B20vEf9

ninor

There is, ever tried building your tranny?

Just looking at all these $$$ to mod the engine and chances are you end up with something less reliable than when you started.

Yes, displacement will make the power and all these big motors are the real deal, but $$$ are real as well.
Even to do something simple like B20V properly will run you thousands, once you start going custom or K $10K will be gone before you get started.

Back to original question. If I read correctly you have B20V with GSR tranny, you are happy, but you got the itch.
Personally 2 options I would pursue before touching the engine:
1 less extreme but solid, sell GSR tranny, buy USDM typeR and put 4.9FD in it.
2 more extreme, put 4.9 in GSR tranny with shorter 3rd 4th and 5th

If DD you can always use longer 5th to calm things down.
option 1 would be about $1500- $2000 minus GSR tranny sale
option 2 would be about $1500 but way more power to the ground

compared to your GSR tranny option 1 would give you probably 20%+ more power in 3rd for example
option 2 would be more like 30-40 % more power to the ground in 3rd as an example
I use 3rd gear just as a good average point for comparison.

What does your b20V put down on the dyno? Lets say 140lbft
option 1~ 170lbft to the ground
option 2 ~ 180-200lbft to the ground depending on gear ratios.

All this for less than 2K, keep the engine intact and reliable.

Building motors is one way, but this is another and honestly in NA world this is like attaching turbo to your engine...

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I agree with this concept, but I'd keep it simple and add either a 4.785 or even 4.9 FD in your current GS-R and don't change anything else. there's no need to go with shorter 3,4,5 gears. But ninor is right... there's no better torque multiplier than changing final drives in an already potent B20/VTEC.

dirtyharryhatch

I dont think anyone even spends anything close to 10k to drop in a kseries anymore that was like 4 years ago. You can buy a k24a4 for $350 down here, throw $800 piston and rod combo, spend 2k towards a cnc'd head and big cam setup.

You'll have a long block that's very capable of making 300whp with off the shelf products.
I dont really agree with your gearing idea.
If you don't have power gearing's not going to save you.
Gearing, IMO is meant to keep you in your power band. Not compensate for power. In realiaty your spending 2k to trick the dyno, lol that's all.

**** dyno numbers, trap speeds matter, not some stupid dyno sheet. We all know for a fact b20vs do not make 180-200 trq. lol

negusjuda

x2 gearing is so over looked nowadays yet it makes a world of a diffrence this is def my next move in my car

burnerspeed

Okay so I'm a little confused about the gearing. Does it allow you to use the full toppential of your engine power or does it just make you feel like your engine is stronger?

ninor

In regards to comment that building K motors is cheaper these days, OK if that is what it is. I've personally built many engines, and cost is always more than anticipated, but this is different discussion altogether and it might be unique to me. Also, you do realize that another important reason why K cars pull so well is because they have 6 speed tranny. Gearing is the major contributing factor.

In regards to gearing, this IS MAJOR difference between slow and fast cars. Engine power actually is in distant second place when it comes down to how quick the car is. Do not get me wrong, engine power is important, but not nearly so much as people in general think.

Here is a real life scenario for you. Do you know where GSR tranny is used the most in performance applications? It is used in high power, dedicated drag cars making 500+WHP because gearing is well spaced for that use and power level.

Here is another comparison for you. Two identical Integra type Rs. 2 differences:
car 1 has 194WHP modified engine and USDM type R tranny completely stock
car 2 has 170 WHP stock engine (couple of boltons)with USDM type R tranny and 4.929 FD and 3.077 first gear.

Which car is faster in 1/4 mile or road course?

In 1/4 mile they are even, on road course 170WHP car has an edge.

I hope this gives you an idea why is gearing so important. So if your B20V is let's say 180 WHP or 200WHP with GSR tranny in the car, you have no chance against similar weight car with 165WHP and 4.9FD USDM type R tranny.


Tranny puts power to the ground and is gear multiplier. If you have tranny that is geared wrong for your power/weight level, you have 2 options: change gearing or add more power and 20-30WHP will not do it, you will need 100+ whp in some cases to get long tranny to start to sing.

And here is the hard data:
194WHP integra in previous example puts 1233lbft TQ to the ground in 2nd gear at 6000rpm with stock usdm type R tranny.
exact same car with 4.9 final drive in that tranny puts 1380lbft TQ to the ground in 2nd gear at 6000rpm

Guess what makes your car accelerate? It is TQ being put to the ground and WTQ you get on the dyno is estimated by dyno using gearing normalized to 1 which is why they mostly run dyno pulls in 4th gear so they can take tranny out of the picture for your dyno.

Do not forget all these trannys come from street cars, so they have to take into account speed, NVH and power delivery. In my opinion if your speed limit is 75MPH or you frequent the track where you can only get 120MPH tops or you trap 100MPH in 1/4. Why do you need the tranny that can go to 160MPH? Why not trade some of the top speed for power?

Long story short, engine power level is important, but I think you can see now that it is MUCH more important what tranny actually does with that power.

ninor

I agree that b20s do not make 180-200TQ, let say they make 150.
With GSR tranny that b20 will put down 1250lbft to the ground in 2nd gear
WIth usdm type r tranny and 4.9FD that same b20 will put 1550lbft to the ground in second gear.

Yes it is the same engine that makes 150wtq, guess which car is faster? How much faster?
In my example I am trying to provide you with engine equivalent of wtq when using different tranny, and believe it or not, to compensate for better tranny B20V would need to make 200WTQ to stay comparable to 150WTQ b20v with proper tranny all other things being equal.

burnerspeed

okay first off, Ninor thank you. you are giving me some incredible info here. really opening my eyes to something i had never really thought about. I do still have a few questions though. if i get an its tranny and put 4.9 final drive in it or if i use my gsr and put 4.9 final drive in it would i be reving to like 4500 at 120km on the hwy? it would be a little higher than it is now right? so id be gaining more torque but i would be a little less efficient on the why.

if i decided not to stay with the gsr and not shorten the gears would it still be pretty effective with the 4.9 final drive? and what your saying is that if i invest 1500$ into the tranny ill gain somewhere in the neighbourhood of 30lbs of torque? compared to 1500$ into the engine where id probably only gain like 10?

ninor

You welcome. I am sharing this info as I am trying to help. I have been in the same boat and did countless engine modifications to gain 5whp at 7500rpm. It gets expensive very fast and initially it might be easy to pick up a few hp, but after a while even major mods only give limited power increase (and usually cost power somewhere else in rpm) forcing you to start off again with bigger engine.

To clear one thing up first, tranny mods like final drive give power everywhere in rpm range. It is logical, as tranny is used to put power down if it is more efficient it will provide benefit throughout rpm range.
Take for example USDM type R tranny, it is excellent start point gears are spaced well and simple change of final drive will give you power increase across the entire rev range:
4.785 = 9% power increase
4.929 = 12% power increase.
How many mods will give you 12% more power at 1000, 2000, 3000 and so on rpm? You get the idea.

There is a few ways to gain power with tranny, but remember nothing is free (except in this case to some extent as you trade the top speed in given gear that you do not need anyway):
1 increase final drive is basic, very effective way to increase power in every single gear (as FD affects all the gears)
2 change gear ratio in any specific gear, yield even more power in that given gear.
3 change FD and gears together is the most potent combination

Example is type R tranny, stock one will do 249KM/h in 5th gear with 8400rpm and 205/50/15 tires (tires are critical part of this calc as changing tire size changes your FD as well, smaller diam= shorter FD= more power. ex 195/55/15 change to 205/50/15 is good for about 4% increase in power as 205 is smaller dia).
If you change FD in this above tranny from stock 4.4 to 4.9, you'll get 12% increase in amount of TQ put to the ground but your top speed is going to be reduced to ~220KM/h in 5th.
For future reference in all examples I am using 205/50/15 tire and engine redline of 8400rpm.
With USDM type R tranny, stock, at 120 km/h your rpm will be 4000 or so in 5th.
If you change FD to 4.9 on this tranny at 120km/h your rpm will be about 4500 in 5th.
If you have usdm type R tranny with 4.9FD, but you put in GSR 5th gear instead of type R at 120km/h you'll be around 4100rpm.
Another example is stock GSR tranny on this setup (like you have) at 120km/h you'll be around 3700 rpm in 5th.
Since you are in 5th on the hwy some people like to keep this in check because of crusing rpm, but the rest of the gears can be changed to get top acceleration.

Personally perfect DD setup is USDM type R tranny 4.9 FD, 3.07 first gear and 5th GSR gear.
This is so for a few reasons, changing FD will not change your shift points (as in rpm drop in next gear will remain the same as with taller FD), what changes is your speed and rate of acceleration. In order to change rpm shift points you have to change individual gears, FD change has no effect on this. This is the reason for 3.07 first as it is longer than 3.23 stock one and 1 to 2nd shift gains 300-400rpm. This is very important as some trannys will drop you out of VTEC in 1 to 2 nd shift, and I do not have to tell you what that does.
GSR tranny is brutal for NA car, 2nd 3rd and 4th are WAY too long, to compaund the issue 2nd is on the mainshaft so you have to change even that if you want to get type R second.
As an example of how long gears are on GSR tranny, you need 4.9 final on GSR just to have same 2nd gear like stock type R. This might be good sometimes, but not on 180whp motor, this is hurting your acceleration big time.
Honestly, if half the people knew what GSR tranny does to their all motor setup, they would go tomorrow morning and buy type R tranny with 4.9 final. IT IS THAT MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE.

GSR with 4.9 final is pretty good, but USDM type R with 4.9 is better. If money is an object get 4.9 for your tranny and you'll become a believer... Also talk to some old school US car guys, they'll tell you that you can never have enough gear in the car....

Of course these numbers and my examples do not mean much, but you should see the expression on people's face when they step out of stock type R with 4.9 final. They come out and spend 1/2 hour looking around the engine, trying to see the mods, priceless...

Anyway if you like to play you will find this tool very useful:
http://www.teammfactory.com/gear-calculator

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Yes. You would be effective with just the final drive. The only other thing to put in there is a proper Limited slip differential (Helical, not Torsen from the factory).

This is torque that cannot be accurately measured on the dyno in one gear, the torque created is from the transitional shift in gearing because it drop right into the sweet spot in the powerband into the next gear from the previous one.

You'd be about 20% engine load at 4300rpms-4400rpms at 80-83mph. [Ask me how I know this. ;-) ] And your maximum speed at about 8300rpms would be about 120-125mph.. that's it. But you could be a bit more subtle with the 4.785 FD, and gain a bit more.

Not the best vid, (its not me) but you get the idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPLLX4K-8gE

crxsi1

Good info goin w a type r trans and now I know some good combos..... U can have tons of power but if she ain't geared right she ain't goin anywhere... Good stuff

Krut

Very good info, I'm glad I invested in a 4.7fd ITR trans for my H2B setup its amazing

burnerspeed

Sounds like I'm getting a type r tranny lol. I guess ill build thr tranny and then build the engine. Then no one will know what hit them lol. But I do have one problem/question. When I'm on the hwy doing 120 I'm sittting at about 4200rpm. So with the itr ill be at 4500 and then with the 4.9 even higher if I don't put in a longer 5th gear? I just don't really like the idea of cruising around at 5k rpm.

ninor

What is the tire size on your car?

with 4.9 FD GSR 5th is a nice option, as I mentioned earlier, and if you like really low rpms LS 5th is an option. I personally find LS 5th way too low, sort of defeats the purpose of putting 4.9 FD in the first place, but this option is available to you should you care for that.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I did this already with my B16 4.9FD with an LS 5th gear. It just threw it out of the powerband after 4th gear and the cruising rpm speed and load.. I'll be going back to a GS-R 5th gear.

negusjuda

i also plan on getting a 4.9 final drive in my gsr trans mated to my b20vtec its mainly a daily driver should be pretty sweet on the street

burnerspeed

I currently have my snow tires on which are 14inch. But my summer tires are 15/50/205 I like the idea of putting in the gsr 5th gear to keep the cruising rpm down a little. Is there something that is in between ls and gsr for 5th gear?

ninor

I am not aware of any options between GSR and LS, but honestly GSR 5th with 4.9 FD is perfect for DD. It is pretty much identical to stock type r tranny 5th (about 100rpm more). My car actually uses less fuel (slightly but measurable) than with lower rpm 5th if that is a concern of yours. Also at my crusing speed 5th is just in AEM power hump at 4200-4300 so it moves very nicely, pretty much no need to downshift.
Anyway I asked for tire size as I do not understand how you could be at 4200 rpm doing 120km/h, Are you sure your tranny is stock GSR? Is there any chance that you might have B16 tranny?

burnerspeed

I thought for sure it was a gsr but now ill have to double check its an s80

negusjuda

tach might be off a lil i know mine is i know in 5th im around 4100 at 80 mph

DA is best

iTrader: (1)

h2b ftw

burnerspeed

Either way I think my next purchase will be a 4.7 final drive itr tranny. Then ill probably continue with my build on the engine so that the power is used more efficiently