone watch the video?
03-05-2006, 08:48 AM
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Re: (revolt_allmotor)
um? Sorry, I have never had a problem using TPS only, it always idles just fine cold or hot. Its all in the tuning. and i did it with uberdata. just used the 4.7 volt cap and used the boost tables and street tuned (full throttle would be 12psi of boost) it was interesting but it only took 4 hours to tune.
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03-05-2006, 03:51 PM
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Re: (Blind Fashion)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blind Fashion »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">um? Sorry, I have never had a problem using TPS only, it always idles just fine cold or hot. Its all in the tuning. and i did it with uberdata. just used the 4.7 volt cap and used the boost tables and street tuned (full throttle would be 12psi of boost) it was interesting but it only took 4 hours to tune.</TD></TR></TABLE>
ok well all I said was 'it seems to run smoother tuned off MAP'. no reason to get all offended.
maybe your just way more freakin awesome than us which seems to be the point you're trying to make
the reason I made this post was to inform people that if you are having problems with the new TWM setup (map sensor reading is EXTREMELY erratic) and it still doesn't run perfect even tuned off TPS, then maybe you can try this method....
just trying to share knowledge.
oh and one question: have you tried it both ways? and gotten better power and driveability using your method? because we did try both ways. and this way worked better. so if you haven't tried both you're not really in any position to disagree with me. now if you have, then that's different....
ok well all I said was 'it seems to run smoother tuned off MAP'. no reason to get all offended.
maybe your just way more freakin awesome than us which seems to be the point you're trying to make
the reason I made this post was to inform people that if you are having problems with the new TWM setup (map sensor reading is EXTREMELY erratic) and it still doesn't run perfect even tuned off TPS, then maybe you can try this method....
just trying to share knowledge.
oh and one question: have you tried it both ways? and gotten better power and driveability using your method? because we did try both ways. and this way worked better. so if you haven't tried both you're not really in any position to disagree with me. now if you have, then that's different....
03-05-2006, 04:08 PM
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Re: (revolt_allmotor)
what was the idle speed set at?
looks good though and luckily those map lines will be good to like 2000 psi just in case hehe
video was good
looks good though and luckily those map lines will be good to like 2000 psi just in case hehe
video was good
03-05-2006, 04:35 PM
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Re: (visi0n)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by visi0n »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so did the map signal improve when you ran the vaccume accumulator setup vs the new map on throttle setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes. like 100x cleaner. if you datalogged it before it pretty much looked like /\/\/\/\/\
now its a smooth signal
yes. like 100x cleaner. if you datalogged it before it pretty much looked like /\/\/\/\/\
now its a smooth signal
03-05-2006, 04:35 PM
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Re: (JCushing)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JCushing »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what was the idle speed set at?
looks good though and luckily those map lines will be good to like 2000 psi just in case hehe
video was good</TD></TR></TABLE>
forgot what its set at but it idles at like 800 rpm
looks good though and luckily those map lines will be good to like 2000 psi just in case hehe
video was good</TD></TR></TABLE>
forgot what its set at but it idles at like 800 rpm
03-05-2006, 06:16 PM
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i was wondering why TWM designed their map sensor setup like that.
on the AEM though i get a steady MAP signal on idle using their map config. haven't yet drove the car to see while driving though.
on the AEM though i get a steady MAP signal on idle using their map config. haven't yet drove the car to see while driving though.
03-05-2006, 06:27 PM
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Re: (carboy_honda)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carboy_honda »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I used tps with my itb, the map sensor is only use for barometric correction.Much more responsive using TPS based, this was with Motec. </TD></TR></TABLE>
but doesn't that mean that the car will run worse in different conditions (altitude, barometric pressure) than the ones you tuned it in?
but doesn't that mean that the car will run worse in different conditions (altitude, barometric pressure) than the ones you tuned it in?
03-05-2006, 07:24 PM
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I was not tryinkg to say that i'm better at all. I'm saying it is VERY easy and VERY effecient using the tps only. as long as you have the iat hooked up then its just fine in cold starts.
03-05-2006, 07:29 PM
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Re: (Blind Fashion)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blind Fashion »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was not tryinkg to say that i'm better at all. I'm saying it is VERY easy and VERY effecient using the tps only. as long as you have the iat hooked up then its just fine in cold starts.</TD></TR></TABLE>
ok but again:
'but doesn't that mean that the car will run worse in different conditions (altitude, barometric pressure) than the ones you tuned it in?'
????
ok but again:
'but doesn't that mean that the car will run worse in different conditions (altitude, barometric pressure) than the ones you tuned it in?'
????
03-05-2006, 07:32 PM
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Re: (revolt_allmotor)
The map signal was steady @32.6 Kpa at idle on Alex's car before the vacuum block was install it went up to as high as 103 Kpa.The car just needs to be tune now. 
03-05-2006, 07:40 PM
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Re: (Blind Fashion)
Using TPS to tune , to me is more of like an all out race car . For a daily driver you would use alot more fuel especially on cold start. Remember Manifold Absolute Pressure this determines engine load at WOT or Idle.Honda could have also use a AFM , but by using a MAP in their design it proved to be efficient.
03-05-2006, 08:29 PM
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Re: (Blind Fashion)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blind Fashion »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was not tryinkg to say that i'm better at all. I'm saying it is VERY easy and VERY effecient using the tps only. as long as you have the iat hooked up then its just fine in cold starts.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Its coo we knew what you were saying; he's just kind of sensative
Its coo we knew what you were saying; he's just kind of sensative
03-05-2006, 10:08 PM
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Re: (cptengineer)
(revoltallmotor) Have Alex (sheepy) give me a call at the shop or cell if he need's any help with his ITB's. Highend autosports
Mike
Mike
03-05-2006, 10:44 PM
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Re: (revolt_allmotor)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by revolt_allmotor »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ok but again:
'but doesn't that mean that the car will run worse in different conditions (altitude, barometric pressure) than the ones you tuned it in?'
????</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, because the ecu (stock) has a barometric pressure sensor in it to compinsate. :-D
ok but again:
'but doesn't that mean that the car will run worse in different conditions (altitude, barometric pressure) than the ones you tuned it in?'
????</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, because the ecu (stock) has a barometric pressure sensor in it to compinsate. :-D
03-06-2006, 07:37 AM
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Re: (Blind Fashion)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blind Fashion »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, because the ecu (stock) has a barometric pressure sensor in it to compinsate. :-D</TD></TR></TABLE>
really? inside the ECU? I did not know that.....
really? inside the ECU? I did not know that.....
03-06-2006, 08:22 AM
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Re: (revolt_allmotor)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by revolt_allmotor »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
really? inside the ECU? I did not know that.....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah. it seems to do just fine, getting around 25-27mpg on a richer tune (13 flat partial throttle) If you have any questions about switching it to tps only i can help you. good luck either way..
ps the main problem i had using map sensor is after about 30% throttle it would go to zero vacume because of how efficent the itb's are
really? inside the ECU? I did not know that.....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah. it seems to do just fine, getting around 25-27mpg on a richer tune (13 flat partial throttle) If you have any questions about switching it to tps only i can help you.
good luck either way..ps the main problem i had using map sensor is after about 30% throttle it would go to zero vacume because of how efficent the itb's are