vectorsolid

Are there some dimensions or something I can find that I can compare to this existing B head?

Combustion Contraption

Shaved, like with a Bic? Mach Five? Gillette?

Yes, you can tell if you know how to use a factory service manual and follow directions.

vectorsolid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes, you can tell if you know how to use a factory service manual and follow directions.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If I don't have a factory service manual, what are my options (other than buy a factory service manual)... ...lol...

Is there an online link anywhere?

iheartmyctr

http://www.hondahookup.com you have to be a member and you can download the whole thing

Skunk2Brian

Most Automotive machine shops have books which list the factory thickness of the head and the tolerances to which you can surface the head. If you cut too much the head bolts are no longer capable of generating proper torque because they are too long. At this point the head must be replaced.

This measurement is taken from the surface the valve cover seals to, to the mating surface of the cylinder head. If you go to the machine shop they should be able to tell you what the factory thickness is. You can then measure using a large set of dial calipers to see where you stand. It won't be 100% accurate as there is some variation in head thickness directly from the factory, but it should give you some idea as to how much has been hacked off.

As a small side note, you can use these measurements corner to corner to verify if the head was milled straight or not. If you are short on one side vs the other that would indicate the head was not quite flat when they decked it.

Lubo_25

oem manual ftw

Rocket

Post a pic.

If you don't know by now you are most likely not going to be able to figure it out with the service manual either.

Pretty simple to spot but hard to describe in words that a non-machinist can comprehend without wasting a bunch of time.

d15Beta

here it is on an a6 head, (well atleast how i think it is checked..)



i think the B heads has them too but sumwer there lol

is this what u meant MOTU?

ruffrhyder

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, on my GSR and b16 head there squares. Same squares found on the block also.

Rocket

Yeah but what about 0.010 or 0.020 off.

all-mtr-teg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Master of the Universe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah but what about 0.010 or 0.020 off.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Measure combustion chamber?

Rocket

You can tell by eye the difference between the OE head surfaces versus most machine shop milling or grinding.

Explaining how to do it is hard.

B16 heads the quench pads are from 0.060 to 0.075 deep.

Fkned

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Skunk2Brian &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Most Automotive machine shops have books which list the factory thickness of the head and the tolerances to which you can surface the head. If you cut too much the head bolts are no longer capable of generating proper torque because they are too long. At this point the head must be replaced. </TD></TR></TABLE>Actually no thats not why.
If that was the case you could just grind some of the bolt off at the end so it would fit.
The reason is because when you surface the head your making the deck thinner.If you remove too much from the deck it isn't thick enough to be able to handle the heat/pressure from the cyl,the deck flutters, and it blows the head gasket.

d15Beta

on the pic.. the .035-.038
when u lay the head flat.. the square thingy on the left is flush on the surface, the gap between the surface, to the first marker/dot is the .035-.038

LOL i dunno if this makes sense.. but i thought thats how i could check the sohc ones ,

MOTU is right.. if u have the chance to check out an unmilled fresh head, vs a milled one.. the machined/milled one has an almost unique finish compared to factory...

if none of this makes sense.. i apologize haha
juz sharing what i know (if its wrong.. people will and can correct me.. please do)

vectorsolid

Here are some pics of the head. I bought it used off these forums. Keep your comments about how you might think it needs a rebuild, or the number 3 hole looks rich. That's not what we're looking at here.

Are we talking about the areas I've circled??









Modified by vectorsolid at 8:34 PM 7/7/2008


Modified by vectorsolid at 12:56 AM 7/8/2008

d15Beta

that looks to be shaved alot!

notice the quench area of the chamber (or whatever its called)

MOTU mentioned it is between .060 to .075" deep

thats atleast 1.5mm deep (supposed to be)

urs isnt ?

vectorsolid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by d15Beta &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that looks to be shaved alot!

notice the quench area of the chamber (or whatever its called)

MOTU mentioned it is between .060 to .075" deep

thats atleast 1.5mm deep (supposed to be)

urs isnt ? </TD></TR></TABLE>

As near as I can tell, the quench is in that range. I don't think it's been shaved. Maybe a scuff or two to re-surface for a build. But not intentionally taken down any kind of distance.

If you look at those squares on the head (in the red circles), they are not yet flush with the rest of the machined surface. and are about .050-.060" from the bottom of the groove around the square. I don't have the right tool to measure this as accurately as need be, but I'm close enough for a good guess. I'm thinking it's not shaved.

We'll get this figured out. We're closer than ever.

Combustion Contraption

That head looks like it has had foreign material in at least 2 of the cylinders.

ruffrhyder

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vectorsolid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Are we talking about the areas I've circled??

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup, and like CC mentioned, did you find any foreign material in the combustion chamber or on the pistons when you pulled the head off?

vectorsolid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That head looks like it has had foreign material in at least 2 of the cylinders.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Which is why I said this in my post "... Keep your comments about how you might think it needs a rebuild, or the number 3 hole looks rich. That's not what we're looking at here..."

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ruffrhyder &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
did you find any foreign material in the combustion chamber or on the pistons when you pulled the head off?</TD></TR></TABLE>

From earlier in the thread, "...I bought it used off these forums..."


I appreciate that, very likely, you were just looking out for me. I've altered the images, so you can't see the valves. I really want to get a handle on the shaved head issue.

Head is fine, just looks odd in the pics. Which I mentioned to ignore the head and concentrate on the circled areas.

SO, Back to discussing head shaving and correctly observing and measuring it.


Modified by vectorsolid at 12:53 AM 7/8/2008


Modified by vectorsolid at 12:57 AM 7/8/2008

vectorsolid

Anybody know what the dimensions for the circled areas are in the original image?

I believe on this head, Dimension B is about .075






Modified by vectorsolid at 1:01 AM 7/8/2008

Fkned

We think you have more to worry about then the head thickness,but you don't want to discuss that.
SO since you already feel that the head isn't shaved much and we cant tell you the chamber depth by pics what else do you want to find out here?

d15Beta

you can check that with a caliper.. very crude? but lol i guess it can give u an idea..

as long as the caliper has the poking thingy for depth measurement..

ive seen alot of Bheads shaved and unshaved, from the pic bfor u edited out the chambers.. the quench is alot deeper than that.. so? i dunno..

plus u said u bought this used? why not ask the seller? if our word isnt good for it? LOL

vectorsolid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by d15Beta &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ive seen alot of Bheads shaved and unshaved, from the pic bfor u edited out the chambers.. the quench is alot deeper than that.. so? i dunno..
</TD></TR></TABLE>

How much is "deeper"? On the .gif image, which dimension are you referring to?


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by d15Beta &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
plus u said u bought this used? why not ask the seller? if our word isnt good for it? LOL</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did, he had not. But he was not the first owner... hence the need to measure and quantify.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Fkned &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We think you have more to worry about then the head thickness,but you don't want to discuss that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

And as I mentioned, it's very thoughtful of a few of you go the extra mile and be concerned for me. I appreciate that. I agree the photo looked odd, so I looked again (just before altering the images), nothing out of the ordinary, just crazy lighting and various debris from the shipping process making things look unusual. That all gets cleaned up, no problemo.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Fkned &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
SO since you already feel that the head isn't shaved much and we cant tell you the chamber depth by pics what else do you want to find out here?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just how those squares are measured on the B-series. We have pic earlier on in this thread where someone loosely explains the D-series.

I don't believe this is simply an "eyeball" thing, and it should be measured and accounted for. Would you eyeball a cylinder bore and order rings? It's carefully measured and calculated.

I feel that chamber depth can absolutely be quantified without looking in the chamber by those little squares. ASSUMING, that's what they are for. And assuming that the head has been machined square. That's two uses of the word assuming, and yes I understand what it means to assume. That's why I don't want to assume, and learn the correct way to measure this.

d15Beta

was talkin bout the depth of "B" in ur diagram

and i figure it was shaved alot.. since i based the pic, of the quench where u could see the valves, knowing the dia. of those valves and how they look dimension wise physically, it didnt look that deep

anyways.. thats just what i think LOL