eDaniel

Hey guys,

We are a group of Honda enthusiasts from Bulgaria. We are building Honda engines for years. We have built a number of drag racing engines. The results from the Skunk2 Pro 2 camshafts are really impressive, however we have a persistent issue we need your help with.

The problem is that we see premature wear on the rocker arms and the camshafts. After 300-400 miles, we disassemble the engine to examine the parts for wear. We consistently observe an obvious wear on the rocker arms and some wear on the camshafts (vtec lobes/rocker arms).

We noticed that there are different threads that mention the same problem. Here is an example.

We have tried the best oils available on our market like Motul Le Mans, Eneos Sustina, Bardahl and Petronas all with the same problem. Needless to say, we used Skunk2 valve springs and retainers, but have also tried Supertech stuff to the same effect.

The new ultra series camshafts seem very promising and we'd really like to try the new stuff in our drag builds but we need to find a solution for this problem.

We tried to contact Skunk2 tech support but unfortunately there is no reply for two months.

Any ideas or suggestions are most welcome!

wunfstgsr

What kind of lost motion assemblys are you using?

This would usually be caused by the valve lash not set to spec and or type of oil used.

Any pics?

Runnerdown

This is pretty common on H and B series. It's not valve lash settings causing it. It's just the relationship of the sliding friction of the rocker and cam. Skunk will likely blame the oil used or the available pressure and flow etc.

I have also experienced the same thing and struggled to define the exact problem for many years. Its not a simple issue, I have seen even stock cams and rockers gall one another. Also, tried various oil, lash settings, valve springs, LMA's. The exhaust side tends to get damage first, likely from heat traveling up the valve stem. It's quite rare to see this on roller rockers...

PSI GUY

iTrader: (2)

I as well started having this issue, seems like the higher lift cams are to blame as well as high valve spring pressure. Roller camshafts will solve your issue, but you also have to buy new rockers as well. Ferrea roller rockers are around $1000 and then you have to run a roller camshaft which is usually quite a bit more than a standard camshaft. I ran the highest zinc content oil, as well as additives, new oil pump, plugged squirters, coil lmas, etc with no difference. Mine was instant, after a full pulls on the dyno I had to remove things after some issues and found the wear. I had also locked the vtec on and had the same issue so it's not an lma issue as some say.

Runnerdown

I had a mint jdm H22 in for a mild turbo setup, and put in supertech springs and retainers only. Bone stock everything else, and ran torco oil in it. End of the summer I popped the valve cover off and there was scoring on the cams and rockers, not extreme but enough to bother me. The inside of the rocker towards the shaft naturally wears first. Even a little ridge or wear here sets off the downward spiral of failure. Pretty disappointing, especially seeing as how finding worthy replacements over the years has gotten more difficult.

dellas

We have had the same issue for years, engine builder almost gave up on the B/H series until we started using ZDDPlus oil additive, since then no issues in street, drag or circuit builds.

We have also found that an oil designed for hotrod motors will suffice also.

The issue is mainly the lack of sufficient zinc in the oils today because of emission control.

whitesihatch

Others will laugh, but I thoroughly second this post.

With high lift camshafts for the rocker arm motors, b/h I have personally found running a zddp additive (anti wear) as well as a polymer based viscosity enhancer ( to help with multi weight oils/ enhances temp durability) with good quality full synthetic oil. By good quality I mean something consistent with a good cleanliness code and must be at least a group 3 or group 4 synthetic base stock: i.e Hydrotex, Torco, Brad Penn, etc. Not off the shelf modern day emission dirty garbage oil, it doesnt meet the spec for our stock motors, let alone a high performance motor.

I personally have found that using no less than 2200 ppm zinc/phosphorous was alot of cheap insurance. i lost a motor with Toda c's a few years back. And have been on the hunt to learn as to why. Had I have known what I know now then, odds are itd still be in a running car.

The concept of good motor oil, gear oil is something I have noticed the import especially Honda community is unfamiliar with, we are way below the curve as a whole.

850Fabrication

There have been all types of claims but i really do think it comes down to oil companies becoming more environmentally friendly which has caused a drop in lubrication properties for specific valvetrain configurations.
It's been a long time but I read an fsae article on zddp which had documentation of friction measured in voltage and there was a significant drop in voltage with the addition of zinc phosphate. But with emissions regulations getting stiffer, they are disappearing. You couldn't pay me to run mobil1 in a sub 2000ish honda nowadays.

Runnerdown

I have 2 oils that so far seem to be doing ~ok~with cams. Motul 300v, and Valvoline VR-1. Torco, Amsoil, Mobil 1, some various motorcycle oils and those zddp additive bottles have not shown positive results for me so far.

The science and tribology behind this scenario is seemingly too complex to bite on endless marketing claims and questionable online reviews. I think in our world you unfortunately have to try different things until something works.

martin88

Hi guys. So what do you think is best for this problem? Sinxe i am building a 86x92 bseries and planning to use a pro3 camshaft, with skink losemotion.

whitesihatch

I forgot to add motul, and amsoil which is a group 4 synthetic base stock, good stuff.

However the only way to know what a specific oil is doing for a specific setup is to do oil analysis. Everything else is hear say or speculation.

PSI GUY

iTrader: (2)

I ran the amsoil Z-rod oil and the additive, didn't seem to slow it down at all.

martin88

So whats a best of good oils? Mutol 300v?

Runnerdown

I agree oil analysis is the only way to determine, but you never hear of any racers doing this.

bspeed

Generic Oil Plumbing Kit

You can make your own, an external line on a high rpm big cam engine "should" help with wear by increasing the oil volume. Many others on this board have used similar set-ups with good success.

moyospeed

This thread is depressing lol. So I'm going to take it that there is no way to avoid this problem. Would a milder cam offset this?

PyroProblem

I think this is a step in the right direction. Good oil and a little more volume is a good thing IMO.
I think enlarging the head oil control orifice hole would do the same thing. I plan on stepping up mine a little bit (10-20%). I don't think it will hurt anything since the camshaft journal clearances aren't changing.

Has anyone ever used any products by Liqui-Moly?

I've tried a lot of snake oils in my life and this is about the only one that I actually noticed a difference (in oil consumption) and did what it advertised. From what I understand, its basically "moly" in a can. Add it to your oil, it coats everything at a microscopic level with molybdenum and helps reduce friction (wear). On my fathers 190k miles Isuzu Rodeo (notorious for oil consumption), it pretty much eliminated oil top offs (going on 4 months now). On my mothers 294k mile Park avenue, oil consumption has also been reduced (been about 2 months). On my Trailblazer SS, I used to have to top off the oil every other fillup or so on gas ( 1/3 quart every 600 miles). Since my last oil change about 1000 miles ago and several fill ups, the oil level has not changed at all. I monitor my oil levels like a hawk..These examples are of stock vehicles, but it very well could help on our engines as well..
The reviews on amazon are also very positive. I know oil consumption and rocker arm wear are different issues, but if you understand how the molybdenum "sets in" to the engine internals, it makes sense how it might help.
LIQUI MOLY - Motor Oils, Additives, Car Care - Products - MoS2 Anti-Friction Engine Treatment

PyroProblem

They claim 30% reduction in engine friction and wear on their FAQ page.

martin88

How does this work? In now im using a b18 enging and would want to have this oil plumbing kit? So ill use a sandwichplate and where will i connect the hose after the sandwich plate?


To up the oil volume how about using a high volumse oil pump?

PyroProblem

Heres an older thread I found here.
https://honda-tech.com/all-motor-nat...-b18c-2042907/

Larry from Endyn (very smart man IMO) had a good write up of it several years ago, but I cant find it.

ESP.net

Running an added External Line like a LS/Vtec has been done before in the H22. Was turbo and stock cams so can't chime in on how well worked or needed...

I would think it may help but may take a little bit of oil pressure away?

I've seen a lot of threads over the years with the H and higher lift cams and Rocker Wear... Zinc additive is what helps the rocker wear. Most seem to switch to Royal Purple and helps issue a lot. Royal Purple has the Zinc additive. It has been what I have been using for close to a decade on these H motors...

I also seen were the older OBD1 LMA's have contributed to the rocker wear. Switching to a OBD2 type will help the issue as well....

eDaniel

Spring-type LMA's in 90% of the cases.
I will try to find some photos on my harddrive.

eDaniel

The oil plumbing kit seems promising. Maybe combining that kit with a high zddp oil and Bardahl additive will reduce the wear a bit. It is shame that I don't have enough before/after photos to prove what happens, but I also noticed that a quick search in Google shows that we are not alone in our misery
Do you think it is worth to send two samples to Blackstone for a before/after analysis of the mix of motor oil and additive?

martin88

Where can we buy that oil plumbing kit?

PyroProblem

The Old One - Energy Dynamics