2k.civic.si

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hondata &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You are incorrect.

If you very carefully read http://www.hondata.com/s300.html you will learn a couple of things.

The S300 has 2 Mb of onboard memory for up to an hour of datalogging
The S300 has PWM boost control by gear</TD></TR></TABLE>

they are working on that for crome
and if thats all the s300 has over crome
but this was a s100 vs crome anyway...


Modified by 2k.civic.si at 8:45 PM 11/10/2006

1CamSol

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mtber &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Use what your tuner wants to use </TD></TR></TABLE>

lol why?

btw Hondata s300 &gt; crome anyday.

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2CamKilla &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

lol why?

btw Hondata s300 &gt; crome anyday.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Because both unit can be tuned to the same end product, if the tuner knows how to use the software. If the only tuner you go to tunes crome and hasn't ever touched hondata, your best bet is to go with crome.

1CamSol

sounds good ^^

b19coupe

I tune both and still like Hondata much better. I have a Crome tuning ECU that now gives me the ability to datalog and tune in real time-thanks to Artie-but getting everything to work properly required a great deal of work. I had to play with drivers, port settings, and finally had to get a PCMCIA USB card to enable my laptop to connect to the Ostrich emulator reliably.
The Hondata S300 connects to every laptop that I have ever owned without a hiccup. The same goes for the S200 as far as data-logging, but I have had the occasional issue with real time programming with the Romulator.
A/F is much more consistent with Hondata too. The variance with Crome is not extreme, a couple of tenths here and there from run to run, but there is a difference.
Crome is good, Hondata is better-IMO.

WHITFIELD-TUNED

ok todd good points... but dollar for dollar ???

b19coupe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WHITFIELD-TUNED &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok Todd good points... but dollar for dollar ??? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hondata S300-$595 complete with everything you need to tune.
(High and low speed 24 x 20 ignition and fuel tables for correct VTEC tuning
Injector size fuel trim
Fuel trim for starting, throttle tip in and individual cylinder trim
Rev limiter with fuel cut or fuel and ignition cut
Launch control with anti-lag
Full throttle shift
Adjustable VTEC window with load and throttle control
Secondary intake runner control
Adjustable idle speed
MAP sensor type and calibration
Adjustable boost cut with hot and cold settings
Shift light
Closed loop control
Air temperature compensation
Water temperature compensation
Fuel and ignition correction based on gear
A/C shutoff conditions
Closed loop
Three general purpose outputs for nitrous control, quad boost control or similar
On board datalogging trigger conditions
SManager can be updated within the software as long as you have an internet connection-easy to check and update regularly.
Built in calibrations for common engine combinations
Built in datalogging to a laptop
On board datalogging memory (2 MB memory, 20-60 minutes datalogging)
Adjustment for different sized injectors, with overall fuel trim.
Configurable for any MAP sensor (to at 5 Bar and above)
TPS based table lookup for ITBs
Engine protection from over boost.
Expanded fuel and ignition tables, both in rpm and load, to 60 lbs boost and 11,000 rpm (these are not the upper limits)
Launch control with anti-lag
Full throttle shift
Three multi purpose outputs for nitrous control or similar
Lambda tracing (with a wideband o2 sensor)
PWM output for boost control
Dual tables for high/low octane calibrations etc.
Two analog inputs for wideband, EGTs etc.)
And it's plug-and-play!


Crome-free.
All of the things I needed to make Crome datalog and program in real time-Ostrich, Hulog, cables, etc-$360.00.
Crome Pro License-$149
(I won't count the hours I spent getting it to work-with Artie's and Craig's help )
Total-$509.


If a customer just wants to run Crome, all they need is a chipped ECU. Much cheaper, I grant you. We, the tuners, have to make all of the expenditures to get all of the features that make Crome almost comparable to an S300.
The S100 is $195. Crome is free. For reliability, ease of use, and (in my humble opinion) a better software package, I still choose Hondata

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

I'm not gonna lie. Crome gives me **** all the time, and I do nothing different between cars. I am definitley looking forward to tuning more with neptune and hondata to be honest.

Honda Bull

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not gonna lie. Crome gives me **** all the time, and I do nothing different between cars. I am definitley looking forward to tuning more with neptune and hondata to be honest.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaa? For real, John? How come you never bitch about it more then? You can't get Neptune can you?

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda Bull &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaa? For real, John? How come you never bitch about it more then? You can't get Neptune can you? </TD></TR></TABLE>

RTP is out. Get it in tomorrow.

I always bitch about it.

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I tune both and still like Hondata much better. I have a Crome tuning ECU that now gives me the ability to datalog and tune in real time-thanks to Artie-but getting everything to work properly required a great deal of work. I had to play with drivers, port settings, and finally had to get a PCMCIA USB card to enable my laptop to connect to the Ostrich emulator reliably.
The Hondata S300 connects to every laptop that I have ever owned without a hiccup. The same goes for the S200 as far as data-logging, but I have had the occasional issue with real time programming with the Romulator.
A/F is much more consistent with Hondata too. The variance with Crome is not extreme, a couple of tenths here and there from run to run, but there is a difference.
Crome is good, Hondata is better-IMO.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What do you mean by the variance and a couple of tenths difference? Are you saying the car is running faster using hondata? Is this because of the antilag mostly or what? You should be able to make the same exact power on both programs.

b19coupe

A couple of tenths variance in A/F on the dyno. Same program with no changes. Hondata is more consistent. The power on the same car on the same day on the same dyno is the same with Hondata or Crome. Capice?

WHITFIELD-TUNED

man ya gotta love Todd.. great tuner and great guy... but for arguements sake here goes lol
This is for a customer of course not a tuner
<FONT COLOR="blue">CROME</FONT>= socketed ecu and a tune (approx $225.00)
(High and low speed 24 x 20 ignition and fuel tables for correct VTEC tuning
Injector size fuel trim
Fuel trim for starting, throttle tip in and individual cylinder trim
Rev limiter with fuel cut
Launch control without having to press a button
Full throttle shift
Adjustable VTEC window with load and throttle control
Secondary intake runner control
Adjustable idle speed
MAP sensor type and calibration
Adjustable boost cut
Shift light
Closed loop control
Air temperature compensation
Water temperature compensation
Fuel and ignition correction based on gear
A/C shutoff conditions
Closed loop
out put for NOS or dual boost controller
crome can be updated within the software as long as you have an internet connection-easy to check and update regularly.
Built in calibrations for common engine combinations
Built in data-logging to a laptop
Adjustment for different sized injectors, with overall fuel trim.
Configurable for any MAP sensor (to at 5 Bar and above)
TPS based table lookup for ITBs
Engine protection from over boost.
Expanded fuel and ignition tables, both in rpm and load, to 60 lbs boost and 11,000 rpm (these are not the upper limits)
Launch control
Full throttle shift
Lambda tracing (with a wide-band o2 sensor)
Dual tables for high/low octane calibrations etc.
Two analog inputs for wide-band, EGTs etc.)
autotuning and autoadjustments
And it's plug-and-play!

here is the breakdown in approx of course

s300= $595.00 plus ecu and install plus tune approx =$920.00
crome= free plus ecu plus tune approx=$325.00
yes to do it the way Todd,Artie, and myself do it = approx $530 (however, if you have this setup ...<FONT COLOR="red">YOU CAN TUNE OTHER CARS WITH IT AND SIMPLY BURN A CHIP..AND MAKE MONEY</FONT> with the s300 you cannot unless the car you are trying to tune already has hondata.

<FONT COLOR="blue"> i am in no way degrading hondata... it is a GREAT system that is capable of almost anything, however dollar for dollar coming from a customers point of view crome is literally 1/3 of the price of hondata and as other tuners will agree...will make the same exact power on the same car/dyno/day.</FONT>
its no secret that i also enjoy tuning the s300


this arguement is never going to die hahaha
USE WHAT YOUR TUNER RECC. PERIOD
a rom editor is a rom editor is a rom editor x infinity

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A couple of tenths variance in A/F on the dyno. Same program with no changes. Hondata is more consistent. The power on the same car on the same day on the same dyno is the same with Hondata or Crome. Capice?</TD></TR></TABLE>
alright yea i gotcha. I was real confused with what you were talking about with the couple tenths thing . Really as long as you setup all the corrections correctly i dont see where this would be a problem though. Thats the only reason i'd see where it would be changing. Maybe the hondata corrections tables are just setup a little more ideal for most larger injectors in the first place or something.

2k.civic.si

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
alright yea i gotcha. I was real confused with what you were talking about with the couple tenths thing . Really as long as you setup all the corrections correctly i dont see where this would be a problem though. Thats the only reason i'd see where it would be changing. Maybe the hondata corrections tables are just setup a little more ideal for most larger injectors in the first place or something. </TD></TR></TABLE>

this is why i have a basemap with my own corrections tables
crome is more of a DIY system...cheaper for me the tuner...and the customer...although i will tune anything and can get the same results with any system...the system is only as good as the tuner using it...as for a/f being off from run to run...i have many runs where i was playing with timing and the a/f curve overlayed every run on the dynojet using crome

projectef

is crome a chip? or a hole ecu? im still learnin on wat should i use on my car when i tune it. where can i get crome?

b19coupe

Crome is romediting software-you edit the rom and program the chip with it. The chip goes inside the ECU.

WHITFIELD-TUNED

off the subject todd you gonna make it out to the toy drive tomorrow?

0xenocron

Hondata is always going to cost the customer more than any other Honda ROM Editing software out there...they are a commercial company. To the customer of a tuner, this plays absolutely no role what so ever. You cant get tuned on Hondata by a dealer and if something goes wrong with the tune, call up Hondata and bitch. To the tuner, it is good to have a company to be a dealer for...you make money off of the product AND the tune, plus you have commercial support (well...). Hondata carries a certain reputation and brand image as well in the industry.

CROME was made for DIYers and it has been turned into something else by businesses that tune. Getting your car tuned on Crome will always be cheaper because there is no cost of the system (or at least there shouldn't be, that would actually be illegal) only the tuning service and possibly the only required piece of hardware (chipped ECU).

At this point, if your tuner actually knows how to tune with each system to its fullest potential identically, you will come out with identical running motors. There is nothing in Hondata that will allow you to extract more HP out of a motor than can be possibly extracted with Crome...a motor only has so much potential. But peak numbers arent always the name of the game. Sometimes it is driveability or yes boost control (Hondata has this advantage).

The typical 1st time Honda customer doesn't have a setup that details they NEED certain features of Hondata that are not in Crome...so if the setup calls for these special features (like PWM boost control), go Hondata, if not why push the customer into a solution they don't need when they can save money with a Crome tune? Because they make money on the hardware as a dealer...pure and simple, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Just understand (as a consumer) that at this point with the developments made in this field (And thus the reason Honda popularity has taken off like they have in the past 6 years) that NO ONE has special code thats better than anyone else's...so spend your hard earned money on a TUNER that worth his/her salt...and dont necessarily buy into the name of the program that edits the HONDA CODE that runs inside of your ECU.

Or, just learn for yourself that this tuning isnt all that hard if you have a few brain cells...and that Honda motors are actually pretty relentless and hard to pop if you do the proper research and understand the fundamentals of how it all works together.

WHITFIELD-TUNED

Chris harris (xenocron) knows his sh#t. Listen to him and no people cannot or should not charge for CROME as a product just the actual tuning and of course possibly the ecu socketing and the actual sst512 or at29c256 epprom. ... That being said what actual "product" are you getting with hondata s100 or s200? What a datalogging blue box ?? (You can purchase the same exact thing from http://www.xenocron.com for I think $30.00, run crome and you are set. And as for s300 you get lve tunability ok so now get an emulator (175.00 or so) run crome and you are good just my opinion and as a tuner of many different rom editors and stand alones I always recc the best setup for the dollar to my customers.. (I.e gsr with IHE doesnot need a motec M4 system!!! Lol)

0mtber

iTrader: (2)

A little off topic, but I love how I have had several customers come to me with questions about crome vs hondata stating that they spoke to hondata dealers which told them crome does not have the capability to use open/closed loop which does not allow you to get good gas milage....

The fact is crome does have the capability to use open/closed loop however o2 feedback is overrated. If a car is properly tuned o2 feedback shouldn't have to be used

WHITFIELD-TUNED

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mtber &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A little off topic, but I love how I have had several customers come to me with questions about crome vs hondata stating that they spoke to hondata dealers which told them crome does not have the capability to use open/closed loop which does not allow you to get good gas milage....

The fact is crome does have the capability to use open/closed loop however o2 feedback is overrated. If a car is properly tuned o2 feedback shouldn't have to be used
</TD></TR></TABLE> VERY VERY VERY TRUE and i have heard the same exact BS from customers ... i think that CERTAIN undisclosed shops get a direct kickback from selling hondatas "product" and that is why they are so defensive and threatened by CROME. just a thought though

0mtber

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WHITFIELD-TUNED &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> VERY VERY VERY TRUE and i have heard the same exact BS from customers ... i think that CERTAIN undisclosed shops get a direct kickback from selling hondatas "product" and that is why they are so defensive and threatened by CROME. just a thought though

</TD></TR></TABLE>

All hondata dealers make profit on every single hondata unit they sell on top of the tuning fees they charge.

I am not anti hondata in any way. I just don't like people spreading false facts about the alternate systems on the market.

b16a4

suscribed

2k.civic.si

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mtber &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

All hondata dealers make profit on every single hondata unit they sell on top of the tuning fees they charge.

I am not anti hondata in any way. I just don't like people spreading false facts about the alternate systems on the market.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ill sell and tune whatever the customer wants...if they want hondata then hondata they get...they want to save some money and make the same #'s go crome...but on our own drag cars we use speed pro and motec...but i would bet any amount of $ i can make the same #'s on the dyno with crome over any other system out there...