raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

what i learned during my build and sharing so you dont make same mistakes hopefully


1 DONT EVER even for a second trust a guy selling parts on craigslist especially if they are cheaper than other listed parts.
if its cheaper than the rest chances are its busted and the guy just looking for another idiot to sell it to.
CHECK EVERYTHING even if the guy swears its all strait and calls you homie.try to meet people at their house not at the mall so you know where they live.
DO NOT MEET AFTER DARK, you cannot see **** chances are you gonna miss alot of stuff even if you bring a flash light.
and do a bit of research on what are the common problems with the part you buying and look for them.
CHECK FOR: stripped bolts and stripped threads, cracks, deep surface scratches on gasket surfaces.rotate engine with spark plugs in to make sure it has compression.
head: worn cam journals, scuffed cams,burnt valves, bent valves, worn out valve seats and valve guides, wobbly valves, damage from foreign objects inside the head,
block: worn out piston rings, cracked/scuffed/rusty cylinder walls, signs of overheating black colored around main and rod bearings, clogged oil pickup, signs of oil/coolant mixing, build up of stop leak in coolant lines.

tranny: case is not cracked, signs of impact on lower part of tranny case, stripped/ cracked engine mount holes, metal shavings in gear oil, excessive play in differential wen i gear.
engine harness: go through the whole harness and check for broken wires and butt connectors covered by loom and tape
ecu: do a sniff test, burnt electronics smell stays for a while, if smell funky open p and check for burnt parts or discoloration on the board



2 keep all the information organized, and make sure you save the information of the guy that sold you the part just in case.
try to gather as much info about seller as you can( take a picture of his car as he is pulling up with his licence plate visible)
unfortunately i got a new phone and could not transfer all my saved messages and lost the numbers of the people i bought stuff from.

3 try to buy complete parts,(block,head,IM etc) it will cost you about same+ wasted time, when you think you getting a good deal on some part and its missing few things here and there check how much they cost, and how hord are they to find.
even nuts and bolts add up to few 100 dollars if you have to buy alot of them from honda,
so its easier to buy a complete engine and then sell the parts you dont need to make up for that money rather than running around town lookin for missing pieces.

4DOUBLE/TRIPLE check everything, doesnt take that long to do.
if i didnt take my time and go through every lil detail ( double check your machinist' work,resurface the flywheel while its at the machine shop,bent valves,stripped bolts, cracks in the block/head casting, sleeves,warped head//block clearances,correct torque on ALL the bolts.

5 CLEAN the parts really well. or better yet, take the head and the block and have it hot tanked along with the rest of the parts to get everythig out.
if the block or head is dirty on the outside it will get inside and on contact surfaces.

6 start saving up for tuning session right away so by the time its done you have some cash to get it tuned properly.



version 2.0
block:
RS machines PR3 pistons 81.5(ebay guy)
81.5mm bore
stock gsr crank/rods with arp rod bolts, oem bearings
new ITR oil/water pump
ballanced cank/pistons/rods etc


head:
.022 headgasket matched cylinder bore
gsr head resurfaced .03? taken off
slightly cleaned up by previous owner
supertech nitride coated valves(BlueR HT)
70 lbs supertech springs/retainers
buddy club 3+ cams
buddy club cam gears
performer X manifold +P2R thermal gasket
70mm throttle body thermal gasket
TB/IM/ portmatched to head
RDX injectors 410cc from (xenocron)
aem fuel rail/fpr
hytech replica 100 dollar header heatwrapped (ebay)
2.5 inch vsr pipe with hiflow cat,18 inch resonator and vibrant muffler
gates timing belt(yoparts)


3 inch to 3.5 intake with v stack and filter

zr7iridium heat ratedspark plugs, OEM wires/distributor.(autopartsway)

PS but no AC

gsr tranny

205/50/16 tires







-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
version 1.9
block:
RS machines PR3 pistons 81.5(ebay guy)
81.5mm bore
stock gsr crank/rods with arp rod bolts, oem bearings
new ITR oil/water pump
ballanced cank/pistons/rods etc


head:
.022 headgasket matched cylinder bore
gsr head resurfaced .03? taken off
slightly cleaned up by previous owner
supertech nitride coated valves(BlueR HT)
70 lbs supertech springs/retainers
buddy club 3+ cams
buddy club cam gears
skunk2 pro intake manifold cleaned up casting as well(Clist)
omni power 68mm throttle body(phearable.net)
TB/IM/ portmatched to head
RDX injectors 410cc from (xenocron)
aem fuel rail/fpr
hytech replica 100 dollar header (ebay)
2.25 exhaust with ITR axleback
gates timing belt(yoparts)


no name short ram intake pipe( possibly early ebay productions for b16)
zr7? heat ratedspark plugs, OEM wires/distributor.(autopartsway)

PS but no AC

gsr tranny


the guy that sold me the head claimed it was ok to use, but after measuring the V2V clearances it seems like something is not right with the valves or valve guides.

turned out to be bent valves.


AGAIN!!! for people reading tis post if you missed it. PLEASE! please calculate total cost before you start buying all them expensive parts and getting excited.
i was very excited when i started to get all those packages lol it was like damn fast and furious movie scene(except they were used and not shiny for the most part)
at this moment i relize i have over estimated my budget by much, and thats why the progress is much slower than i expected, plus few unexpected things had to be replaced as well.

heres what i though about at first:
cams,cam gears, IM,TB,header,injectors,clutch kit,pistons,arp rod/main bolts,headgasket,oil pump, water pump,spring type LMA,machine shop labor.


heres what i didnt think about:
main/rod bearings, timing belt, alternator belt,PS belt,thermostat, head gasket KIT, bottom end KIT, fan switch,arp headstuds,fuel rail acessories(injector seals etc),ecu chipping(or hondata/neptune),flywheel resurface,rotating assembly ballance,valve cover,new valves,cam degree kit, micrometers,gauges, torque wrenches, other tools that are needed,time it takes to find te rest of missing lil parts here and there 10 dollars here 40 dollars there etc adds up to a good amount.
then comes the tune cost as well and then maintenance, and a lil extra just in case something else goes wrong when engine is in the car.

so to be honest if i knew what is involved in an engine build( should have red many other build threads more carefully) i would have probably had it in my car by now and wouldnt be broke
and now im forced to cut a few corners here and there instead of buying brand new parts and having MUCH LESS headaches from finding out that part is damaged...



-------------------------------------

heres what i WAS im planning before i started reading and asking questions

81.5 gsr bottom with RS machines usdm type-r pistons( cant find any PR3 pistons from RS machines)
pistons will be ceramic coated if i can find someone to do it FAIL

gsr head with supertech springs/retainers stock valves nev valve seals
aiming at around 11.5-12.2 CR hed is gonna be resurfaced to remove few scratches
so i will get the headgasket later
head is slightly ported
skunk 2 pro IM that will be portmatched to head/TB as well
68mm omnipower TB
dc sports 4-2-1 header(for now dont have any better ones)
will get a 4-1 header in the future
-----------------------------------
i am stuck between 3 cam choices right now, dont have enough knowledge to pick the best for this setup

ENDYN bumpstix 550$ great guys at endyn. helped me out very much with the gsr IM.
skunk2 stage2 or pro1 550-600$
buddy club stage IV with cam gears and springs/retainers 720$ as a package
---------------------------------------
the questions are i have
should i expect any clearance issues with this setup?
how much power can i expect realistically from this(i was aiming at 200-210) and around 135-140 TQ
which cams would give me best all around performance? typical question i found out later.

this is a daily driver car that i dont want to get PEAK POWER NUMBER
i want to get a nice flat curve with no "surprise buttsex" power increase at 6000 RPM
i dont care about feeling or hearing my VTEC KICK IN.
just plain and simple power all the way across as smooth as possible...


big thanks to people that helped me through this

00Red_SiR <<>> for all the correct info and support
BlueR <<>> for providing me with parts and great deals
ALLMOTOR <<>> also for info and support and soon custom cams
and others as well

00Red_SiR

If you're aiming for that compression ratio, you're going to want JDM ITR pistons. Even then you'd have to mill at least .020" off the head and probably run a 2-layer headgasket to be in the range you want. Also, what exactly is a "slightly ported head"?

If you want to make over 200whp, you'll need a far better header and exhaust than a DC or 4-1 header. You'll need to look at something like Hytech, SSR, SMSP, type of headers and at least a 2.5" exhaust.

With the exception of the Pro series cams, all the other you list are older technology. They still work well but if you want power before VTEC as well as after, you'll need to look at a set of cams that run larger than stock primaries like the pro series cams and maybe the Buddy Club 4's. All the cams have the ability to reach the peak numbers you want, just not the low end or midrange.

Depends what cams you ultimately use and the cam gear settings, the amount your head is milled or block is decked, the type of pistons you ultimately use.

This is why it's difficult to make this power reliably out of a 1.8L because you really have to know what you're doing, know how to measure and check clearances, find a good tuner, or be able to afford to pay someone with all that knowledge to do it for you.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

I have a 2.5 greddy evo 2 with hflow cat and bigger resonator
According to the cr calculator with pr3 pistons head milled to.020 with oem 3 layer gasket the cr would be 12.09. We only got 92 octane here so I don't want to go above 12.5.
The head intake side has been mildly ported, cleaned up the casting rough edges, the intake will be same and port matched to head and throttle body, as well as tb to the intake.

I heard a lot of mixed opinions and not sure what's true anymore.
I heard:
Buddy club and more agressive skunk 2 cams eat up ur valve tran
Crowes cams don't get u much advantage over stock they are pretty mild and damage ur head as well
Bumpstix are overrated and endyn just a good salesman
Endyn suggests bumpstix for my purpose instead of skunk saying they are easier on the valve tran.

I have some help from a guy I know he's been building hotrods and 4cylinders as well.
And I'm pretty good at research. I was just doing it too fast and got overloaded with bunch of contradicting info.

00Red_SiR

The problem with the calculator is that it assumes a lot. I have my GSR head milled .030" and have flat faced valves on the exhaust side and my combustion chambers cc out to 42cc. The compression calculator "assumes" the stock chamber is 41.6cc which is often way off and had a large effect on actual compression ratio. Even though I've had some minor chamber work done to my ported head, it still wouldn't make up for the difference.

As far as the mild porting goes on your head, if the port throat wasn't touched or an enhanced valve job wasn't done, your head will flow exactly the same as stock, it'll just look a little nicer.

As far as cams and what you heard goes, there's some truth to it but you have to know how to see it and evaluate it. Any performance cam that has increased lift and duration over a stock cam, especially one requiring aftermarket valve springs, will put additional stress on the valvetrain. This does not mean that it will "eat valvetrain". That happens for a few different reasons which have been discussed in this forum before. Using a good quality oil or oil additive with zinck in it can help, proper installation and break in proceedure as well. Checking the condition of the rocker arms before installing new cams and replacing any chewed up ones will go a long way as well.

Buddy Club and Skunk make good cams, with the skunk pro series probably being a little better out of the two, being the newest cam profiles on the market. Bumpstix are good cams but are very similar to the skunk 2 tuner 2 cams and Jun 3 cams. They all have stock like primary lobes and will be easier on your valvetrain compared to the skunk pro series, but not make as much power below VTEC engagement.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

as far as i understood the theory behind head porting is to reduce turbulence and low/high pressure/velocity points so the air flows in a controlled pattern all the way down to the combustion chamber with as low interference as possible.
helping the air to stay evenly saturated with fuel particles without creating droplets that dont burn up all the way.
stock, starting from filter down to the combustion chamber theres alot of them
casting, couplings,diameter changes etc.

apart from flow bench i belive, if you have a good understanding of physics you should be able to get rid of few of those roadblocks
1 removing the casting imperfections, will reduce turbulence
2 grinding down the sand casting to its floor (not past it) will keep relatively same runner size and shape but with much smoother walls and less uneven areas(no polishing) a little less drag on the walls
3 portmatching from the filter all the way down to the valves will reduce turbulence as well.
the biggest interference would be still the throttle body which can be also worked on to improve the edges of the butterfly assembly

so even if i dont do an extensive porting i think it will still be beneficial
im also aware of the situatins that you mentioned when people try to do a DIY port and polish they over-work it and destroy the OEM runner shape and diameter and create more air disturbance than they began with.
which i didnt do .
but i do like to learn so if you think im wrong please correct me with a good explanation...

i will test it on a dyno to see the results. i havent touched the skunk 2 IM yet
i just did the stock GSR manifold and i have an extra one that i will put on first.
if the gsr IM turns out to have me some gains then i will repeat my work on teh skunk2 IM


i dont think i will be able to get anything other than type-r pistons from RS machine since i only found them on ebay in 81.5 size and they only come in p73
i cant afford to spend 600-700$ on pistons at the moment.

is there any knockoffs for those headers you menioned because i definitely wont be able to afford a namebrand right now.
unfortunately i have more time than money so thats what im gonna make up the lower quality of parts with a better quality install.
i have sucessfully done that in car stereo to build great sounding systems with very cheap compnents and i think i can apply it to engines as well.

from evans tuning i ve seen most of the pro1 cams beeing used for 2 liter engines
even with 81.5 bore this will be only 1.83L.

then another 2 questions
which component would be a bottleneck with following setup
same setup with skunk 2 stage 2
same setup with sk2 pro2
same setup with buddy club 4 cams

heres what id like to see but with a little bit higher numbers in torque and power
it looks like a very basic setup not much internal work done unless they didnt include some parts or work.


http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewt...hp?f=39&t=4841
http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewt...hp?f=39&t=2807
theres few other setups making different numbers with what seems to be same components can anyone explain that?

rev-speed

for a daily driver i would ve trade the block for a stock b20 block
the tq gain with be well worth it................

OMG THE GOGGLES

iTrader: (7)

Rocket M22x Camshafts (look into those, you'll be happy you did)

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

i like the gsr block
i like the redline and all.
b20 block gonna need some work to get it to same red line safely.
this is gonna be a stock looking engine bay

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

i was looking at these here seems like a pretty good deal for 720 from yoparts
now if i buy those, should i replace my supertech springs/retainers with buddy club that come in the package? which ones are better?

http://thmotorsports.com/buddy_club/...4COM-B-04-2000

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

Bumpy road. I'm about to order everything. Don't know which cams.out of 3 I listed.
Also another question
Would 82mm bore hold up with this setup with stock redline.
If not then will posting the cylinders help to keep them in place?

OMG THE GOGGLES

iTrader: (7)

There are 82mm builds that have lasted however that is probably the max you would want to go on stock sleeves. It is funny how small of an incriment only a mm is, but it does matter. I would personally say 81 or 81.5 for best bet.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

So if I go 82 a good tune is out of question then.
But with skunk2pro1 wouldnt. Power curve shift past stock gsr redline?
Can someone explain to me the difference between those cams? Where exactly am I gonna see the power increase?
With all the skunk 2 series cams and the buddy club. Because I could not find much besides stage 2 pro1 ans bc4

00Red_SiR

82mm bore and a good tune is fine. Power curve will increase over and above stock. You will see more power everywhere in the power curve with the pro 1 cams.

00Red_SiR

That is one part of the purpose behind head porting. What about velocity? do you know why it's important? how much (velocity) is too much and why? Changing pipe/open space diameters isn't always a bad thing especially once the air comes through the throttle body, you want it to slow down to make the turn into the runners. Going from a small opening into a larger one will cause the air to slow down, the reverse is opposite. Do you understand the relationship between the throat diameter to the port size? Do you understand that the port clean up is the least important part of porting a head? Getting rid of "core shift" through bowl blending and cutting decent valve angles is where you gain most of your flow. You should read up on fluid dynamics or head porting in general if you want to better understand some of the things I mentioned.

fluid dynamics is what you need to understand. Removing casting imprefections doesn't always reduce turbulence. If it's core shift in the valve throat, then it will cause bad turbulence and you don't want it there. Grind/blend it there and it will usually pick up some power.

Sanding down the walls isn't always a good idea either. Ever hear of the term "boundry layer"? It refers to the air flowing through the port and not the metal you're grinding off.

Removing turbulence is one small detail. Increasing the amount of air (volume) while maintaining the same level of velocity at most valve lifts is what really creates the potential for more power. Port matching which is really all you're doing is usually good for 1-2 hp on a dyno.

The GSR intake will make a lot more power in the low to mid range area compared to the skunk 2 intake manifold FYI. The Skunk will beat it up top.

You can buy a Hytech replica header from nearly everywhere. Other people copy other top brands but I don't condone giving them any money.

Taking your time to do a good install is always a good idea, but if you lack real experience and knowledge on building an engine, you'll be taking your time but you won't be building an engine that's going to make much more power than another. There are some cheap parts out there that will never live up to the power and reliability of the good quality stuff.

Most people I have seen run pro 2's and even pro 3's on a B20. Pro 1's are definitely not to big for a 1.8L.

bottle neck? with different cams? if it's a bottle neck it doesn't matter what cams you run it's going to hurt your performance period.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

NICE!!!! I LIKE

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

yea i definitley dont have tools for that lol.
porting i mean. i can grind it all day and finger it all i want but without flowbench it will be useless.
i dont know any local shops that have flowbench either,(seattle area) most of the shops here send the head out to someone. and alot of heads here are floating around with a DIY port jobs so it skinda shitty lol, even the one i got came with a "mild" head port of unknown origin.

like i said i have basic understanding of what you was talking about above.
as well as physics in general that helped me thru audio installs also.
so im pretty confident that i can get it right cuz i check twice before cutting thats why im on here asking 3000 questions before even ordering the parts even though its SO FN TEMPTING just to push that order button.

what i meant about the bottle neck is if the setup is same in all 3 with exceptions of cams
for example if i use gsr cams obviously they will not be big enough to make power.
and if i use skunk 2 pro2 or 3 they will be kinda overkill for this.
so if i use buddy club stage 3 for example would they be a bottle neck?
and if i use pro2 what would need to be upgraded in this case?

and 00RED, where do i go to learn more about porting, i ve been checking out endyn but they dont really have much for noobs they have small pieces here and there for specific cases.

00Red_SiR

The best advice I can give you about the cams is to look through the all motor dyno's (in the FAQ's at the top of this page). There you will see what kind of cams people use on different sized motors and part combinations and the power they can make. You will have a much better understanding of "bottle neck" then.

Head porting, you can search the info on this site or google it but it is not something where you can read about it and just go do it with good results. People who try to do it themselves virtually never make any more power, if anything they lose power. Head porting really is one of those things were if you want it done right, you have to send it to the appropriate person/shop.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

if im using stock gsr crank and rods, can i reuse the rod/main bearings if they still good or do i have to replace the rod bearings every time i take them off?

should i also get arp rod bolts or do they need any specific installation compared to stock?

95skunkedgsr

i would replace the bearings and then if you want run the arp rod bolts for safty

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

another question
im stuck between pr3 and p73 pistons and 81.5 or 82mm bore(stock sleves)
the head has some scratches on it so it will have to be milled, im not sure what its been thru but it looks like a cat was playing with it lol.
can anyone tell me by looking at images how much would it need to be milled down(approx)
and also the block is very clean surface what is normally taken off during a resurface?

how would i be able to calculate piston to valve clearance after milling?


heres the images

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

how much power would i be missing if i go with buddy club 4 or BC3+ instead of skunk2 pro1?

how do my domes look btw anyone?

Combustion Contraption

Stock valve job = stock flow. I dont care how much you work the port.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

any feedback on the pictures?

00Red_SiR

Your pictures look normal. There's nothing that I can see that would suggest that the head needs to be milled. If you want to take it to the machine shop and have them check it over, that would be the thing to do. If you get them to cc the chambers, you'll have a much more accurate idea of where your compression ratio will be.

stumpyf4

Only a slight resurfacing is required. 0.005" should do quite nicely but ask the machine shop how much they take off.

You'll need to check valve to valve clearance first. The you clay for piston to valve clearance along with your cam degree settings to find out what your safe zone is.

When I did my RS ITR's in my GSR I didn't have enough piston to deck clearance to run/try a 2 layer head gasket. The P30's have less compression height and more compression, if I had to do over I'd do these. Also I'd do a LS crank/rod if you really want that torque.

Think again about the Supertech springs/retainers, do you really that high of a seat pressure on a daily driver?