fully built ls.....smoking
09-03-2013, 12:40 PM
#1
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fully built ls.....smoking
This is probably the wrong section to be posting in. But before you delete or ban me...
I recently finished building my ls for me eg si hatch.
Obd1 b18b
82mm forged wiesco pistons
eagle esp h-beam rods
arp main studs
arp rod bolts
arp head studs
acl race bearings
brian crower stage 2 n/a cams
brian crower flat dish stainless valves
brian crower dual titanium springs and retainers
Supertech valve guides
cometic head gasket
cometic valve seals
skunk 2 pro series intake mani
skunk 2 70mm throttle body
rc 310cc injectors
aem fuel rail
aem fuel pressure regulator
aem adjustable cam gears
.... anyways so heres the deal. This was my first build. I took the time to double and triple check everything. Every nut and bolt under the hood was torqued to spec....helms manual. So I fired it up l.. ran like ****. Turned out had a plug wire crossed. Ima dumbass I know. Got that all straight. Changed the oil. Did a compression test for the **** of it. 120 across the board. Took it down the road a few times. Changed the oil. Have right at 100 miles in the motor now.... without a tune.. dumbass again I know. Anyways heres the problem im facing. Im getting white smoke at startup. Then at idle nothing. Then when I rev it returns. Its not thick and smells like unburnt fuel. But fuel burns black??? Im not losing coolant and there is nothing in the oil. Soo what is it? Could it be that im running rich because I know I am. No tune still. But im not driving it anymore. Im painting that bish. Could I have a blown headgasket since it didnt get a full heat cycle at initial start up? I dont want to ask but the rings washed out? Haven't done a second compression test yet. Any ideas? Im going to post a link any help would be great!!!!
I recently finished building my ls for me eg si hatch.
Obd1 b18b
82mm forged wiesco pistons
eagle esp h-beam rods
arp main studs
arp rod bolts
arp head studs
acl race bearings
brian crower stage 2 n/a cams
brian crower flat dish stainless valves
brian crower dual titanium springs and retainers
Supertech valve guides
cometic head gasket
cometic valve seals
skunk 2 pro series intake mani
skunk 2 70mm throttle body
rc 310cc injectors
aem fuel rail
aem fuel pressure regulator
aem adjustable cam gears
.... anyways so heres the deal. This was my first build. I took the time to double and triple check everything. Every nut and bolt under the hood was torqued to spec....helms manual. So I fired it up l.. ran like ****. Turned out had a plug wire crossed. Ima dumbass I know. Got that all straight. Changed the oil. Did a compression test for the **** of it. 120 across the board. Took it down the road a few times. Changed the oil. Have right at 100 miles in the motor now.... without a tune.. dumbass again I know. Anyways heres the problem im facing. Im getting white smoke at startup. Then at idle nothing. Then when I rev it returns. Its not thick and smells like unburnt fuel. But fuel burns black??? Im not losing coolant and there is nothing in the oil. Soo what is it? Could it be that im running rich because I know I am. No tune still. But im not driving it anymore. Im painting that bish. Could I have a blown headgasket since it didnt get a full heat cycle at initial start up? I dont want to ask but the rings washed out? Haven't done a second compression test yet. Any ideas? Im going to post a link any help would be great!!!!
09-03-2013, 03:55 PM
#6
Honda-Tech Member
Re: fully built ls.....smoking
How did you seat the rings? How did you break in the motor?
Sounds like the rings arent seated yet especially if youre only seeing 120psi across the board.
Generally you wont see 4 cylinders low with a blown headgasket. White smoke on startup sometimes comes from moisture in the exhaust.
Sounds like the rings arent seated yet especially if youre only seeing 120psi across the board.
Generally you wont see 4 cylinders low with a blown headgasket. White smoke on startup sometimes comes from moisture in the exhaust.
09-03-2013, 05:01 PM
#7
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Re: fully built ls.....smoking
I did the compression test after the first start. I knew the rings wernt seated at the time and as they seat comoressuon readings will go up. I did it motor cold with wot and all plugs removed. For break in driving did short bursts of quarter to half throttle and a **** ton of engine breaking for about 20 miles.
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09-03-2013, 05:11 PM
#9
Re: fully built ls.....smoking
Yuo shouldve ran the engine at idle to check for leaks only. then tow it to your tuner and have it tuned for 14.3-14.9 at idle then tune from there.
Heres some info for ya:
The Proper Method to Break in your New Engine
One of the most asked questions is how do I break in my new motor? The short answer is that no break-in is necessary. The only thing that is necessary is to seat the rings. All clearances and fitments should be perfect after blueprinting and precision assembly. So how many miles do you have to drive it to seat the rings? The cylinders are round, the rings are round, the bore is freshly honed and therefore your engine should be ready for tuning immediately. They will continue to seat better over a short period of time but you should be ready to go tune right away.
Do I need to drive it 500 miles before I tune it? Absolutely not. How about 50 miles? No. Perhaps the best thing to do is to drive it all the way to your trailer and tow it to a competent tuner. In second position on the “things NOT to do list” is trying to break in an un-tuned engine by driving it. Too lean an air/fuel will begin to heat and distort parts, too rich will wash the oil off the cylinders causing premature wear. What is in first place on the “things NOT to do list”? Boost on an un-tuned motor. Within 2 to 3 seconds the pistons and cylinders can be ruined.
Well I did put in a new base map or I’m just running off the stock Honda computer. Can’t I drive it like that for a few miles? I’m not even boosting. Well what is the base map? Just someone’s idea of what numbers will start your car. Just an educated guess by someone who does not have a clue what components you are running in your set-up. It’s not intended to drive on for any extended period of time. The same with that stock Honda computer. It could be ok but it could also be dangerously wrong.
So what exactly do I do at the first engine start-up? Pull the spark plugs and crank the motor with your starter for a maximum of 30 seconds or until you see the oil pressure gauge begin to register. Re-install the plugs and wires and fire up that candle. While keeping one eye on the oil pressure gauge, use your other eye to scan for fuel leaks. If there are no fuel leaks, look under the motor for any major oil or coolant leaks. If that is ok, run the engine for 5 to 10 minutes while keeping an eye on the temperature and pressure gauges. Keep the rpm’s between 1000-3000. Shut the engine down and double-check everything. You are now ready for tuning.
But my engine was already tuned from my previous set-up. Well, what happened to your previous set-up? Did you melt a stock piston or crack a cylinder? No problem because now you have forged pistons and sleeves? Wrong. Although you now have stronger components that will take more abuse, you are still not right on your air fuel mixture. Get that thing tuned properly ASAP.
OK, I did it my way instead of yours and now I’m burning a lot of oil. What happened? Well basically you scarred up the skirt of the piston, messed up the surface of the cylinder wall and maybe even egg shaped the cylinder. New pistons are tapered smaller on the top to larger at the bottom of the skirt. Your piston to wall clearance is measured at the bottom of the skirt. As the engine warms up to operating temperature, the upper portion of the piston begins to expand slightly. The bottom of the skirt does not expand much. When you boost in a lean condition, the upper part of the piston expands quickly. Since the ring land area is cut smaller than the tapered skirt below it, the first part of the piston that pushes into the cylinder wall is just below the oil ring. Thus you will see the worst scarring on your piston right under the ring lands where the excess heat is the highest.
The more heat that is generated, the harder the piston pushes into the cylinder wall. The uninformed would blame the piston damage on bad piston to wall clearance. Untrue. If that were the problem, the damage would show up at the very bottom of the skirt. What has happened is that you have expanded your piston to the point that it has just ground itself into the cylinder wall. Keep expanding the piston by super heating it and it will push your cylinder egg shaped and maybe even balloon out the cylinder slightly. At the same time this is happening, your ring lands will begin to distort to where they will never seal properly again. Sometimes after doing this, the engine will still run but it will be a smoker. This all happens in a few seconds of high boost with a lean air fuel ratio. Also it can happen from 500 freeway miles of driving where the tune up is off enough to build excess heat at a slower rate, thus doing the same damage over a longer period of time…but the end results are the same. Death to your pistons and cylinder walls.
OK, I’m just going to turn the fuel pressure way up and run extra fat, that way I won’t hurt anything. If you run too rich, you will “wash out” the rings. First, excess fuel will run down the cylinders taking the lubricating oil with it. This promotes direct metal-to-metal contact between the rings and the cylinder wall. This contact does several things. The upper ring begins to wear quickly. The middle ring is actually designed as a tapered oil scraper (it is not used for compression control at all) and the taper will begin to wear down to where it becomes flat rather than angled. When that happens, it can no longer control oil away from the combustion chamber. The last thing that happens is that pretty cross hatch design begins to wear off of the cylinder wall. While most people think that the cross hatch is there to help seat the rings, it also has a secondary purpose. That is to hold microscopic amounts of oil in the grooves to help lubricate ring to cylinder walls. With the walls smooth and no oil control help from the middle ring and a tired upper ring, oil will begin to mix with fuel in the combustion chamber. When this happens, your 93 octane fuel probably hits a value of about 80. Then detonation comes into play and begins to beat holes in the pistons, among other things.
So whom can I blame for this mess? The blind machinist that honed my piston to wall clearance? That poor quality Brand X piston manufacturer? The idiot pro engine builder that assembled my block? My ex-friend that helped me put this all together? Those ignorant engineers that gave me a bad base map with my engine management system? The guy on the internet message board whose buddy knows that it takes at least 1000 miles of break in before you can tune an engine properly? All of the above? Probably none of the above. Go look in a mirror and ask…who started this engine and had no idea what the air fuel ratio was? Who just wanted to jump on it one time to see if it would haul? Who didn’t know that their injectors were at 100% duty cycle at 4000 rpm but they wanted to see how it would run at 6000 rpm? Why it was you. Get that thing tuned right away. You will notice that the more you drive a tuned motor, the stronger it will feel. This is just the rings seating in their final 5-10% as they thank you for tuning first.
Heres some info for ya:
The Proper Method to Break in your New Engine
One of the most asked questions is how do I break in my new motor? The short answer is that no break-in is necessary. The only thing that is necessary is to seat the rings. All clearances and fitments should be perfect after blueprinting and precision assembly. So how many miles do you have to drive it to seat the rings? The cylinders are round, the rings are round, the bore is freshly honed and therefore your engine should be ready for tuning immediately. They will continue to seat better over a short period of time but you should be ready to go tune right away.
Do I need to drive it 500 miles before I tune it? Absolutely not. How about 50 miles? No. Perhaps the best thing to do is to drive it all the way to your trailer and tow it to a competent tuner. In second position on the “things NOT to do list” is trying to break in an un-tuned engine by driving it. Too lean an air/fuel will begin to heat and distort parts, too rich will wash the oil off the cylinders causing premature wear. What is in first place on the “things NOT to do list”? Boost on an un-tuned motor. Within 2 to 3 seconds the pistons and cylinders can be ruined.
Well I did put in a new base map or I’m just running off the stock Honda computer. Can’t I drive it like that for a few miles? I’m not even boosting. Well what is the base map? Just someone’s idea of what numbers will start your car. Just an educated guess by someone who does not have a clue what components you are running in your set-up. It’s not intended to drive on for any extended period of time. The same with that stock Honda computer. It could be ok but it could also be dangerously wrong.
So what exactly do I do at the first engine start-up? Pull the spark plugs and crank the motor with your starter for a maximum of 30 seconds or until you see the oil pressure gauge begin to register. Re-install the plugs and wires and fire up that candle. While keeping one eye on the oil pressure gauge, use your other eye to scan for fuel leaks. If there are no fuel leaks, look under the motor for any major oil or coolant leaks. If that is ok, run the engine for 5 to 10 minutes while keeping an eye on the temperature and pressure gauges. Keep the rpm’s between 1000-3000. Shut the engine down and double-check everything. You are now ready for tuning.
But my engine was already tuned from my previous set-up. Well, what happened to your previous set-up? Did you melt a stock piston or crack a cylinder? No problem because now you have forged pistons and sleeves? Wrong. Although you now have stronger components that will take more abuse, you are still not right on your air fuel mixture. Get that thing tuned properly ASAP.
OK, I did it my way instead of yours and now I’m burning a lot of oil. What happened? Well basically you scarred up the skirt of the piston, messed up the surface of the cylinder wall and maybe even egg shaped the cylinder. New pistons are tapered smaller on the top to larger at the bottom of the skirt. Your piston to wall clearance is measured at the bottom of the skirt. As the engine warms up to operating temperature, the upper portion of the piston begins to expand slightly. The bottom of the skirt does not expand much. When you boost in a lean condition, the upper part of the piston expands quickly. Since the ring land area is cut smaller than the tapered skirt below it, the first part of the piston that pushes into the cylinder wall is just below the oil ring. Thus you will see the worst scarring on your piston right under the ring lands where the excess heat is the highest.
The more heat that is generated, the harder the piston pushes into the cylinder wall. The uninformed would blame the piston damage on bad piston to wall clearance. Untrue. If that were the problem, the damage would show up at the very bottom of the skirt. What has happened is that you have expanded your piston to the point that it has just ground itself into the cylinder wall. Keep expanding the piston by super heating it and it will push your cylinder egg shaped and maybe even balloon out the cylinder slightly. At the same time this is happening, your ring lands will begin to distort to where they will never seal properly again. Sometimes after doing this, the engine will still run but it will be a smoker. This all happens in a few seconds of high boost with a lean air fuel ratio. Also it can happen from 500 freeway miles of driving where the tune up is off enough to build excess heat at a slower rate, thus doing the same damage over a longer period of time…but the end results are the same. Death to your pistons and cylinder walls.
OK, I’m just going to turn the fuel pressure way up and run extra fat, that way I won’t hurt anything. If you run too rich, you will “wash out” the rings. First, excess fuel will run down the cylinders taking the lubricating oil with it. This promotes direct metal-to-metal contact between the rings and the cylinder wall. This contact does several things. The upper ring begins to wear quickly. The middle ring is actually designed as a tapered oil scraper (it is not used for compression control at all) and the taper will begin to wear down to where it becomes flat rather than angled. When that happens, it can no longer control oil away from the combustion chamber. The last thing that happens is that pretty cross hatch design begins to wear off of the cylinder wall. While most people think that the cross hatch is there to help seat the rings, it also has a secondary purpose. That is to hold microscopic amounts of oil in the grooves to help lubricate ring to cylinder walls. With the walls smooth and no oil control help from the middle ring and a tired upper ring, oil will begin to mix with fuel in the combustion chamber. When this happens, your 93 octane fuel probably hits a value of about 80. Then detonation comes into play and begins to beat holes in the pistons, among other things.
So whom can I blame for this mess? The blind machinist that honed my piston to wall clearance? That poor quality Brand X piston manufacturer? The idiot pro engine builder that assembled my block? My ex-friend that helped me put this all together? Those ignorant engineers that gave me a bad base map with my engine management system? The guy on the internet message board whose buddy knows that it takes at least 1000 miles of break in before you can tune an engine properly? All of the above? Probably none of the above. Go look in a mirror and ask…who started this engine and had no idea what the air fuel ratio was? Who just wanted to jump on it one time to see if it would haul? Who didn’t know that their injectors were at 100% duty cycle at 4000 rpm but they wanted to see how it would run at 6000 rpm? Why it was you. Get that thing tuned right away. You will notice that the more you drive a tuned motor, the stronger it will feel. This is just the rings seating in their final 5-10% as they thank you for tuning first.
Last edited by EsotericImage; 09-03-2013 at 05:34 PM.
09-03-2013, 06:24 PM
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Re: fully built ls.....smoking
I agree with the above post. Unless you do a rebuild of a bone stock engine and leave it bone stock a tune will always be in order. I do believe the rings need to seat properly. I use non-detergent 30w oil for the first 20-30min of idle time on a rebuild to help seat the rings quicker. I always change the oil to synthetic right after the 30 min warm up and NEVER drive with the 30w non detergent. The only time I've had a bad ring seal was with a block that was bored incorrectly and I didn't have a dial bore have to verify out-of-roundness. But that engine smoked like a summ bitch. I mean smoke screen cloud coverage. It was bad.
09-03-2013, 06:54 PM
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Re: fully built ls.....smoking
Not sure where my post went but................. Do you have a wideband installed? Please have your car towed to your tuner and let him/her handle the rest.
Last edited by Fink29; 09-03-2013 at 06:55 PM. Reason: ...
09-04-2013, 01:04 AM
#12
all those mods on a fresh engine and no tune? shame on you.
I have a decent stock head im gonna run to break in my engine while my nice head gets a rebuild and I save up for an s300 setup. then install everything needed to tune before I swap from the stock setup to the new head.
if you arent able to tune it right after its built, its better to run it as close to as stock as you can until the engine is broken in (the reason for my stock head) after break in, get it prepped for tuning with the fun parts.
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I have a decent stock head im gonna run to break in my engine while my nice head gets a rebuild and I save up for an s300 setup. then install everything needed to tune before I swap from the stock setup to the new head.
if you arent able to tune it right after its built, its better to run it as close to as stock as you can until the engine is broken in (the reason for my stock head) after break in, get it prepped for tuning with the fun parts.
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09-04-2013, 09:22 PM
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Re: fully built ls.....smoking
Yuo shouldve ran the engine at idle to check for leaks only. then tow it to your tuner and have it tuned for 14.3-14.9 at idle then tune from there.
Heres some info for ya:
The Proper Method to Break in your New Engine
One of the most asked questions is how do I break in my new motor? The short answer is that no break-in is necessary. The only thing that is necessary is to seat the rings. All clearances and fitments should be perfect after blueprinting and precision assembly. So how many miles do you have to drive it to seat the rings? The cylinders are round, the rings are round, the bore is freshly honed and therefore your engine should be ready for tuning immediately. They will continue to seat better over a short period of time but you should be ready to go tune right away.
Do I need to drive it 500 miles before I tune it? Absolutely not. How about 50 miles? No. Perhaps the best thing to do is to drive it all the way to your trailer and tow it to a competent tuner. In second position on the “things NOT to do list” is trying to break in an un-tuned engine by driving it. Too lean an air/fuel will begin to heat and distort parts, too rich will wash the oil off the cylinders causing premature wear. What is in first place on the “things NOT to do list”? Boost on an un-tuned motor. Within 2 to 3 seconds the pistons and cylinders can be ruined.
Well I did put in a new base map or I’m just running off the stock Honda computer. Can’t I drive it like that for a few miles? I’m not even boosting. Well what is the base map? Just someone’s idea of what numbers will start your car. Just an educated guess by someone who does not have a clue what components you are running in your set-up. It’s not intended to drive on for any extended period of time. The same with that stock Honda computer. It could be ok but it could also be dangerously wrong.
So what exactly do I do at the first engine start-up? Pull the spark plugs and crank the motor with your starter for a maximum of 30 seconds or until you see the oil pressure gauge begin to register. Re-install the plugs and wires and fire up that candle. While keeping one eye on the oil pressure gauge, use your other eye to scan for fuel leaks. If there are no fuel leaks, look under the motor for any major oil or coolant leaks. If that is ok, run the engine for 5 to 10 minutes while keeping an eye on the temperature and pressure gauges. Keep the rpm’s between 1000-3000. Shut the engine down and double-check everything. You are now ready for tuning.
But my engine was already tuned from my previous set-up. Well, what happened to your previous set-up? Did you melt a stock piston or crack a cylinder? No problem because now you have forged pistons and sleeves? Wrong. Although you now have stronger components that will take more abuse, you are still not right on your air fuel mixture. Get that thing tuned properly ASAP.
OK, I did it my way instead of yours and now I’m burning a lot of oil. What happened? Well basically you scarred up the skirt of the piston, messed up the surface of the cylinder wall and maybe even egg shaped the cylinder. New pistons are tapered smaller on the top to larger at the bottom of the skirt. Your piston to wall clearance is measured at the bottom of the skirt. As the engine warms up to operating temperature, the upper portion of the piston begins to expand slightly. The bottom of the skirt does not expand much. When you boost in a lean condition, the upper part of the piston expands quickly. Since the ring land area is cut smaller than the tapered skirt below it, the first part of the piston that pushes into the cylinder wall is just below the oil ring. Thus you will see the worst scarring on your piston right under the ring lands where the excess heat is the highest.
The more heat that is generated, the harder the piston pushes into the cylinder wall. The uninformed would blame the piston damage on bad piston to wall clearance. Untrue. If that were the problem, the damage would show up at the very bottom of the skirt. What has happened is that you have expanded your piston to the point that it has just ground itself into the cylinder wall. Keep expanding the piston by super heating it and it will push your cylinder egg shaped and maybe even balloon out the cylinder slightly. At the same time this is happening, your ring lands will begin to distort to where they will never seal properly again. Sometimes after doing this, the engine will still run but it will be a smoker. This all happens in a few seconds of high boost with a lean air fuel ratio. Also it can happen from 500 freeway miles of driving where the tune up is off enough to build excess heat at a slower rate, thus doing the same damage over a longer period of time…but the end results are the same. Death to your pistons and cylinder walls.
OK, I’m just going to turn the fuel pressure way up and run extra fat, that way I won’t hurt anything. If you run too rich, you will “wash out” the rings. First, excess fuel will run down the cylinders taking the lubricating oil with it. This promotes direct metal-to-metal contact between the rings and the cylinder wall. This contact does several things. The upper ring begins to wear quickly. The middle ring is actually designed as a tapered oil scraper (it is not used for compression control at all) and the taper will begin to wear down to where it becomes flat rather than angled. When that happens, it can no longer control oil away from the combustion chamber. The last thing that happens is that pretty cross hatch design begins to wear off of the cylinder wall. While most people think that the cross hatch is there to help seat the rings, it also has a secondary purpose. That is to hold microscopic amounts of oil in the grooves to help lubricate ring to cylinder walls. With the walls smooth and no oil control help from the middle ring and a tired upper ring, oil will begin to mix with fuel in the combustion chamber. When this happens, your 93 octane fuel probably hits a value of about 80. Then detonation comes into play and begins to beat holes in the pistons, among other things.
So whom can I blame for this mess? The blind machinist that honed my piston to wall clearance? That poor quality Brand X piston manufacturer? The idiot pro engine builder that assembled my block? My ex-friend that helped me put this all together? Those ignorant engineers that gave me a bad base map with my engine management system? The guy on the internet message board whose buddy knows that it takes at least 1000 miles of break in before you can tune an engine properly? All of the above? Probably none of the above. Go look in a mirror and ask…who started this engine and had no idea what the air fuel ratio was? Who just wanted to jump on it one time to see if it would haul? Who didn’t know that their injectors were at 100% duty cycle at 4000 rpm but they wanted to see how it would run at 6000 rpm? Why it was you. Get that thing tuned right away. You will notice that the more you drive a tuned motor, the stronger it will feel. This is just the rings seating in their final 5-10% as they thank you for tuning first.
Heres some info for ya:
The Proper Method to Break in your New Engine
One of the most asked questions is how do I break in my new motor? The short answer is that no break-in is necessary. The only thing that is necessary is to seat the rings. All clearances and fitments should be perfect after blueprinting and precision assembly. So how many miles do you have to drive it to seat the rings? The cylinders are round, the rings are round, the bore is freshly honed and therefore your engine should be ready for tuning immediately. They will continue to seat better over a short period of time but you should be ready to go tune right away.
Do I need to drive it 500 miles before I tune it? Absolutely not. How about 50 miles? No. Perhaps the best thing to do is to drive it all the way to your trailer and tow it to a competent tuner. In second position on the “things NOT to do list” is trying to break in an un-tuned engine by driving it. Too lean an air/fuel will begin to heat and distort parts, too rich will wash the oil off the cylinders causing premature wear. What is in first place on the “things NOT to do list”? Boost on an un-tuned motor. Within 2 to 3 seconds the pistons and cylinders can be ruined.
Well I did put in a new base map or I’m just running off the stock Honda computer. Can’t I drive it like that for a few miles? I’m not even boosting. Well what is the base map? Just someone’s idea of what numbers will start your car. Just an educated guess by someone who does not have a clue what components you are running in your set-up. It’s not intended to drive on for any extended period of time. The same with that stock Honda computer. It could be ok but it could also be dangerously wrong.
So what exactly do I do at the first engine start-up? Pull the spark plugs and crank the motor with your starter for a maximum of 30 seconds or until you see the oil pressure gauge begin to register. Re-install the plugs and wires and fire up that candle. While keeping one eye on the oil pressure gauge, use your other eye to scan for fuel leaks. If there are no fuel leaks, look under the motor for any major oil or coolant leaks. If that is ok, run the engine for 5 to 10 minutes while keeping an eye on the temperature and pressure gauges. Keep the rpm’s between 1000-3000. Shut the engine down and double-check everything. You are now ready for tuning.
But my engine was already tuned from my previous set-up. Well, what happened to your previous set-up? Did you melt a stock piston or crack a cylinder? No problem because now you have forged pistons and sleeves? Wrong. Although you now have stronger components that will take more abuse, you are still not right on your air fuel mixture. Get that thing tuned properly ASAP.
OK, I did it my way instead of yours and now I’m burning a lot of oil. What happened? Well basically you scarred up the skirt of the piston, messed up the surface of the cylinder wall and maybe even egg shaped the cylinder. New pistons are tapered smaller on the top to larger at the bottom of the skirt. Your piston to wall clearance is measured at the bottom of the skirt. As the engine warms up to operating temperature, the upper portion of the piston begins to expand slightly. The bottom of the skirt does not expand much. When you boost in a lean condition, the upper part of the piston expands quickly. Since the ring land area is cut smaller than the tapered skirt below it, the first part of the piston that pushes into the cylinder wall is just below the oil ring. Thus you will see the worst scarring on your piston right under the ring lands where the excess heat is the highest.
The more heat that is generated, the harder the piston pushes into the cylinder wall. The uninformed would blame the piston damage on bad piston to wall clearance. Untrue. If that were the problem, the damage would show up at the very bottom of the skirt. What has happened is that you have expanded your piston to the point that it has just ground itself into the cylinder wall. Keep expanding the piston by super heating it and it will push your cylinder egg shaped and maybe even balloon out the cylinder slightly. At the same time this is happening, your ring lands will begin to distort to where they will never seal properly again. Sometimes after doing this, the engine will still run but it will be a smoker. This all happens in a few seconds of high boost with a lean air fuel ratio. Also it can happen from 500 freeway miles of driving where the tune up is off enough to build excess heat at a slower rate, thus doing the same damage over a longer period of time…but the end results are the same. Death to your pistons and cylinder walls.
OK, I’m just going to turn the fuel pressure way up and run extra fat, that way I won’t hurt anything. If you run too rich, you will “wash out” the rings. First, excess fuel will run down the cylinders taking the lubricating oil with it. This promotes direct metal-to-metal contact between the rings and the cylinder wall. This contact does several things. The upper ring begins to wear quickly. The middle ring is actually designed as a tapered oil scraper (it is not used for compression control at all) and the taper will begin to wear down to where it becomes flat rather than angled. When that happens, it can no longer control oil away from the combustion chamber. The last thing that happens is that pretty cross hatch design begins to wear off of the cylinder wall. While most people think that the cross hatch is there to help seat the rings, it also has a secondary purpose. That is to hold microscopic amounts of oil in the grooves to help lubricate ring to cylinder walls. With the walls smooth and no oil control help from the middle ring and a tired upper ring, oil will begin to mix with fuel in the combustion chamber. When this happens, your 93 octane fuel probably hits a value of about 80. Then detonation comes into play and begins to beat holes in the pistons, among other things.
So whom can I blame for this mess? The blind machinist that honed my piston to wall clearance? That poor quality Brand X piston manufacturer? The idiot pro engine builder that assembled my block? My ex-friend that helped me put this all together? Those ignorant engineers that gave me a bad base map with my engine management system? The guy on the internet message board whose buddy knows that it takes at least 1000 miles of break in before you can tune an engine properly? All of the above? Probably none of the above. Go look in a mirror and ask…who started this engine and had no idea what the air fuel ratio was? Who just wanted to jump on it one time to see if it would haul? Who didn’t know that their injectors were at 100% duty cycle at 4000 rpm but they wanted to see how it would run at 6000 rpm? Why it was you. Get that thing tuned right away. You will notice that the more you drive a tuned motor, the stronger it will feel. This is just the rings seating in their final 5-10% as they thank you for tuning first.
09-06-2013, 12:26 AM
#15
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Re: fully built ls.....smoking
what ecu? maybe your running rich cause youre untuned with 310 injectors. whats your fuel pressure at?
can you check your oil pressure?
check for any loose or cracked clamps on that coolant youre losing?
can you check your oil pressure?
check for any loose or cracked clamps on that coolant youre losing?
09-06-2013, 05:09 AM
#16
Honda-Tech Member
09-06-2013, 10:53 AM
#17
Honda-Tech Member
Re: fully built ls.....smoking
This is probably the wrong section to be posting in. But before you delete or ban me...
I recently finished building my ls for me eg si hatch.
Obd1 b18b
82mm forged wiesco pistons
eagle esp h-beam rods
arp main studs
arp rod bolts
arp head studs
acl race bearings
brian crower stage 2 n/a cams
brian crower flat dish stainless valves
brian crower dual titanium springs and retainers
Supertech valve guides
cometic head gasket
cometic valve seals
skunk 2 pro series intake mani
skunk 2 70mm throttle body
rc 310cc injectors
aem fuel rail
aem fuel pressure regulator
aem adjustable cam gears
.... anyways so heres the deal. This was my first build. I took the time to double and triple check everything. Every nut and bolt under the hood was torqued to spec....helms manual. So I fired it up l.. ran like ****. Turned out had a plug wire crossed. Ima dumbass I know. Got that all straight. Changed the oil. Did a compression test for the **** of it. 120 across the board. Took it down the road a few times. Changed the oil. Have right at 100 miles in the motor now.... without a tune.. dumbass again I know. Anyways heres the problem im facing. Im getting white smoke at startup. Then at idle nothing. Then when I rev it returns. Its not thick and smells like unburnt fuel. But fuel burns black??? Im not losing coolant and there is nothing in the oil. Soo what is it? Could it be that im running rich because I know I am. No tune still. But im not driving it anymore. Im painting that bish. Could I have a blown headgasket since it didnt get a full heat cycle at initial start up? I dont want to ask but the rings washed out? Haven't done a second compression test yet. Any ideas? Im going to post a link any help would be great!!!!
I recently finished building my ls for me eg si hatch.
Obd1 b18b
82mm forged wiesco pistons
eagle esp h-beam rods
arp main studs
arp rod bolts
arp head studs
acl race bearings
brian crower stage 2 n/a cams
brian crower flat dish stainless valves
brian crower dual titanium springs and retainers
Supertech valve guides
cometic head gasket
cometic valve seals
skunk 2 pro series intake mani
skunk 2 70mm throttle body
rc 310cc injectors
aem fuel rail
aem fuel pressure regulator
aem adjustable cam gears
.... anyways so heres the deal. This was my first build. I took the time to double and triple check everything. Every nut and bolt under the hood was torqued to spec....helms manual. So I fired it up l.. ran like ****. Turned out had a plug wire crossed. Ima dumbass I know. Got that all straight. Changed the oil. Did a compression test for the **** of it. 120 across the board. Took it down the road a few times. Changed the oil. Have right at 100 miles in the motor now.... without a tune.. dumbass again I know. Anyways heres the problem im facing. Im getting white smoke at startup. Then at idle nothing. Then when I rev it returns. Its not thick and smells like unburnt fuel. But fuel burns black??? Im not losing coolant and there is nothing in the oil. Soo what is it? Could it be that im running rich because I know I am. No tune still. But im not driving it anymore. Im painting that bish. Could I have a blown headgasket since it didnt get a full heat cycle at initial start up? I dont want to ask but the rings washed out? Haven't done a second compression test yet. Any ideas? Im going to post a link any help would be great!!!!
Now you just need to pray that it wasnt so overly rich that you washed down the cylinder walls too bad and messed up the rings and hone job.
09-06-2013, 11:04 AM
#18
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Re: fully built ls.....smoking
Valve Guides? Ummm the guy that did my machine work told me that i was going to be seeing smoke at start up.. not on idle do to bronze guides.. Im not sure if thats true but thats what he told me.
09-06-2013, 03:22 PM
#19
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Re: fully built ls.....smoking
Im running an obd1 p75 ecu. And as for fuel pressure I have it set at 35psi. Also yes I am using bronze guides but ive never heard such a thing. Does yours smoke at start up with your bronze guides? I had the guides,valves,springs,retainers and seals all put in by the machine shop that did my line bore. Bore. Hone. Resurface and decking work.
09-06-2013, 04:26 PM
#22
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Re: fully built ls.....smoking
Dear Fucken Lord, Get the car tuned, stop Fucken around on this forum looking for short cuts.
Stock fuel pressure is 42psi with the vac line on. Set it there. Take it to a tuner.
A stock p75 ecu is a nonvtec, ls ecu that runs a 9:8CR motor on 240CC injectors. Battery offsets and dead times are ALL wrong for 310 injectors.
Stock fuel pressure is 42psi with the vac line on. Set it there. Take it to a tuner.
A stock p75 ecu is a nonvtec, ls ecu that runs a 9:8CR motor on 240CC injectors. Battery offsets and dead times are ALL wrong for 310 injectors.
09-06-2013, 04:41 PM
#23
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Re: fully built ls.....smoking
Ddtech. I didnt post on here to try and find a shortcut. I posted on here for help and to make sure everything is squared away before I tune. Tune is coming afyer I finish paint. It is not being driven. Im not lookong to drive it until its tuned. As for the fuel pressure I set it at 35 with vacum lines connected. Trying to help compensate for the larger injectors. I do have a bad o2 sensor as well. I think that may be the problem. For all those with helpful information thank you so much. For the 1 douche who just had to troll...suckadick
09-06-2013, 04:59 PM
#24
moderator emeritus
Re: fully built ls.....smoking
Fuel pressure does jack **** compared to calibrating the computer to the injector.
You've said nothing about compression, piston to wall, ring gaps..etc which can all have an effect on working compression.
Running around on a stock computer which isn't even remotely close to what your engine needs was a huge no no. Washing rings? Nah. It won't be that far off but the "bad" tune won't help your break in procedure, if you even used one. You have 100+ miles on it. The "break-in" is already done.
Get it tuned and hope for the best.
You've said nothing about compression, piston to wall, ring gaps..etc which can all have an effect on working compression.
Running around on a stock computer which isn't even remotely close to what your engine needs was a huge no no. Washing rings? Nah. It won't be that far off but the "bad" tune won't help your break in procedure, if you even used one. You have 100+ miles on it. The "break-in" is already done.
Get it tuned and hope for the best.